[Archived] Rovers V Stoke

[thenodrog]

Your right he will probably move on in the summer for a good fee and we'll be left with less than half to spend on his replacement.

You'll never get any argument from me about unearthing new talent and developing them, it would just be nice to see them given a chance on the pitch so they can actually develop.

Guess we have to pray to god that Cannon can get the academy working ASAP.

Think positive if we can sell big Chris for 12m (wild stab) and we are given half of that then given that we only gave approx 400k for him then we should be able to unearth 15 more jusat like him.

Is it only me that thinks that giving our managers money to spend is a waste of time and resources? It's like a curse. Apart from the SAS Kenny put the Champions together very cheaply, Hughes worked better with little than he is doing now with megabucks and in between all the bad moves by Harford, Hodgson, Kidd, GS and SA were the big money players. Dailly, Ostenstad, Davies, Cole, Kalinic (to date) Grabbi, MacAteer, Per Frandsen, Ferguson, Amoruso, Blake, Ward, Yorke ....... the list of overpriced players goes on and on.

Again leave out the SAS and our best signings have all been unearthed on the cheap rather than bought. Tugay, Berg, Speedie, Ripley, Freidel, Le Saux, Gale, Samba, Sherwood, Wright, Hendry, Bentley, Warnock all cost buttons whilst Duff and Dunn came through from the youth set up.

Pick two teams from those lists and imo the 'cheepies' would beat the billy big times 9 times out of 10 imo. Even with the GK's, Flowers was good and not regarded as a waste of money but even so Souey's bargain basement signing Brad Freidel is better by some distance.

To be fair there is a middle ground of expensive but OK. Jansen, Bellamy, Batty, Flitty, Gallagher, Bohinen, Warhurst etc were all good players but no better than the 'bargains'.

Bin the Academy completely and improve the scouting network

Totally agree.

btw Didn't the club overhaul the scouting system last season?

[Tom]

In fairness N'Zonzi looks like he could be a bargain of the Samba mould at present.

Kalinic could come good but at the minute smacks of a panic buy, we needed a striker, saw that Pompey were close to signing one in our price range and rushed into it. As someone said why the hell isn't he even playing in the reserves? The lad needs game time.

[Majiball]

Think positive if we can sell big Chris for 12m (wild stab) and we are given half of that then given that we only gave approx 400k for him then we should be able to unearth 15 more jusat like him.

Is it only me that thinks that giving our managers money to spend is a waste of time and resources? It's like a curse. Apart from the SAS Kenny put the Champions together very cheaply, Hughes worked better with little than he is doing now with megabucks and in between all the bad moves by Harford, Hodgson, Kidd, GS and SA were the big money players. Dailly, Ostenstad, Davies, Cole, Kalinic (to date) Grabbi, MacAteer, Per Frandsen, Ferguson, Amoruso, Blake, Ward, Yorke ....... the list of overpriced players goes on and on.

Again leave out the SAS and our best signings have all been unearthed on the cheap rather than bought. Tugay, Berg, Speedie, Ripley, Freidel, Le Saux, Gale, Samba, Sherwood, Wright, Hendry, Bentley, Warnock all cost buttons whilst Duff and Dunn came through from the youth set up.

Pick two teams from those lists and imo the 'cheepies' would beat the billy big times 9 times out of 10 imo. Even with the GK's, Flowers was good and not regarded as a waste of money but even so Souey's bargain basement signing Brad Freidel is better by some distance.

To be fair there is a middle ground of expensive but OK. Jansen, Bellamy, Batty, Flitty, Gallagher, Bohinen, Warhurst etc were all good players but no better than the 'bargains'.

Totally agree.

btw Didn't the club overhaul the scouting system last season?

OMG, I'm agreeing with you again, it certainly does seem that way especially in recent times. I just wish I could share your optimisum that when Samba leaves we'll A) get all the money & B ) be adle to sign 15 more like him. Perhaps we should say to Sam you can't spend more than £3million on any one player??

[JAL]

Bin the Academy completely and improve the scouting network

Well said Bryan, I think its unforgiveable that the way Downes was allowed to keep being non productive year on year for the club.

[den]

No offence but did you watch the game with your eyes shut and a bag on your head?

Grella can't pass or tackle??? Have you been sniffing glue?

i'm not saying he was amazing, but he was by no means absysmal.

Seems like you have a hatred of all things Ince related

You make some good points in support of Grella super arran.

Read the thread and you'll find I'm not on my own.

[John]

Think positive if we can sell big Chris for 12m (wild stab) and we are given half of that then given that we only gave approx 400k for him then we should be able to unearth 15 more jusat like him.

If only it was that simple....

[PAFELL]

How is Kalinic going to adjust to Premier League as Sam says he needs to if he doesn't play?

Did not Sam say that some of the signings during the close season may not get used until at least half way in the season. We do not know the complete plan for such players as Kalinic and junior etc - apart from what Sam has already said. Maybe, like the players, we have to wait a bit more.

