[Archived] Stephen Warnock

[Tris]

The sooner he (or Bentley for that matter) get in the England squad, sooner they'll be upping sticks and leaving little ol' Rovers for a "bigger club".

No thanks, stuff England, lets keep them a nicely guarded secret.

Don't agree at all.

For a start this league is broadcast to hundreds of countries worldwide and scouted relentlessly from both within the league and abroad - there simply is no such thing as a regular 1st team player who is a "closely guarded secret".

You might as well argue that we don't want to be getting to cup semis or cup finals, because someone might see our good players!

And more to the point, the longer our players are overlooked for the international recognition they deserve, the more likely they are to think sod this for a laugh, no Rovers players get picked for England, best move to Spurs (which appears to lead to an automatic call up to the national squad).

Get them in the squad McLaran you oaf, and quick about it.

[T4E]

Don't agree at all.

For a start this league is broadcast to hundreds of countries worldwide and scouted relentlessly from both within the league and abroad - there simply is no such thing as a regular 1st team player who is a "closely guarded secret".

You might as well argue that we don't want to be getting to cup semis or cup finals, because someone might see our good players!

And more to the point, the longer our players are overlooked for the international recognition they deserve, the more likely they are to think sod this for a laugh, no Rovers players get picked for England, best move to Spurs (which appears to lead to an automatic call up to the national squad).

Get them in the squad McLaran you oaf, and quick about it.

There are certainly examples of excellent English players who have been overlooked for England because they play for smaller clubs - Kevin Nolan and Joey Barton to name two. Not quite closely guarded secrets, but obviously not in the limelight of a Michael Carrick, and therefore still at their clubs.

Appearances at international tournaments have hastened the exits of many Rovers players in recent years - Lucas Neill, Damien Duff and Alan Shearer being the most obvious examples. There is a direct corrolation between this exposure and players looking to move on. There is no such corrolation between this event and a successful cup run.

Bentley and Warnock will, in my opinion, leave Rovers at some point and move on to bigger things. The best we can hope for is that this is delayed for as long as possible. Being in the England squad will only quicken the process.

[rover6]

I'm not bothered really because I'm not that big on England generally with our crap coach and narcissistic players.

Obviously, international recognition can hasten the departure of a player but it can also lengthen their stay, theoretically, because they do not feel as if they need to move to gain sufficient exposure to get the call-up they covet. But certainly with the Duff experience and even David Dunn, international call-ups haven't been great for Rovers.

I'm guessing that if England were a team we could feel proud of, more of us would be gagging to see Rovers players in that squad. Or perhaps, more to the point, if international football was something that we could get excited about, more of us would be concerned about the England squad.

The last few international tournaments have been severely underwhelming - not just from an England perspective. Maybe I'm putting my apathy on stilts here, but is international football on the wane?

[stuwilky]

6, are you ever going to remove the comments about Aaron Mokoena from your signature? I know you like slagging off youth players, but arguable the best player of recent months?

[rover6]

I will replace it with a humble apology to Mr Mokoena when the time is ripe. But yeah, I think he deserves to be erased from my sale campaign.

[rover_groo]

Appearances at international tournaments have hastened the exits of many Rovers players in recent years

And many of these sales have been at top prices!

I wonder would this have been the case if Ciccio made that step. Could have doubled his fee for what we paid for him.

Imagine a lucrative £13.5 million for our beloved Italian!! Well it would leave you thinking after all this corruption in Italy!!

[T4E]

Are you suggesting that we were better off with the money than we were with the players? Money is no good if you spend it badly. In both Shearer and Duff situations we'd have been far better off retaining the services of the players than being given £32m to squander.

[Tris]

I'm not bothered really because I'm not that big on England generally with our crap coach and narcissistic players.

Obviously, international recognition can hasten the departure of a player but it can also lengthen their stay, theoretically, because they do not feel as if they need to move to gain sufficient exposure to get the call-up they covet. But certainly with the Duff experience and even David Dunn, international call-ups haven't been great for Rovers.

I'm guessing that if England were a team we could feel proud of, more of us would be gagging to see Rovers players in that squad. Or perhaps, more to the point, if international football was something that we could get excited about, more of us would be concerned about the England squad.

