[Archived] London riots

[Stuart]

Triple punishement sounds too lenient to me...

[JAL]

Nonsense, they've done a perfectly good job of that themselves.

I could be wrong but it seems to me you condone their actions, committing criminal damage, theft and public order.

Ask yourself this JAL, when the people of Jarrow in 1936 decided to march to London to protest about unemployment and social deprivation, did they smash up their own town first ? I don't think there's any record of that in the history books.

This lot are thieving, opportunistic scroats.

Just read it again AS, please, rather than selecting half a sentence.

As for thieving scroats, I look at my pension plan in bewilderment at its failure to reach the targets it originally set out to achieve. Just who are the thieving, opportunistic, scroats, I ask as it would seem they are at both ends of our society.

You got it wrong (and so are we) by assuming the government can "fix" the job situation. It can't. If you want jobs you need business. If you want more business, you lower taxes and reduce regulation.

The answer is not social welfare, it's work. But you won't create the incentive to work when you have a country embracing the concept it is our fault for not providing opportunity (i.e. benefits), as opposed to holding the thieves, burglars and muggers to severe account.

/quote]

I never mentioned governments SM.

[broadsword]

The miscreants are being punished through the courts with fines and jail sentences so taking away benefits would be a double punishment. If you read the newspapers (which I doubt) you also might have noticed that many of the troublemakers are not benefits claimants but people in jobs, some of them very respectable jobs. Perhaps you might suggest how these people should be doubly-punished too.

Make them spend an afternoon with you talking politics.

[Tris]

Now if you want a debate about Tory economic mismanagement 1979 -97, and why disaffected youths are again torching inner cities under a Conservative adminstration, please carry on.

you also might have noticed that many of the troublemakers are not benefits claimants but people in jobs, some of them very respectable jobs.

A dozen posts trying to score political points and claiming this was only to do with lack of prospects and inner city poverty - disaffected youths...

And then an unlucky 13th which has blown your previous contributions on the subject straight out of the water. These were criminals who didn't need to be stealing from the innocent, but were just out for a jolly at anyone's expense.

At least you've finally seen what has been obvious to everyone else all week.

[Steve Moss]

I never mentioned governments SM.

Fair enough. My apologies.

[adopted scouser]

[Steve Moss]

+100.

[jim mk2]

A dozen posts trying to score political points and claiming this was only to do with lack of prospects and inner city poverty - disaffected youths...

And then an unlucky 13th which has blown your previous contributions on the subject straight out of the water. These were criminals who didn't need to be stealing from the innocent, but were just out for a jolly at anyone's expense.

At least you've finally seen what has been obvious to everyone else all week.

Disaffected youths / criminals / unemployed / employed / black / Asian/ white people ....... they were all there, and for a myriad of reasons it seems. If you had read the many comment pieces on the subject this week you would realise the protests / riots are more complex than is realised, and not just people "out for a jolly", hence Ed Miliband's call for an independent Scarman-type inquiry.

I'm very flattered that you have again had a pop at one of my posts but as usual you're wide of the mark.

Try again.

[Tris]

Disaffected youths / criminals / unemployed / employed / black / Asian/ white people ....... they were all there, and for a myriad of reasons it seems. If you had read the many comment pieces on the subject this week you would realise the protests / riots are more complex than is realised, and not just people "out for a jolly", hence Ed Miliband's call for an independent Scarman-type inquiry..

Myriad of reasons being Sony, Samsung, Toshiba, Armani, Calvin Klein and Miss Selfridge?

Don't try and dress this up as any sort of protest (even with a "/riot"). There was no protest element whatsoever in Manchester, Birmingham, Nottingham, Liverpool, Bristol or anywhere else outside of Tottenham High Road. Just crime. By criminals. As you say, from all walks of criminal low life.

[jim mk2]

The events of the past week have thrown a whole range of issues ranging from unemployment / lack of opportunities / immigration / education and policing that cannot be shrugged off with simplistic explanations such as wanton criminality. Open your eyes and your mind.

[SAS]

Anyone know why my post and another post were removed last night. Thought it was quite valid and took me a while to type out posting from my phone!!

[yeti-dog]

Personally,if I were a mod and in the interests of reasoned debate I'd keep theno well away from the riots thread.

Only he,not for the first time, could shamefully quote Enoch Powell in a riot thread,although I appreciate that for him riots and race are inextricably linked,,,

[thenodrog]

At the moment there is a campaign in the media to discredit these people, yet we should be asking ourselves collectively why have WE got it wrong and not they.

I had a post possibly explaining much of that deleted JAL. Previous generations must share a lot of the blame. I hols my hand up. My generation in particular has put systems in place in sadly misguided, well meaning fashion which effectively pays people from the lower social orders to produce hordes of feral children for whom life serves no purpose other than to live totally off state hand outs and in turn replace themselves 4 fold.

