Blue blood

Nah, they'd still need 3 out of 6 AND Wigan, QPR and Reading need to do better than us. Not going to happen. It TM was unlucky when we went down that such a high amount of points. This time he's very lucky that there are so many poor teams.

I always thought the adage was don't change a winning team not a losing one. Completely upside down view by TM. The other batnuts thing about it all is if it's to avoid relegation then TM hasn't checked the table recently. 1 relegation place left. On what planet are Millwall and Rotherham going to both make up 10 points on us? Wigan, QPR and Reading - none of whom are good or on particularly great runs are still comfortably below us too. Relegation is just another excuse to play his favourites. I'm sure if we win it'll change to got to keep the lads in who have performed well unless their name is Joe. The inmates are running the asylum these days and that can only go 1 way.

The 4 points from 30 may suggest otherwise. The last 2 windows being fluffed too... Heck I've written a list on another thread - have a look at that for all the reasons I think he's on a downward spiral. Granted we had a good Jan with 4 wins (I think?) But overall 2019 and the back end of 18 has seen a lot more downs than ups. There'll always be a few blips or positives even with a good/bad manager - beating Manure under Kean and Dalglish's last few league games before we got promotion are 2 blips in trend that immediately spring to mind, but I don't see any compelling evidence that we are heading in the right direction. And not sure stats or events overall back up a positive outlook.

I bet with a decent manager organizing them, and ideally, but not essentially a proper leader at centre back, both Lenihen and Nayambe would improve vastly. Both have a fair amount of talent, but are being dragged down and not pushed to their best by the current set up.

Also worth mentioning Cardiff were awful. Beyond awful when Warnock took over and one of the weakest teams in the division. The question of managers' performances is of trajectory and is it upwards or downwards. Hard to say TM isn't on a downward spiral at the moment.

A team which haven't scored in 4 and are mid-table with nothing to play for. Really should be looking and expecting to win this one. That said, I'd imagine a draw. I'd also expect them to break their scoring duck, but given we're normally good for a goal and they aren't prolific then a draw is probably on the cards. Incidentally having seen our run in, it would be criminal not to get at the very, very least a further 6 points. I'd imagine a win vs Bolton, then draws vs Stoke, QPR and Swansea, although all 3 of those games are pretty winnable. I think 6 is the bare minimum we should get and any less than this is a huge failure.

Perhaps should have posted this in this thread instead. Why TM should go.

Not sure I buy the "we've got mid table/survival and consolidation was what we were aiming for so all's good" argument. Let's say you hire me to drive you to the airport. The first half of the journey is great, and I even know a few shortcuts so we're getting there quicker than you had hoped. But then half way through I suddenly have a few near misses with other cars, almost cause collisions, run a couple of red lights, and don't use my mirrors. No harm happens, but it's hairy. Not only that after the first near miss I acknowledge I need to watch the traffic better, pay more attention, and check my mirrors, but then continue to do none of that, and the journey continues into chaos, but fortunately no damage. Oh, and I have glasses to help me see the road better, but I only put them on when I'm struggling. You're telling me you'd get in the car with me again after that? What confidence would you have for me to get you safely back from the airport when you need a ride home? Which is why TM must go. Not because this season we're not where we should be but because of the manner of it. The 4 points out of 30. The blind stupidity of only having 3 injury prone centre backs on the books. The exclusion of Rothwell, and to a lesser extent Chapman, the continuation of favourites in the side regardless of how well they play, The only having 3 genuine goal threats in the team. The awful interviews of absolute horse manure (like Mulgrew's hamstring went because I shouted at him being my favourite). Wasting £7 million on Bereton, Not signing players who fit a system, I ask on what basis can there be confidence that TM is going to do better next season? Give him a transfer window to sort it out? He's not sorting out the little things he can adjust week to week. He's not adjusted anything in the last 2 transfer windows. The only argument with any validity as I see it to TM staying is they'll get someone worse and that's a genuine fear and possibility imo. But let's not confuse that with TM being a good manager. A decent bloke possibly, though his comments of late have got me wobbling a bit on that. A good manager - not a chance.

Another of many holes in TM's theory is that Armstrong offers the square root of naff all defensively yet keeps his place in the side. Not sure how he can call for defensive wingers and play Armstrong . And Armstrong hasn't contributed much to the attack either. We've a manager utterly stuck in playing favourites and it's costing us big time.

Yes agree that is frustrating and worse contributes to people forgetting the good work he did last season. At least with Smallwood he was very useful and even now is an upgrade on Lowe. Sadly limited defensive mids are a shoe in in our team. Still think there's a role for Smallwood as a squad player coming on to close games out but it is not the role TM has for him.

Smallwood was a good signing for last year, just what we needed someone to get stuck in. Not sure he is championship quality bar more than a squad player but he was signed last year to get us promoted which he contributed well to. Bell I'm torn on and perhaps not the best example to use. Think he has the attributes but performance and concentration wise - plus reports on here - are mixed at best. Perhaps Armstrong this year would be a better useage. Davenport I used because he hasn't played or contributed anything. Same with Chapman. Am sure he has some talent but if they can't or won't be allowed on the pitch they're a poor signing just wasting money. That we are differing over examples used rather than the point itself points to how bad recruitment is.

I think the most pertinent question is do people have have faith TM can rectify our problems ? Given how long it took to get us up and running last season, his transfer dealings over the last 4 windows combined with a beyond absymal run of form, I'd say no. Any manager can have a run of good or bad results the question is whether looking at the wider picture you feel they can turn it round. I've not seen enough evidence in 3 years that TM can. For that matter what manager has recovered from such a shocking run aside from teht bigger picture stuff (appreciate that's another argument though!)