The last few international tournaments have been severely underwhelming - not just from an England perspective. Maybe I'm putting my apathy on stilts here, but is international football on the wane?

Hmm. Load of rubbish.

I can't wait to feel the pride of seeing "Blackburn Rovers" next to some full England squad players. It's been far too long. OK the current coach is an idiot, but if you can't get excited by the big tournaments every couple of years (whether England are involved or not) then I wonder what really motivates you as a fan of football.

It's much better live than from the armchair by the way. That's probably why you're underwhelmed.

[Perth_Rover]

Indeed LeChuck. I'm in agreement with you and I was certainly one of those unsure persons from this board. I thought from what I had seen of him, that he was a tad inexperienced and needed to have an experienced centre-half playing along side him, in order to keep him in toe. His ability on the ball is second to none and is certainly up their with the best attacking full-backs. Great to see him notch his 1st goal for Rovers and I can see him getting a few more. Would be a nice wee player in next season's Dream Team, as he should get a few assists.

I still can't believe that he's 27!! Man he still can get around the pitch, nearly as fast as I could in my late-teens!! Just hopefully he can keep him injury & suspension free, as he can be prone to both of these bad boys!

I have to disagree from a non-biased view, but Warnock is a better alround player than Bridge.

Bridge has been over-rated since his early days and has struggled to keep them consistant. However, in fariness Cashley does shade it.

Do we really need to compare him with luCASH?

Mr Warnock for me anyday.

Mr Warnock is 25 turning 26 in december, not 27 yet........

[neekoy]

The last few international tournaments have been severely underwhelming - not just from an England perspective. Maybe I'm putting my apathy on stilts here, but is international football on the wane?

Absolutely not, International football over the last couple of years has seen the rise of competitive levels of some of the 'younger' footballing countries and the development of more players from Asia and Africa into the fray.

South American football in general is argueably at it's strongest point in history, and more competition from the leightweights of European football.

I think the substandard performances of some heavyweights like England, Holland and Argentina have only made the platform better to watch.

Oh, and Warnock has been a sterling buy from Sparky

[broadsword]

There are certainly examples of excellent English players who have been overlooked for England because they play for smaller clubs - Kevin Nolan and Joey Barton to name two. Not quite closely guarded secrets, but obviously not in the limelight of a Michael Carrick, and therefore still at their clubs.

Appearances at international tournaments have hastened the exits of many Rovers players in recent years - Lucas Neill, Damien Duff and Alan Shearer being the most obvious examples. There is a direct corrolation between this exposure and players looking to move on. There is no such corrolation between this event and a successful cup run.

Bentley and Warnock will, in my opinion, leave Rovers at some point and move on to bigger things. The best we can hope for is that this is delayed for as long as possible. Being in the England squad will only quicken the process.

OK, let's get our statistical facts straight. Correlation is a measure of association, not causation, so it's not necessarily teh appearance at a major tournament that hastens their departure. It could be that being at a tournament is a factor that is confounded with a player being in exceptional form. Scouts attend domestic league matches primarily, after all. A manager doesn't get the chequebook out just because Damien Duff is at Japan. No, for that amount of money, they watch him numerous times in the league, and weigh out the cash if they think he's good enough. Similarly, an international manager only includes a player in his squad if he thinks they're good enough.

Alan Shearer left 11 years ago, is that really "in recent years"? You only have two other examples, I don't think this is sufficient to prove your point. Incidentally it was over 6 months after the World Cup that Lucas Neill went, and Liverpool were after Duff for ages before the 2002 World Cup ... there was significant interest in him before he played in Japan.

You may as well say you hope that Bentley doesn't play well for us, because it would mean someone will want to buy him. Or maybe we should put him in teh reserves, so that no-one will want him?

In my view, a good performance at a tournament doesn't hasten a player's departure (unless they're a complete unknown from Africa or something like that), but it can increase their final sale value.

Incidentally - how many Michael Carricks are there?

[rover_groo]

Are you suggesting that we were better off with the money than we were with the players? Money is no good if you spend it badly. In both Shearer and Duff situations we'd have been far better off retaining the services of the players than being given £32m to squander.