[thenodrog]

Disaffected youths / criminals / unemployed / employed / black / Asian/ white people ....... they were all there, and for a myriad of reasons it seems. If you had read the many comment pieces on the subject this week you would realise the protests / riots are more complex than is realised, and not just people "out for a jolly", hence Ed Miliband's call for an independent Scarman-type inquiry.

Protests? PROTESTS? Then why no banners, chants and megaphones? Why no speakers stood on upturned orange boxes? Good grief Jim there was no protest at all, anywhere. There was just rioting, violence, arson, thuggery and looting for the sake of it. Just as one example what was the scum who robbed that dazed Indonesian kid protesting about? What about the evil bstard who mowed down and killed those 3 guys protesting about? How about the thug who dealt that fatal kick to the head of that bloke trying to stamp out a fire... what was that evil illegitimate protesting about?

[thenodrog]

Personally,if I were a mod and in the interests of reasoned debate I'd keep theno well away from the riots thread.

Only he,not for the first time, could shamefully quote Enoch Powell in a riot thread,although I appreciate that for him riots and race are inextricably linked,,,

That was in response to Phillip "shamefully" quoting Martin Luther King in a riot thread.

Here it is yeti.... http://www.brfcs.co.uk/mb/index.php/topic/25108-london-riots/page__view__findpost__p__1118745

Now I assume that you remember neither King or Powell and also that you do not remember the events of the 1960's so please comment on the context and the content AND NOT THE POSTER. Please tell us which of either quote was in any way wrong or unjust etc. Off you go ...

[yeti-dog]

That was in response to Phillip shamefully quoting Martin Luther King in a riot thread.

Of course it was.And why did you quote him last time (bearing in mind there wasn't a King quote to be seen anywhere..)

If you want to be a Powell acolyte at least have the gonads to own it..don't be blaming it on philip.

[JAL]

I had a post possibly explaining much of that deleted JAL. Previous generations must share a lot of the blame. I hols my hand up. My generation in particular has put systems in place in sadly misguided, well meaning fashion which effectively pays people from the lower social orders to produce hordes of feral children for whom life serves no purpose other than to live totally off state hand outs and in turn replace themselves 4 fold.

The biggest current sin for me is that of our social elite importing migrants to take the much needed jobs of our young then saying they are only doing the jobs because our people wont do these jobs, which is absolute poppycock.

Plus, not paying the ordinary man and women a payrise thats in line with inflation. For too long how many of us have been taking payrises that are continually lowering their own standard of living year on year.

This for me is showing the gap that grows with the divisions in our society growing ever deeper. For now the anger simmers, but this set of riots could be just round one, if changes in the mindset arent made at the top. As if there maybe a next time that civil unrest occurs, it may not be just on buildings and businesses alone, but may extend into the more affluent rural and gated communities of our society.

[thenodrog]

This might have been posted before. If it was I missed it but I make no apologies for postingb the link again

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

"Yesterday, the veteran Labour MP Gerald Kaufman asked the Prime Minister to consider how these rioters can be “reclaimed” by society. Yes, this is indeed the same Gerald Kaufman who submitted a claim for three months’ expenses totalling £14,301.60, which included £8,865 for a Bang & Olufsen television.

Or take the Salford MP Hazel Blears, who has been loudly calling for draconian action against the looters. I find it very hard to make any kind of ethical distinction between Blears’s expense cheating and tax avoidance, and the straight robbery carried out by the looters."

I must say I thought exactly the same of the massive hypocrite Blears when I saw her say it on TV. The parallels are amazing. Can anybody reveal why have the expense fiddling MP's been let out of prison after only completing a fraction of their punishment?

[colin]

Blimey

Thendrog, that link you posted was absolutely spot on. Thank you. I think that the BRFCS population will now stand back in amazement that we have actually agreed on something. You may wish to add to Kaufmann; Blears & Co the name of Michael Gove who was also pontificating about morality when he had to pay back £7k of his "expenses" for luxury furniture. No doubt there are others.

As for the rest of the thread:

(1) I don't think I'm really contradicting anyone if I say that to classify all of the looters as "the unemployed" is wrong. Many who have been arrested/convicted have jobs.

(2) David Cameron's statement that everyone arrested and convicted should face a prison sentance. That's not for him to say, that is up to the justice system

(3)A student who was convicted of wandereing inro a LIDL store in London after it was broken into and helped himself to two bottles of water and was sentanced to six months

here I think by anyone's standard that's completely over the top.

It sort of makes me think that the judicial system is being affected/effected by the media. Surely this cannot be right?

[tcj_jones]

Dr David Starkie was getting himself into a bit of hot water last night on BBC's Newsnight with some interesting views on "white people adopting black culture".

Put it this way, I'd be surprised if he's given any documentaries to narrate for a while!

[philipl]

Starkie was just plain confused. He quoted Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech approvingly at the beginning and spent the rest of his appearance de-bunking it. To be honest that was the worst performance I have heard by any pundit on TV or radio for a long time. It was gratuitously offensive and vacuous. Classic case of giving University profs a bad name.

