roversfan99

Mid table consolidation would be fairly acceptable but theres nothing to fear in a competitive but at times, slightly overestimated league. From what we've seen so far, there is nothing to stop us from having half an eye on the play offs as an ambitious target, as long as people dont see that as the minimum expectation. There are a lot of teams in the bottom 7 or 8, Ipswich, Hull, Reading, Rotherham, Reading and Bolton (Preston should eventually move upwards) that are exactly where they are expected to be and, barring a collapse from ourselves, should provide a comfortable buffer above safet You look at teams like us, Wigan, Sheffield United, Norwich and Brentford, all teams in the top half who seem to be clubs looking up, working towards their full potential, but perhaps without the resources of Derby, Nottingham Forest, West Brom etc propping them up. Also, your final comment has been debated in depth in other threads, but needless to say that is an unfair representation on what most consider to be the main reasons as to why we arent drawing in more respectable attendances.

Disagree with your point regarding centre backs. Players who can fill in for half an hour mid-game or for 1 or 2 games max in someones absence, thats one thing, if Mulgrew or Lenihan are out for say a month or longer then you cant rely on someone out of position, as their lack of familiarity with that position will become abundantly clear. From the 3 you mention, Williams has experience of playing as one of a 3 at Bristol City, if he was to fill in here he wouldnt have that luxury. Rodwell has not played there regularly since his youth career and Nyambe only once or twice (I recall Hull at home and also a checkatrade game) and he looked like a fish out of water, for one he cant head a ball.

Theres no way that if Brereton started scoring goals and playing well, that people "wouldnt warm to him." The only reason that many arent convinced is because in his very limited cameos, one thing im keen to stress (limited game time), he has done nothing to suggest that he is going to stake a claim to be a regular in the side. What I have seen from Forest fans online has not been unanimous I must say, been split positive and negative, but one thing that is massively different, as much as we may want to pretend it isnt, is that at Forest, he was one of quite a few players (Worrall, Burke etc) that came through the academy, and I have seen a lot about "giving youth a chance" so Brereton would have been a torch bearer for the clubs academy. Here, he is a 7 million signing after a number of years of incredibly limited spending. Therefore the expectations/background is totally different.

Let me address your points individually: Give the young lad time - I only dont like this when its used as a counter-argument to people commenting on for example a poor performance. Yes hes very much a long term project, but as with anyone, we judge players performances as they go, on a game by game basis. If people think hes not playing well, then they think hes not playing well. The vast majority are aware that he is only young and bare that in mind. But obviously age alone is not a reason to spend such a massive amount of money, he has to offer something now. (Which I feel he did yesterday) Hope we have some way of wiggling out of the deal/that it isnt a done deal in January - That is constructive and a valid point, its clearly based on the assumption that the 7m can be spent on other players, and whether Ben Brereton was worth that amount or whether we should have spent it elsewhere. It has and always will be the big question because its such a big amount of money for us relative to spend in the last few years. The new Kevin Davies - I havent seen this used, but taking your word for it, I would agree that this is a lazy comparison based solely on price tag and reputation. I reserve my right to call them negative - Absolutely. Its just not a constructive criticism, nor does it add anything to the debate. The reason that I imagine that it riles people is that Brereton and everyone else receives total backing in the stadium, this is a messageboard where we can give an honest opinion without it impacting on the team.

I thought he was pretty good personally yesterday. I dont think he looks particularly good technically, and I think hes fighting a losing battle in that hes never a winger in a millon years. Bennett was often left 2 on 1 going backwards, and I dont recall him posing any threat to Peacock-Farrell at any point. That being said, he showed good intelligence and game management at times in a way that has been totally absent in his game prior to yesterday. He got us up the pitch a few times, he won a few free kicks (he loves throwing himself over) and I came away much more optimistic about him. My main point was regarding your second paragraph. "Stop being negative" and "Trust Tony" are not valid comebacks to anything said about Brereton, or indeed anyone else. All they do is shut down debate, which on a messageboard isnt ideal!

You've again missed my point which is that people should be able to comment on a messageboard freely without having shite like "stop being negative and trust Tony" shoved down their throat. Its an internet messageboard. I think he did pretty well, same as you, but seemingly I'm not as arrogant to pass that off as a undeniable fact, like you have.

If thats the case, which is an assumption rather than a fact. Then we should have looked into a more temporary addition to that position, as if either centre back gets a serious injury then we are goosed, and reliant on either sub par replacements (Downing) or players who arent centre backs. (Rodwell, Williams) Reed has not proven himself there yet to be fair. I wonder who will play when Nyambe comes back, as presuming he comes in at right back, whether thats instantly or after a few weeks, it looks a straight battle between Reed and Bennett for that "defensive winger" position unless Reed is pushed back into central midfield. An area where he will have competition. (Evans and Smallwood are 2 of Mowbrays favourites, and with Rodwell and even Davenport already in the mix) My point was not what his best qualities are. I feel that sometimes, due to the number of strengths that he has, (set pieces, composure on ball, reading of the game, leadership) his ability to actually do the dirty side of defending, stick his body on the line and head crosses away etc, is underestimated by our supporters. I also think in general, he is our most underrated player, and we will struggle to replace him when the time comes.

You do wonder what his position is long term. Norwich fans seem to think hes best at RB, whereas here hes making his name wide. He is, but the 2 arent mutually exclusive.