No certainly not Tugay. In fact it left us in a position where we struggled to replace them, hence hit poor form and got us in severe trouble.

Nonetheless, we actually have done remarkably well this season in fact of selling one of our key players, if not the key to last year's success.

Mr Warnock is 25 turning 26 in december, not 27 yet........

Perth, we all learn something new everyday.

I was going from what my mind was telling me. I've finally lost the plot now.

Back on topic, this is one of the finest left-backs Rovers have ever signed in my years of supporting them.

Hopefully gone are the days of Mr Davidson, Mr Perez and Mr Croft.

[LeftWinger]

Appearances at international tournaments have hastened the exits of many Rovers players in recent years

On the other hand - there is the non-appearance at a major tournament by Matt Jansen - and we all know how sadly that turned out...

[T4E]

Alan Shearer left 11 years ago, is that really "in recent years"? You only have two other examples, I don't think this is sufficient to prove your point. Incidentally it was over 6 months after the World Cup that Lucas Neill went, and Liverpool were after Duff for ages before the 2002 World Cup ... there was significant interest in him before he played in Japan.

What constitutes "recent years" is somewhat irrelevant in this case. Perhaps "in recent memory" would be more to your liking? :-P

As regards Lucas Neill - he's a prime example of my point. His performances at the World Cup prompted Henk Ten Cate to remark that he would be good enough to play for Barcelona. This undoubtedly increased speculation about his future. Prior to that I find it very hard to believe that West Ham would have considered paying him £60k per week. Suddenly he became desireable as it was suggested he would be good enough for Barca.

Look at Owen Hargreaves - before the last World Cup he was regularly pillored by all and sundry. A couple of good games for England and suddenly Man United are willing to spend £20m on him.

You may as well say you hope that Bentley doesn't play well for us, because it would mean someone will want to buy him. Or maybe we should put him in teh reserves, so that no-one will want him?

In my view, a good performance at a tournament doesn't hasten a player's departure (unless they're a complete unknown from Africa or something like that), but it can increase their final sale value.

The tournament point is only one aspect of what I am saying. Playing for England makes players more desireable to the bigger clubs, Carrick again being the prime example. Another is Darren Bent - didn't West Ham offer £18m for him in January? Would that have come without international recognition? Do you think Arsenal spent £10m on Jeffers purely because of his form for Everton?

[Uxbridge rover]

Hopefully gone are the days of Mr Davidson, Mr Perez and Mr Croft.

Perez wasn't a left back and I thought he was a quality player, all be it for the 5 mins he was here

[Eddie]

Look at Owen Hargreaves - before the last World Cup he was regularly pillored by all and sundry. A couple of good games for England and suddenly Man United are willing to spend £20m on him.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't believe this is a good example. Owen Hargreaves wasn't appreciated by football supporters but anyone who had seen him play for Bayern would have known what a good player he is. I highly doubt that United's scouting system is so poor that they rely on a tournament that takes place once every 4 years in order to assess potential players. The world cup can certainly bring players to the attention of clubs and increase their value, but I'm not really worried about Rovers players having that exposure. Afterall, with the exception of a Neillesque situation, their value will be inflated and we will be in a position to replace the player. I thikn all of the players you picked would have recieved interest from the clubs in mention at the time, but certainly their value goes up because of their international call-ups, which makes sense.

[rover_groo]

Hopefully gone are the days of Mr Davidson, Mr Perez and Mr Croft.

Perez wasn't a left back and I thought he was a quality player, all be it for the 5 mins he was here

I know Perez was a midfielder, but unless my eyes deceived me badly, I'm sure he played at left-back when providing cover.

Didn't he set in place of Davidson? I think if memory serves me correctly, when he scored in the UEFA Cup in the 2-2 draw to Lyon I think he was in the defence. Who knows?

[broadsword]

Yes, "recent memory" is much better, good lad :-)

Undoubtedly tehre are cases where a player does very well at a tournament and puts himself in the shop window. But I feel that just serves to increase his value, it doesn't mean clubs suddenly become interested in them when they weren't before.