Anyway by way of contrast, the Mayor of Philadelphia speaks sense here although his 10pm curfew for under 18s is straight out of the David Starkie book of gratuitous offensiveness.

"If you want all of us - black, white, or any other color - if you want us to respect you, if you want us to look at you in a different way, if you want us not to be afraid to walk down the same side of the street with you, if you want folks not to jump out of the elevator when you get on, if you want folks to stop following you around in stores when you’re out shopping, if you want somebody to offer you a job or an internship somewhere, if you don’t want folks to be looking in or trying to go in a different direction when they see two or twenty of you coming down the street, then stop acting like idiots and fools, out in the streets of the city of Philadelphia. Just cut it out," - Michael Nutter, mayor of Philadelphia, responding to a recent spate of flash mob robberies.

Incidentally, David Cameron putting social media blocks on the table was an utterly stupid foot in mouth "I know nothing about the internet but that won't stop me going for Daily Mail votes" moment which ill haunt him for a very long time.

What a plank.

[thenodrog]

The miscreants are being punished through the courts with fines and jail sentences so taking away benefits would be a double punishment. If you read the newspapers (which I doubt) you also might have noticed that many of the troublemakers are not benefits claimants but people in jobs, some of them very respectable jobs. Perhaps you might suggest how these people should be doubly-punished too.

Double punishment here we come......

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-08-13/london-council-moves-to-evict-rioters/2837708?section=world

btw .... Don't tell me you still actually read newspapers Jim? How very quaint and how very 20th century.

Half of Scandanavia felled and megawatts of energy wasted and turned into greenhouse gas just to advertise useless products which we neither want nor need, feed us made up scandals, pander to 4 or 5 big football clubs and wrap tomorrows fish and chips up in. These days the term 'newspaper' probably contravenes the Trades Descriptions Act in all but a couple of cases, and it most certainly will if you discount the football and racing reasults.

So Jim do you mind informing me why you still subscribe to them when everything you need can be downloaded on the internet or to a kindle? Does buying a paper provide some sort warm embryonic comfort for you? Like a dirty old cardigan does with a two year old for instance?

[broadsword]

I don't have time for politicians generally, but I've been particularly brassed-off with some of the stuff coming out this week:-

a) Theresa May says cancelling police leave was her idea (no it wasn't); Cameron says that police made a mistake in not cracking down hard enough on the rioters (but they did when they finally could mobilise the numbers to take the required action).

B.) Now Cameron's brightest idea is this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14514429 this is Tony Blair-style spin over substance. We don't wants czars, I've had enough of czars. We don't want focus groups, or initiatives, or long term soviet-style plans.

c) Osbourne confirms police cuts will still take place. Madness. We've got armed forces that are slowly being emasculated, and now our police force, already drowning in red tape and bullshit, is going to lose more front-line staff.

Let's get this clear, I don't like Labour either. I think the political class is all cut from the same cloth, they're in it for themselves. They don't suffer the consequences of having to live in these communities.

What we've seen is a natural progression when no-one stands up to these kids and punishes them properly when they're out of line.

We've got our priorities all wrong, we bail out banks who've taken greedy, reckless risks but we won't give the police the tools they need to do the job. It's the poor sods who actually work for a living who take the brunt of all this crap.

[yeti-dog]

I don't have time for politicians generally, but I've been particularly brassed-off with some of the stuff coming out this week:-

a) Theresa May says cancelling police leave was her idea (no it wasn't); Cameron says that police made a mistake in not cracking down hard enough on the rioters (but they did when they finally could mobilise the numbers to take the required action).

B.) Now Cameron's brightest idea is this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14514429 this is Tony Blair-style spin over substance. We don't wants czars, I've had enough of czars. We don't want focus groups, or initiatives, or long term soviet-style plans.

c) Osbourne confirms police cuts will still take place. Madness. We've got armed forces that are slowly being emasculated, and now our police force, already drowning in red tape and bullshit, is going to lose more front-line staff.

Let's get this clear, I don't like Labour either. I think the political class is all cut from the same cloth, they're in it for themselves. They don't suffer the consequences of having to live in these communities.

What we've seen is a natural progression when no-one stands up to these kids and punishes them properly when they're out of line.

We've got our priorities all wrong, we bail out banks who've taken greedy, reckless risks but we won't give the police the tools they need to do the job. It's the poor sods who actually work for a living who take the brunt of all this crap.

Don't agree with you that often Bryan,but I have to say that is a cracking post.

[thenodrog]

c) Osbourne confirms police cuts will still take place. Madness. We've got armed forces that are slowly being emasculated, and now our police force, already drowning in red tape and bullshit, is going to lose more front-line staff.

And there's the rub Bryan. Cut out all that red tape and bull by tough measures to reform the Justice system and we can cut police numbers. Let the p[olice do what we expect them to do and cut out the red tape and the need to walk on egg shells throughout their careers.