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[Paul]

You cant subtract error from the benefit fraud cost but add it to the tax evasion/avoidance cost. The hidden economy is also something I would class within the benefit fraud problem, cash in hand part-time jobs whilst claiming benefits is a fairly common practice. The other sketchy bit of the argument is whether tax avoidance should be illegal. If were just talking the solid ground of tax evasion, in the period you mentioned that cost the government £16 billion, and as you say benefit fraud cost £3 billion. So I still agree with you as to which is the bigger problem but I think there are quite a few misleading exaggerations on the ratio on this subject.

It's not me doing addition and subtraction that is a direct quote from HMRC as the causes of the tax gap.

Again on tax avoidance it's HMRC words. I would feel genuine tax avoidance is OK when the system is used as intended. When clever accountants dream up schemes outside of the intent behind the legislation it should be illegal.

A hidden, cash, economy is only part of benefit fraud and it is of course part of tax fraud but yes I see the point.

When looking at the figures we need to keep in mind HMRC is not just concerned with tax on a whole variety of incomes but also VAT. As I understand the figures uncollected or unpaid VAT is included.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

https://fullfact.org/economy/tax-avoidance-evasion-uk/

Very interesting article there mainly focusing on 2013/14. Encouraging that the tax gap as a percentage of total tax liability has been shrinking for a while now.

I found the breakdown of the gap very interesting though:

Unregistered paid work - £6.2 billion

Organised criminal attacks - £5.1 billion

Differences in legal interpretation - £4.9 billion

Tax evasion - £4.4 billion

Non-payment - £4.1 billion

Incorrect tax returns -£3.9 billion

Tax avoidance - £2.7 billion

Errors - £2.6 billion

You mentioned the unreasonable media obsession with benefit fraud. But how about the severe under representation in the liberal media of the cash in hand gang and organised crime when it comes to tax immorality? It's certainly not all about the big corporations screwing us over as is often reported.

I bet 3rd in the list is the province of the traditional tax bad guys but it'd be interesting to know who exactly is doing the most of 4th-7th, the big corporations or the average man and woman?

[Baz]

I honestly think the tax avoidance figure is too low, take this wiki entry for Sir Phillip Greens wife alone:

"Since Taveta Investments is owned by Tina Green, who resides in Monaco, protestors claim that the couple avoid paying £285 million in UK personal income tax, that would be payable if a UK resident owned the company.[11] In November 2005, Sir Philip approved a dividend payout that benefitted his family via Taveta/Tina Green by £1.2bn, paid for by a loan taken out by Arcadia, cutting Arcadia's corporation tax as interest charges on the loan were offset against profits.[12] The payout was the biggest annual dividend payout to an individual by a British company.[7]"

[adopted scouser]

Here's a question for you. Which country in the world do you reckon devours the most gay pornography? The US? The liberal Netherlands?

Nope, it’s the fundamentalist Islamic state of . . . Pakistan. They can’t get enough of the stuff.

This is despite the fact that having sex with someone of the same gender there can get you banged up for life. Or get your todger chopped off by an angry family member.

The greater the taboo, the greater the appetite, it would seem.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

So do I to be honest. I mean let's just take one of the FTSE 100 companies (albeit one of the very top companies) Shell, revenue of £160 billion last year. I know that's globally but that's ONE company. And total tax avoidance and legal wrangling adds up to £7.5 billion per year for everyone? Hmmm.

Having said that, an unexpected consequence of Brexit was France's charm offensive on the City. Mobile isn't letting me post the BBC link but part of the article says of the French government:

"The Socialist government is on board, promising tax breaks for returnees, lower company rates and more international schools."

That's the reality of tax and it's effects on society, blurry at best and counter-intuitive at worst. Personally feel as though some are clinging on with a bit too much tunnel-vision to the romance of fighting a black and white cause about it against the rich and powerful.

[Baz]

So do I to be honest. I mean let's just take one of the FTSE 100 companies (albeit one of the very top companies) Shell, revenue of £160 billion last year. I know that's globally but that's ONE company. And total tax avoidance and legal wrangling adds up to £7.5 billion per year for everyone? Hmmm.

Having said that, an unexpected consequence of Brexit was France's charm offensive on the City. Mobile isn't letting me post the BBC link but part of the article says of the French government:

"The Socialist government is on board, promising tax breaks for returnees, lower company rates and more international schools."

That's the reality of tax and it's effects on society, blurry at best and counter-intuitive at worst. Personally feel as though some are clinging on with a bit too much tunnel-vision to the romance of fighting a black and white cause about it against the rich and powerful.

But thats what the rich and powerful are for?

I just think that theres a marked difference between those who use the rules to avoid a bit of tax, and those who twist their entire life around doing so. I also think theres a massive difference in the media coverage between benefit scroungers, and the one day headline of the likes of Gary Barlow being fined for putting his money into an illegal aggressive tax evasion scheme. Within a month he's on telly telling us to donate to charity....

