You do realise that doesn't automatically mean Vale is any good right? Unless you are saying JDT and Rovers are infallible?

Not in a satisfactory manner, no. He's been crap. Saying I hope he gets better isn't a defence, it's an admission he's been crap. And it's not based on anything. I could now hope for a career as a footballer - no basis in fact. Hirst coming good is only marginally more likely. Ahem my question is why do you repeatedly persist with plan A when we go behind and it clearly isn't working?

Handy to exclude the other play off place for not fitting the narrative. Also it's 9 games having gone behind not one disappointing day. And chased out is a tad overdramatic too. Most people on here are just expressing concerns about losing a derby but more importantly the same stupid mistakes being repeated. Mind you that doesn't fit the narrative

Two utterly criminal errors from Rovers which really should have been avoided. 1) No plan B. Look I get why he set up as he did with the team that he did. I understand the thinking. Mola.a big lad with presence, another defensive mid. On paper it's worth a shot. But when the team and the tactics aren't working, clearly aren't working, to persist with both for the full.game.is idiocy. It wasn't working. Everyone could see that yet we continued to pass it round the back like a kick about in the park. It's not that hard to have a Plan B. It's not that difficult to see when Plan A isn't working. So why don't we? And this is the most frustrating thing about it - no team in the history of football hasn't had to revert to plan B at times. No team has solely had success through plan A, so why do we think we are different? Secondly we are massively reliant on youngsters stepping up to the plate. Again no team in the history of football has had all their youngsters ready to just slot in as squad players. So again, why do we think we are different? Some of them are ready at this level, some will be but aren't there yet, and others won't. History tells us this is the case. And yet so many positions we are relying on youngsters in their first season stepping up to the level required. That will never happen with them all so why are we wildly hoping it will? This is what bothers me, because these are issues that are utterly avoidable and completely known to us. Today our refusal to recognise reality cost us very dearly indeed.

It's not just Sheff Utd though is it? They've thrown away a ton of leads so there's plenty to go on. Bollocks

Apt summary. Genuinely think this the worst reffing I've seen in a long time. It's not just the big decisions, stuff like the corner shows a bias I've not seen in a long time.

The other positive is that Burnley aren't that good. I mean they are one of the better teams in this division but that doesn't take much. It's doable if we make a few key adjustments.

Positives We have worked hard and kept them at bay by and large Kaminski It's 0-0 Negatives We are offering nothing going forwards We need more.l of the ball to take some of the pressure off. I can see why he went for the first ram he did but I think getting Pickering on and Hedges forward may help us a lot and give us better balance without losing too much defensively.

Same although it may be the pub I'm in which use about 6000 lights in the place, dazzling every screen. Also perhaps unsurprising being in Yorkshire everyone else in the pub is a single. Cracking save by Kaminski!

That's changing the goalposts buddy. We were taking about the ability to attract players not the impact they had. They are two completely different things.

Sorry Chaddy but this is clearly not the case. Check out the transfer link below for previous transfers: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/everton-fc/transfers/verein/29/saison_id/2020 Big players coming into Everton including from Real and Napoli. That shows that they could attract talent without Lampard.

Problem is whilst we rely heavily on Ben it is very much an eggs in one basket sort of thing. Yes he would be a huge loss but he's going to be a huge loss next season as well. And my biggest fear with all this pressure on him is what if he gets injured or goes off the boil? Both are possible. What if we get key injuries in other places we have little cover? I do wonder if £10 million well spent could push us to promotion. Maybe a couple of strikers (perhaps one on loan) and cover for a position we have little depth in. That could be the difference for promotion and lessens the risk all round.

Agree with second point and probably agree with the first too. Certainly the fact he messed up every season in different circumstances is huge evidence suggesting that he would have messed it up anyway. But I also recall we lost a few tight games due to his howlers and do wonder what might have been.

I'm surprised he got that close to it... In some ways this horrific mistake has been mitigated by Kaminski being here. Issues are that it was an unnecessary change, we missed out on much larger money for him and of course the Walton debacle which was a complete handicap to the team. Only one season but my word he was rubbish and cost us big time. Without his howlers, who knows where we would have been.

It's a fair point they do have time to develop. And I hope they do surprise us. Bereton certainly did after 2 years of showing nothing coming good, so it's possible but it's more the exception than the rule. Maybe we should pack them both off to South America. That said it didn't take too much to clock those other guys weren't good, and the signs have been that both these chaps are pretty poor. I think I'd feel more comfortable not naming them so if I saw a definable quality in them, some potential. But I can't think of one thing they are showing which is decent or promising, a strength or an asset if you like. They aren't fast, they don't have presence, they don't strike me as that quick nor predatory or good in the air. Maybe it's a bit early to judge but the early signs imo are very discouraging. And Hirst certainly doesn't look anywhere near worth spending 4 million on.