It would not surprise me if players such as Roberts , diouf and pedersen are being given a chance - maybe last chance to prove themselves - after all in Kalinic and junior these are possible replacements - plus money when the likes of Pederson, Roberts, Bennie Mac maybe diouf are sold in Jan - will help to strengthen further.

[DP]

Interesting opinion from Thenodrog, although he's glossed it over nicely to suit. Lots of 1-2 mill signings in there that've been classed as either bargains and expensive pays, especially when you consider how much transfers were inflated at the tail end of the 90s. Also pretty obvious that most of the real overpriced duds came in the relegation season when 2 managers attempted to buy their way out of trouble.

I think what is pretty obvious though (and why I do kind of agree with Gordon) is that it's nigh on impossible these days to be successful, and make money. The only team who regularly finish in the top 4 with a decent business model is Arsenal, but then when was the last time they won a trophy?

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Yes I'd agree Grella was involved more in the game, his style of play is to press the opponents and put tackles in. He does add that to our game but his total lack of pace and tendancy to lose possession in bad postions could have very well cost us today. I'd argue this is a much greater sin than Andrews infrequent but accurate passes.

I've never stated that I'm happy that Andrews is in the starting line-up because on overall performance he's of low Premiership standard and we really could do with a better quality player in central midfield alongside Nzonzi. But of the current players at our disposal we currentley don't have anyone better than Keef in my opinion.

It was one good pass in 45 minutes actually, he came off at half-time today. If you add that to a similiar pass against Fulham, he's actually created two very good one-on-one chances for Di Santo in the last two games. Which isn't bad for a player who's supposedly meant to be the worst player ever according to some people. I must admit I'm not a fan of his defending style, he does seem to deploy the ol' handing waving routine whilst not actually putting any tackles in but he does at least work-hard at tracking back. I just think all this Andrews bashing is getting a little tedious, I could understand people highlighting the poor parts of his play but then to totally disregard anything he does well just makes me think people have got some sort of personal vendetta against Keef.

I have no axe to grind against Super Keith - but thought we looked better in midfield in the second half. For me- much of that was down to Grella. Grella isn't the best player in the world - but is far more solid than Andrews.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

What amazes me - lots of people on here seem to think that Stoke are some form of push over. They weren't that last year - and looked to have improved this year.

IMO they played the perfect away performance - defending in two banks of four and then hitting us at pace on the break.

A point was fair - and our performance was no way as bad as some people are making out.

At some point you have to give credit to the opposition. I remember under Hughes us getting bullied by Portsmouth - they basically out battled us at home. This could easily have been another of those matches - but the team (on the whole) put in the effort to ensure we won at least a point.

As for 4-5-1 - when playing against a well organised defence like Stoke - having runners from midfield can sometimes work. What is sadly lacking is consistent passing from our midfield.

For me Emerton stood out - his work rate was excellent, passing on the whole good - and he added much needed pace to the team.

[champions1995]

Stoke are a decent side and will almost certainly pay no part in the relegation scrap. Defensively they are strong and have conceeded just 15 goals in 14 matches, they are tough to beat at home and have improved dramatically away. Stoke have lost only four times this season, with three of those defeats coming against 'big four' clubs. Away from home they are taking points and are much harder to beat than they were last year, winning one, drawing four and losing two.

I can't believe some people have the impression Stoke are push overs and I believe the result really isn't as bad as some people are making out. Yes it was a home game and was winnable, but we can't expect to win every home game.

I thought Emerton was oustanding and was easily our best player, fully deserving the man of the match award.

[ABBEY]

If we now are of the thinking stoke arnt a team we should be beating at home then I think its the day blackburn rovers started dying...all the big 4 to come man its bleak

[cletus]

Witnessed a couple of missiles being thrown by the Stoke fans yesterday. Plastic bottles full of some kind of fluid being hurled from the top tier onto Rovers fans below.

[thenodrog]

If we now are of the thinking stoke arnt a team we should be beating at home then I think its the day blackburn rovers started dying...all the big 4 to come man its bleak

Of course we should think of beating them at home Abbey but with an away record of 1-4-2 the possibility of not doing so is very real. Personally if I was a betting man and a neutral I'd have gone for a draw.

Yesterday both teams were fairly toothless but it was an absorbing and energetic contest all the same between two teams that virtually cancelled each other out. imo any hope of a win for us disappeared as Dunny walked off and Roberts was preferred to Benny Mac. Stoke are strong and well organised throughout the team and especially so in defence. Skill, creativity and vision is needed to break them down and we all know that Jase does not possess much of any of those qualities.

[super_arran]

You make some good points in support of Grella super arran.

Read the thread and you'll find I'm not on my own.

Watch the game (not just the ball) and you'll find out you're pretty much wrong.

Take note how Grella is affective in the centre of the field. He gets in good positions defencivley and on the counter attack. He is there to break down the oppositions play (see the first half at Fulham) not to run box to box.

His distribution is key to his game and he did that very well yesterday. Granted he got caught in possesion once or twice but his overall game was solid.

He put in some good tackles yesterday; as well as roughing up their midfield quite well.