Im not against people with wealth etc but I think you should be held to the highest standards if you make your living in front of the public.

[Tom]

Once again people bickering over nothing and ignoring the real issues

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/14951167._They_should_be_called_certain_letter_bites____furious_mum_complains_to_Tesco_over_alphabet_potato_shapes/

[wolfie]

It's easy to miss assertions you think are complete nonsense.

That doesn't even make sense. Where have I said anything is nonsense? You've completely undermined your own argument there...

[Baz]

Once again people bickering over nothing and ignoring the real issues

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/14951167._They_should_be_called_certain_letter_bites____furious_mum_complains_to_Tesco_over_alphabet_potato_shapes/

Sorry Tom you are correct. What an absolute disgrace Tesco are. Monsters.

[yoda]

I find it amazing at what people think are "rights" these days.

Bits of reconstituted potato FFS

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

And to think if she'd just called her son Icgan this heartbreak and devastation could all have been avoided.

[Al]

Again on tax avoidance it's HMRC words. I would feel genuine tax avoidance is OK when the system is used as intended. When clever accountants dream up schemes outside of the intent behind the legislation it should be illegal.

.

For once I agree with you Paul. There is nothing wrong with legal avoidance but some schemes go beyond the spirit of the law and they should be illegal.

[Hanks]

Once again people bickering over nothing and ignoring the real issues

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/14951167._They_should_be_called_certain_letter_bites____furious_mum_complains_to_Tesco_over_alphabet_potato_shapes/

The story has been on the internet for a few days now, The original named the family concerned as being from Glasgow, the Telewag does not mention this but edited the original story and removed any mention of location. Its clickbait for the angry people that inhabit the comments section

[yoda]

"clickbait" is that a social affliction

[Audax]

Amazing, now someone doesn't like Peppa Pig cartoons, a conflict with the religion.

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/controversial-sheik-pushes-for-islamic-alternatives-to-peppa-pig/news-story/e12a5d9a3e7f2c1decb95b5d54db871b

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/media/broadcast/peppa-pig-a-corrupting-influence-for-muslim-children-say-leaders/news-story/37c026587e9fb26941dbd52e21f992f7

Seems there may have been a to do with Winnie the Pooh's friend Piglet in the past as well.

Where's that tolerance now?

--------

Unrelated;

Look who's online! Welcome back.

[joey_big_nose]

Here's a question for you. Which country in the world do you reckon devours the most gay pornography? The US? The liberal Netherlands?

Nope, its the fundamentalist Islamic state of . . . Pakistan. They cant get enough of the stuff.

This is despite the fact that having sex with someone of the same gender there can get you banged up for life. Or get your todger chopped off by an angry family member.

The greater the taboo, the greater the appetite, it would seem.

I find it incredibly hard to believe, just from a technological standpoint and raw population numbers, Pakistan could touch the US on production of gay porn. What's your source?

[Dreyski]

I find it incredibly hard to believe, just from a technological standpoint and raw population numbers, Pakistan could touch the US on production of gay porn. What's your source?

Probably not production, but...consumption?

[perthblue02]

I find it incredibly hard to believe, just from a technological standpoint and raw population numbers, Pakistan could touch the US on production of gay porn. What's your source?

I do not think it comes out on top in production , it is website hits/searches from the country.

There is a map of the world that was around on social media in the last few days and every country was represented by what they are famous/infamous for. I will see if I can find it. Came across it from a reddit discussion because Australia was listed for data breaches

Edit , a quick search reveals it was in a few newspapers as well , some strange ones

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/mapped-what-the-worlds-nations-are-best-at/

Also regards to Pakistan question articles released in 2013 backs up that view , here is just one article to save you searching

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/06/15/despite-strong-anti-gay-laws-pakistan-leads-in-world-for-gay-porn-searches/

[Audax]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-38287126

Derby and Burton upon Trent terror arrests: Six held in raids

[Audax]

What a strange story, an expensive Ferrarri crashed into a crowd on a bridge.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2380695/battersea-car-crash-leaves-six-people-hospitalised-after-car-ploughs-into-pedestrians/

[Amo]

Read an article that soon it will be politically incorrect to call children boys or girls in schools lest it offend transgenders.

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

[otto man]

Read an article that soon it will be politically incorrect to call children boys or girls in schools lest it offend transgenders.

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

A messed up world ain't it?

[Dreyski]

Well I wouldn't have believed it, but...

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/oxford-university-students-gender-neutral-pronouns-peter-tatchell-student-union-ze-xe-a7470196.html

[yoda]

I think we have a few Ze's on here

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Well I wouldn't have believed it, but...

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/oxford-university-students-gender-neutral-pronouns-peter-tatchell-student-union-ze-xe-a7470196.html

First the NUS votes in a certified anti-semite as president, then a SU in London bans right of centre newspapers from campus, now you've got Oxford Uni SU trying to get everyone to speak like Ali G for god knows what reason. There's some right planks dominating these unions.