Kinda disappointed you didn't acknowledge or engage with any of my points 😟 Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you have to agree with me, but some acknowledgement of the points In made would be nice. It feels like you have totally ignored everything I said! For example I gave 3 reasons why people are still going on about Dack. Fair enough dispute those reasons and their validity - MB is all about debate - but it doesn't help any discussion to ignore what the other person says. Likewise I say why I think the different natural positions doesn't prevent a comparison. Again, that's totally ignored. Disagree, sure but at least engage with the points I've made, in what I hope is a respectful manner. To clarify I don't want everyone to agree with me (well not much anyway 😉) but to engage with what's actually posted.

Come on Chaddy, it shouldn't be a surprise. The abysmal defeats when we look toothless, weaker players playing ahead of him, plus his history at Rovers. No way you should be surprised by this. I take your point that there are a ton of positives and that these outweigh the negatives, but to say this is a surprise topic is a tad naive. Lots of reasons I've mentioned as to why it's a topic that's being discussed. The biggest one for me being just imagine where we'd be using him instead of Vale or Hirst. Well that's not true either. The comparison is valid because a) all three are in the team to score and create goals and b) natural/preferred position doesn't prevent us comparing how one would do outside of that natural position. We can still evaluate their skills there. Different natural positions doesn't protect them. Example no 1 Nayambe's natural position was RB, however given his abilities etc he was still a better bet at CB for us than say Greer. Messi's best position say is as a wide forward but it would be daft to say he wouldn't offer not more up top than Brown did for example. Not sure why you are so keen to defend JDT's use of two of the worst forwards in Rovers history.

If we are basing it on performance, as oppose to blind loyalty to what the manager choses, then clearly he has done more than Hirst and Vale. They have offered the square root of naff all when they have played, which is far less than the glimpses of quality Dack has chosen. Look, I get it, JDT doesn't like Dack, and if I am honest I think the wages could be better spent come January. But to pretend Vale and Hirst are better options is plain daft, as neither have shown an ounce of ability, whereas Dack has shown the odd glimpse now, and showed a lot more prior to injury.

Hirst at £4 seems risky. At £4 million it's lunacy. Mind you given how long it took for Bereton to come good I can see the owners allowing it. For me it has to be a striker. We need a striker who isn't a dead weight like the current cover. Second is a defensive mid. For all I like Morton and Warton they aren't really defensive mids and without Travis we need someone in there who can do the dirty work. Full back is the third position where cover is needed. Definitely need one, maybe two as without the regular 2 we look much more disjointed. If we had more capacity for deals I'd be loaning out a few of the youth and getting them regular game time and bringing in other cover. There's a few who I feel could do with a loan out.

Would agree with this. In many ways - in his best position - Gally is an average championship striker at best. And if we had another average championship striker as cover there'd be much less issues. The problem is as you say the other two are utterly appalling and offer nothing. It's like playing with 10 men. Even a minor amount of vaguely adequate cover and we'd be in a miles better position.

Dack is moreof a striker than Hirst and Vale. And yes I know that's not his position. Goodness Ayala up top is a better bet than those two. Also - and this is key- there's a difference between writing someone off and thinking they are currently nowhere near the level needed at present. Currently both are offering us nothing.

Forget Dack I'd take the wheelchair over Hirst.

1 May be defensible.if Pickering was knackered/carrying a knock. Not ideal and perhaps another full back needed, but I'm not sure it's JDTs fault that Edun is no good and we haven't had more than one right back in the squad since 1932. My bigger worry on this was not having bite in cm. It is so obvious we needed that. Travis had to play cm. 2 Absolutely. How come Buckley is dropped from the team for terrible form yet these two chancers get game time? Madness. Not saying Buckley's had a good season but it smacks of.double standards. We are always going to have limited and inconsistent players - especially as a championship team - and that's the risk you take with players. But no team can afford utter passengers who are liabilities. That's shooting yourself in the foot and what happens playing these 2. 3.Spot on. It's so little time and when you consider how much the ball is actually in play it's asking a hell of a lot in no time at all. There's also no margin for error. Let's say Dack creates a good chance or two in his meager time, the keeper could pull off a worldie or there he a bad call from the ref. With enough time you can overcome these issues, not in 10 mins. Worst of all it blatantly wasn't working so why wait so long.

Yes there are other issues too. Totally agree it's not the sole issue But I do think a striker who y'know gave them something to think about might also relieve some pressure.

The ones we have are ok. And a fair few who can do a job there. Maybe another one or a defensive mid to cover when Travis goes full back. Ok, so maybe one more good option outside of a striker. But I still think a striker is more pressing as these two are so off the pace it's untrue.