Like I said, he's no world beater but he's not as bad as people are making out.

[den]

Watch the game (not just the ball) and you'll find out you're pretty much wrong.

Take note how Grella is affective in the centre of the field. He gets in good positions defencivley and on the counter attack. He is there to break down the oppositions play (see the first half at Fulham) not to run box to box.

His distribution is key to his game and he did that very well yesterday. Granted he got caught in possesion once or twice but his overall game was solid.

He put in some good tackles yesterday; as well as roughing up their midfield quite well.

Like I said, he's no world beater but he's not as bad as people are making out.

You write that as fact.

I watched the game. His passing skills are poor as are KA's. Yes, they can both pass the ball, but everyone can pass a ball. However, there are players with vision* who can see an opening, can stroke the ball around majestically hardly giving it away, can weight a pass perfectly and can put the ball in front of the player. Others can pass it.

I'm talking quality, or lack of it. Tugay was quality and that's what is needed. Watch Nzonzi pass a ball. He's a better passer of the ball than those two. He's far more involved in the game as well and nowhere near their age.

*neither KA, nor Grella have vision. That's why we are so poor as a team with them in the side. No flair or creativity.

All an opinion of course.

[super_arran]

You write that as fact.

I watched the game. His passing skills are poor as are KA's. Yes, they can both pass the ball, but everyone can pass a ball. However, there are players with vision who can see an opening, can stroke the ball around majestically hardly giving it away, can weight a pass perfectly and can put the ball in front of the player. Others can pass it.

I'm talking quality, or lack of it. Tugay was quality and that's what is needed. Watch Nzonzi pass a ball. He's a better passer of the ball than those two. He's far more involved in the game as well and nowhere near their age.

I do write in fact because that's exactly what I saw.

His passing is poor??

You're absolutly crackers my friend.

Granted N'zonzi is a decent player but if you watch the game you'll see he only passes sideways or backwards and very rarely sets up an attack.

Grella played some superb balls yesterday, some sent Roberts or Emerton through down the right wing some played straight to Robert's & Di Santos feet.

Watch the game again and you'll see it was mainly Grella's passes in the second half that set up our counter attacks.

But I'm guessing you wouldn't of seen this with your blinkers on.

p.s. we were spoilt a bit by having Tugay.

It's like saying Nelsen is rubbish because he doesn't play like Hendry

[thenodrog]

Watch the game (not just the ball) and you'll find out you're pretty much wrong.

Take note how Grella is affective in the centre of the field. He gets in good positions defencivley and on the counter attack. He is there to break down the oppositions play (see the first half at Fulham) not to run box to box.

His distribution is key to his game and he did that very well yesterday. Granted he got caught in possesion once or twice but his overall game was solid.

He put in some good tackles yesterday; as well as roughing up their midfield quite well.

Like I said, he's no world beater but he's not as bad as people are making out.

I agree. My only problem with Grella is not his ability but his fitness. If he could only stay fit Im sure that he'd be a big player for us.

[den]

But I'm guessing you wouldn't of seen this with your blinkers on.

They aren't blue and white spectacles though.

[super_arran]

They aren't blue and white spectacles though.

Maybe you should just use your eyes then.

(not being petty or anything, but in that last reply you've kind of admitted to being blinkered in some way)

[den]

Maybe you should just use your eyes then.

(not being petty or anything, but in that last reply you've kind of admitted to being blinkered in some way)

That's the normal charge when anything in a blue and white shirt is criticised.

[super_arran]

That's the normal charge when anything in a blue and white shirt is criticised.

You missed out the word "wrongly", wrongly critisied.

If you'd of wrote something even close to the truth then we wouldn't be having this discusion.

I've said it before but you do seem to dislike all things that are Ince related with such bias.

I agree with your point of Andrews being rubbish yesterday. But regarding Grella; I think you're as wide of the mark as you can possibly get.

[den]

I've said it before but you do seem to dislike all things that are Ince related with such bias.

Ridiculous.

It's a viewpoint that many agree with and many don't. You just put it down to bias though. No point in discussions when that's the format.

[super_arran]

Ridiculous.

It's a viewpoint that many agree with and many don't. You just put it down to bias though. No point in discussions when that's the format.

Thats the only thing I can come up with when you're critising a player who didn't actually play that badly.

Either I'm right with my assumption (sp?) or the other option you have is that there's no point discussing it any further because you've not got a leg to stand on.

Granted N'zonzi is a decent player but if you watch the game you'll see he only passes sideways or backwards and very rarely sets up an attack.

Grella played some superb balls yesterday, some sent Roberts or Emerton through down the right wing some played straight to Robert's & Di Santos feet.

Watch the game again and you'll see it was mainly Grella's passes (edit. all but a few) in the second half that set up our counter attacks.

Please explain these facts if what you say is true....

[den]

Either I'm right with my assumption (sp?) or the other option you have is that there's no point discussing it any further because you've not got a leg to stand on.

I and plenty more don't think he played well. The reason there's not much point discussing it with yourself, is that you think everyone who disagrees with you is biased. So what's the point?