Looking around at 2 of the names frequently mentioned at the time of us signing Brereton, Windass who went to Wigan, and Marriott who went to Derby, I see both are starting to hit their stride at their new clubs.

I think that Mulgrew is just as capable of the "dirty stuff," he sticks his head in and his body in more than hes given credit for, and his leadership brings out the best out of at times a naive Lenihan, who is prone to an error or a rash decision much more than Mulgrew is. Obviously, Mulgrew has the extra dimension to his game in terms of his composure on the ball, and his set pieces, which I feel at time outshine the fact that he is a very good defender into the bargain. No one is more important to us than Mulgrew bar Dack I would say. That said, agree regarding Lenihans atheticisim and feel like they are a good match for each other. Basically, I dont think we could do without either.

Swansea are nothing to fear, a draw wouldnt be disastrous but theres no reason not to go there to add to the 3 wins weve got on the road this season. Raya Bennett Lenihan Mulgrew Williams Rodwell Evans Reed Dack Armstrong Graham Subs: Leutwiler, Bell, Smallwood, Conway, Palmer, Rothwell, Brereton

I wish people wouldnt keep resorting to this boring narrative of calling people negative, and to give people a chance and support them. "Trust Tony" is not a valid shut down of any arguments either. Hes earnt plenty of trust but creating an environment whereby any opinions contrary to what he does, or any criticisms of any of the players, are not permitted, would make this messageboard very boring indeed.

Surely Mulgrew must come under the category of severe worry should we lose him due to injury? Both of the centre backs were excellent yesterday, and the decision not to sign a centre back as a matter of urgency in the summer I fear would really bite us should either get injured. But Mulgrew is the main man and the steady hand back there.

We have as good a target man as we will be able to get in Graham. We need a winger and a centre back to push on a very talented squad.

One thing that particularly pleased me was set pieces and how weve looked at them in the week, found weaknesses and exploited them perfectly. Reason being that I feel that we can do better than we have been at set pieces, we might not have the biggest team but we dont pose enough of a threat from them IMO. I even commented on hoping that Reed would be taken off corners on here the other day. He then set up a goal from one within 2 minutes. Im not sure Dack as a 9 and Brereton wide really worked and I wouldnt play them in those positions again. Always felt that overlap was on for Leeds down the left towards the end and was just pleased that Barry Douglas wasnt playing. But a third midfielder was very useful.

I felt that it was incredibly harsh to drop both in favour of a player who has been poor this season, after being so good last. I suppose I would have to say that Mowbray may just have got that decision right...

Even in that post, there is an undercurrent of bitterness towards supporters simply giving an opinion on a messageboard, putting supporters in inverted commas being one. He has received complete support at the ground. This is a messageboard, away from where Brereton or anyone else can be affected by any opinions. If the Brereton bandwagon that you speak of were booing and jeering him at games it would be a different ball game. The fan base is united behind and trusting of Mowbray, but that doesnt mean that they cant develop opinions contrary to that of the manager. I trust Mowbray but I still think that signing Gladwin was a massive mistake, to give you an extreme example. The reason he gets so much conversation surrounded him based on less game time than many others is because of the price. Its not that people dont appreciate that hes young, but theres a natural fascination because relative to recent years, he cost a monumental amount. For some perspective, I reiterate that I think he did well today.

And Palmer made the goal with a superb bit of individuality in the last game. Rothwell has also done plenty to warrant a game. Excellent team performance and them 2 spent the afternoon getting splinters in their backsides and we still have them waiting to improve us further.

Whilst I agree that its needless to bring it into the debate as it was just then, you obviously posted what your job was on here in the first place for him to know! But agree with you. Irrelevant to the thread.

I wouldnt even say that. Comparing again to Keans time here, he was very much a symptom of the problem, and he also received a heavy amount of fan ire. McCarthy was very much overachieving in spite of the root problem. He wasnt even a symptom. I also do wonder if McCarthy feels any resentment towards the funds that Hurst has been able to spend this summer? He may have been able to make his sides easier on the eye as well as effective.

Didnt you say the other day that one of the reasons that surcharges arent an issue is because people dont just decide on the day to attend, something you personally have never done.

Which is why they should have kept a manager perfect for working on such a budget with consistent overachievement.

Negative comments/snipes would only be a worry if they were in the ground, as you said he was appreciated when he did things well today at the ground (I thought he did pretty well in the main today and was improved on previous appearances) and no one has turned on him even in prior cameos when he has looked poor. If someone plays crap, or does something that doesnt impress, people are entitled to come on here and say so. Nearly everyone today acknowledged him being played out of position, no one has suggested that hes not trying, and obviously people on here arent "experts." Some people seem to have totally forget what a messageboard is. A place to air opinions, both positive and negative. Everyone has their own opinions of how we should play etc, ive heard plenty of people say things like this player played poorly, this player should have played instead, this formation should have been used, this substitute should have been made, but never that Mowbray should be replaced by themselves. We are in a thread dedicated to Ben Brereton. If he plays poorly in peoples opinion, people will state as much.

Ipswich continuing to regret the sacking of the man keeping them in the League. Wigan doing almost identical to us, 2 very similar teams, Cook doing a very good job there. Thought Stoke were about to turn a corner and very surprised by Birmingham winning there. Swansea will be an interesting game midweek. I dont think they will be in the play off hunt, not enough quality, depth or experience for me.

As jim said, your stupid "regardless of cost" comment. Say stupid things, expect to be laughed at.