The fact that 5 games ago Rotherham needed 4 wins and they're still in that situation suggests they ain't going to do it. Am certain we'll continue to slide down the table and not get relegated. Just checked Millwall are also 10 points below us too so both would need to have a heck of a run of form for us to go down. No way both bad teams will do so. Add in there's a few other teams still below us - Reading, Wigan - who somehow we still have a 6/7 point lead over so there's also the possibility their form won't overtake us with so few games too. All in all there's enough dross for us to sleep soundly this season.

S8 and Blue - yes TM's recruitment has been appalling. How many players have improved/enhanced the team? I can think of 5 - Smallwood Downing and Dack last season and Rothwell and Reid this season. From 4 windows that's a pretty appalling record. Add in one of those players isn't even used now properly and another is out on loan and only shone because of injuries and you are really looking at poor recruitment. You could also consider how many players are decent but for every Bell or Antonsson - both of whom stretch the credibility of decent - there's a Samuel or Caddis or Davenport. When you have so many flops and you're in 2 minds as to whether the decent players are actually decent you have to question his recruitment. Then there's the expensive flops running at one a season - funds we can't really afford to waste. Last season was Whittingham this season it's Bereton. It shows even when given money TM can't spend it well. So yeah TM is terrible at recruiting.

I'd be interested to see how many fewer goals we'd have conceeded without Mulgrew at the back. I warrent it's comfortably more than the 11 he has scored.

I mean this whole 4 from 30 points, how are people defending it exactly? How are people not seeing the warning signs in it? It's not as if we were all conquering before hand either...

Start as we mean to go on. Our results say TM has lost the plot. Our performances say it too. Sadly our owners don't see this. Mind you they're the bigger problems themselves.

Not too disheartened Bennett's in centre mid. I think that's his best position and he can do a good job there. However there are huge question marks about how Conway is in the side (and Mulgrew for that matter) and how Rothwell isn't. More to the point as others have pointed out the fact we haven't a single non academy new player in there makes you realise what a balls up the last 2 windows have been.

Have we really got someone championing a Rovers player acting in such a way that by choice he doesn't give his best or fulfil his potential for us? Words fail me.

The goal posts on here keep moving - it's just a job, everyone's entitled to a social life, other players do it, it's not different from what we may do for jobs, he's doing ok at work so it's fine what he does privately, he's not been in trouble that recently... Not sure one of those reasons washes with me as a fan, nor with a top professional and it shouldn't with a manager either.

I wonder if I and others would answer differently if we had a more competent manager at the helm? Evans and Williams excepted I reckon a good manager could get a tune out of most of our players. Admittedly not all would fit into their system and some shipped out due to this and bring average but I wonder if a canny manager could do more with what we have then we think? For example Mulgrew in a back 5 with Bell and another wing back might bring out the best in the players, or Smallwood alongside a passer/dynamic midfield partner pr Bennett in a role focussing on running. Maybe we have more decent pieces than we think for the right manager and system but with the wrong manager and a flawed system the average players are looking worse? Not saying big work isn't needed in the summer - I think it is - just thinking aloud or whatever the internet equivalent is whether such a clear out and rebuild would be needed with a more competent manager.

Who indeed? In fairness Byrne was pretty poor when he was with us but if we were asking a number 10 to play cm he was hardly going to shine. More black marks all round for Clueless.

If actions not helping the team warrants your exclusion from the team it begs the question how Raya, Evans, Williams, Mulgrew, Bennett, Armstrong, Dack and many more are in the side. Pathetic comments.

It wasn't a criticism, just a disagreement with a comment! I think we think very similarly regarding our attack, my point was the stats seem very misleading in this manner - a bit like Lowe's pass completion rate for example - as attack is a huge problem despite what the stats say. Agree too that its a huge summer. If only TM had another couple of windows available to sort it out instead of just this summer...

Agree with lots of this post but less so about our attacking prowess. I think scoring goals is a problem although am surprised by those stats which are more positive then I thought. The reason I think our attack is and will be a problem is as follows: 1 There are only really 3 goal threats in the team, Graham, Dack and Mulgrew. That is a problem of itself before you consider things even further. There's no other player you would expect 5+ goals from that is an issue. 2 One of those attacking options causes just as much problems for our defence as he does support our attack. Has he scored or cost us more goals - difficult to say, but regardless it's not a great position to be in. 3 Looking to the future Dack is most likely off and age will catch up with Graham at some point - we could be left with even fewer goal threats. 4 I think our lack of attacking ability/creativity/ball retention makes the defense worse as it just invites pressure on the defence. Teams get so many chances in part imo because we rarely occupy them defensively. Even when we have the ball they're generally not pressed to defend as we play it about our back line. 5 There's been numerous games and reports when we didn't capitalise on our domination to get a goal. Brentford we should have been 3 up, early games Vs Reading and Millwall also spring to mind of times we couldn't kill teams off and get deserved wins. Other than Wigan how many times have we scored 3 goals - very few I think. 6 Finally point number 1 again considering the rest of the squad. Ok appreciate this is kind of the same thing but when you have a midfield of Evans, Bennett etc you ain't going to get many goals. None of our other strikers really have many goals in them either - couldn't see any breaking double figures for the season. Don't get me wrong the defence is appalling and a huge problem for us. However I don't think our attack is up to much either and probably makes our defensive issues even more serious.