Are you seriously telling me if Bentley doesn't play for England we'll keep him longer? I don't think so. He'll probably get a move to a "big" club so he can get into the England team then.

Jeffers - he didn't sign for Arsenal on teh back of a fantastic tournament performance for england, I think you'll find. Spending £10m on his was an abberative decision by Wenger, based on Franny's potential and also being teh sort of player he was, which Arsenal didn't have.

Darren Bent - played for England once I think it was, looked out of his depth. West Bam offered £18m for him because they have too much cash and Curbishley used to manage him.

Carrick - didn't pull up any trees at the World Cup did he? Don't know why Fergie spent so much money on him, but then they are trying to fill the gap left by Roy Keane.

Hargreaves - yes, the public now suddenly rate him but I think you'll find that Fergie was after him before the World Cup. What he's done is to increase his valuation, he hasn't got his move yet.

Neill - perhaps this fits more with your theory, because he's from a lesser nation. However, when he finally did go, only 2 clubs were in for him, and this is in the last 6 months of his contract. He finally gets his move, to another Premier club who know all about his aggression. Did his World Cup performances have any bearing on it? Not really. Were Barca offering us money straight after the World Cup? No, they weren't.

I think we're more likely to keep Bentley longer if he does play for England.

[key76]

I know Perez was a midfielder, but unless my eyes deceived me badly, I'm sure he played at left-back when providing cover.

Didn't he set in place of Davidson? I think if memory serves me correctly, when he scored in the UEFA Cup in the 2-2 draw to Lyon I think he was in the defence. Who knows?

Perez was a right back, before deciding he was homesick and buggered off to Marseille.

[thenodrog]

Perez was a right back, before deciding he was homesick and buggered off to Marseille.

Before deciding that he wasn't all that homesick after all and buggering off to Galataseray.... I think.

btw Warnocks looking our best left back since Le Saux imo.

[Eddie]

Perez went to Marseille? I thought he went back to Corsica?

[T4E]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't believe this is a good example. Owen Hargreaves wasn't appreciated by football supporters but anyone who had seen him play for Bayern would have known what a good player he is. I highly doubt that United's scouting system is so poor that they rely on a tournament that takes place once every 4 years in order to assess potential players. The world cup can certainly bring players to the attention of clubs and increase their value, but I'm not really worried about Rovers players having that exposure. Afterall, with the exception of a Neillesque situation, their value will be inflated and we will be in a position to replace the player. I thikn all of the players you picked would have recieved interest from the clubs in mention at the time, but certainly their value goes up because of their international call-ups, which makes sense.

Owen Hargreaves is the perfect example. People that watched a lot of him knew exactly how good he was. Exactly the same as Bentley. However it took a few good performances on the biggest stage of all to push him towards World Class status and justify United's interest in him.

Prior to the World Cup, we all would've laughed our backsides off at United offering £20m for Hargreaves. Now it doesn't seem too ridiculous at all. It's no coincidence.

[mike at picture]

Perez went to Marseille? I thought he went back to Corsica?

Are you thinking of Patrick Valery who came from Bastia? Or am I typing b*llocks again?

[Eddie]

We signed Perez from Bastia. Just did a quick look on the Marseille website and he went back to Bastia before then going to Marseille a season later.

We also bought Valery from Bastia before then selling him back to Bastia...Corsicans.

[broadsword]

Owen Hargreaves is the perfect example. People that watched a lot of him knew exactly how good he was. Exactly the same as Bentley. However it took a few good performances on the biggest stage of all to push him towards World Class status and justify United's interest in him.

Prior to the World Cup, we all would've laughed our backsides off at United offering £20m for Hargreaves. Now it doesn't seem too ridiculous at all. It's no coincidence.

How is Owen Hargreaves a perfect example of "a direct corrolation between this exposure and players looking to move on." and the World Cup "hastening his exit"?

You yourself state that United had an interest in him before the World Cup, and he himself has wanted to play in England for a number of years.

What influence a changed public perception of him has on his desire to leave and United's willingness to buy have I just don't know. All his World Cup performances have changed is his valuation, nothing else.

So I don't think Hargreaves is a perfect example of what you're saying, unless I have misintepreted your post.