Lol. Mind you: Falling upwards. Incompetence and in a position above his station. Surrounded by other crooks. Since the glove fits perhaps there are parallels. We could do with an AC 12 style purge on our club too.

Thing is BDS with the club we are that is exactly the sort of thing that could happen. It wouldn't surprise me at all.

I think my preference would be for loans like Armstrong with an option to buy, or failing that exceptional talents. Too many youngsters have come here, been mediocre at best to our detriment. Palmer, Brathwaite, Walton - all one way benefit and not in our direction. I struggle to believe we couldn't buy just as good a quality, albeit probably older, who would last more than one season and be an asset on our books. Another issue I have with loans, especially in defence, is there is no continuity or consistency. We've had 2 loan left backs in 3 years, a loan keeper and 3 loan centre halves. Where's the continuity in that? How are they meant to gell as a unit? Then as I have said before even the successful ones are of limited benefit. I've said it before but take Tosin over Bauer - over one season Tosin is better. Long term which is better for Rovers, the solid good quality championship centre half. The final issue I have with all this is it's sticking plasters over wounds. Plasters they are ripped off every summer. "Defenders are coming" - we've needed them for three years and all for the most part it's been a series of loans meaning the problem is never properly addressed. It's a terrible way to manage a club and the antithesis of the journey we are allegedly on. Ahem, rant over. As for who we will sign it will be a few top 6 kids, which to the masses out there will prove what an amazing genius TM is. After all promising game time to youngsters is something that only a really skilled manager could do.

Not sure I agree. To me he sounds like self preservation mode. The 'reset as though the 3 years don't count', the 'I won't make excuses but then list every excuse', and the most cringe worthy 'the owners are wonderful people' articles are all signs of a man desperate to cling on to his position regardless of how undignified he sounds or how much lies he spouts. Not sure he wants to get pushed at all. His comments in that vein come off more like a child who can't cope with criticism or challenge and speaks before they think rather than someone looking to get the push. Otherwise we wouldn't have had half the bull he has spouted.

Thing is if you had to spend money on one thing in the championship a good manager would be it. The difference it makes to a club is huge. It's amazing that some clubs don't realise that.

A few thoughts on this. You have had manure and spurs complaining about fixture congestion this season, both with more squad depth then Rotherham (even factoring in it's not a like for like comparison.) So to say fatigue isn't a real factor for them seems very harsh indeed. Not surprising that it was a late equaliser that they conceded, fatigue levels must have been high indeed. Given it was so close I'd agree with those saying that it was the difference maker in them going down. On Derby no way will it count for this season, but hopefully next. Not that Sky will want that for Rooney, not that I imagine he will stay if they do get a points deduction. I've a feeling though this will take a while to be resolved.

Any CEO who let a manager continue with the run we had - or even part of it - clearly isn't fit for the job. Even if he didn't have the power to sack him he should have been pressuring the owners to do so. Sinister is the word. One thing to add to that is that we have so much form for allowing dodgy goings on to occur. In fact it's been the norm under Venkys.

Factor in how he pulls the strings on everything, including his own boss. Bit odd if he then has no say in this after that kind of clout. Then there's the fact that even if it wasn't his plan he could have opposed it or the manner in which it was undertaken (i.e. sneaking it through.)

Very possibly. That had crossed my mind but I wonder if they might pay a bit towards it as part of the deal to get Armstrong. My thinking is a loan and more goals in the championship may make him more saleable. That said I think you could well be right that he may have better offers.

Game time? Although if he is getting it and is not bumped down the queue in the summer I appreciate that is less likely to occur.

Thanks for a very well reasoned reply. Appreciate there is a lot of opinion and conjecture in this although fwiw given his clout at the club I find it impossible to think he didn't know of and at least tacitly approve of the plans. (Plus the Coventrio is a huge coincidence otherwise too!) Where I really take issue is the all managers comments can be seen as talking us down. There is a huge difference between the reality changing BS the current incumbents spouts and previous managers talking us down a bit. Not under Souness, Hughes, Ince or any manager has anyone ever said the fans are measuring against winning the PL. It's an utter lie to discredit fans. No manager has ever said we need to acclimatise to the championship as a league one outfit. No manager has ever effectively said the previous 3 years don't count. No manager has stated as many factual inaccuracies (deliberately) as him. There's a huge difference between what TM is doing and what others have done. It's a bit like comparing someone who goes a couple of miles over the speed limit with someone drink driving along the pavement. As you say though it's probably best to leave it here before I start to forget Coyle was utterly useless too. It's a poor do that the competition between the two is so fierce for who is worse and even sadder than neither make the top spot. And all in the last 10 years! Makes me amazed we still have any fans left.

I've said it a few times but it really is worth baring in mind, that being in his last year of his deal means Armstrong's fee will be much lower than hoped. It knocks a lot of value off a player being in their last year of their contract. Factor in the Newcastle sell on fee. And it looks low. Factor in if Venkys do resort to coat cutting and it looks horrific - when they cut costs under Coyle he got 0.25% to spend on transfer fees... Most likely scenario is imo Gayle on loan and £10 million from Newcastle. Of which we get a couple of millions for a transfer budget. (Otherwise known as the Boro charitable support fund.)

Hi get that none of us are saying either are good, more like a debate as to which is worse a punch in the face or kick in the balls. It's a good point that you make. With the same squad TM was doing a bit better. And that points to him being a little stronger in terms of ability. My counter would be two fold. Firstly his character and actions away from the pitch are FAR worse. Trying to sell the training ground - unforgivable. Suggesting Rovers fans were entitled due to remembering 1995 - insulting. Coyle also didn't give contracts to his mates kids and the like either. Off the pitch, far, far worse which more than undermines him being a bit better in ability (which I tend to agree with just.) Secondly it's a just/very marginally better. For starters TM still got us relegated. Secondly the limited number of games, as we saw to our cost this season, probably helps TM in comparison as there was less chance of the obligatory death spiral (hypothetical I know). Also Coyle came into an utter mess, he didn't even get a load of his recruits in till towards the end of the window. It was a far from easy start. To use an analogy its easier to come in part way through cleaning up a mess. Then of course there is this season. To be three points better off with a shed load of advantages is absymal. Utterly appalling and just as unimpressive in its own way. To be fair I doubt Coyle would have done as well as the previous 2 seasons, although with that budget and team I think he might still have got us up. but overall I think TM has shown plenty of ineptitude as a manager and blows Coyle away with his off field antics.

I'm no Coyle fan - he was useless. But he never took pops at the entitled fans or tired to sell off the training ground. Both of which make him less odious than TM. Also before we build up TM as a managerial giant I do wonder if Coyle would have done much worse than TM if he had had the backing TM had. Compare this seasons performance to Coyle's and I would say it is probably worse. 3 years into the position, £15 million net transfer spend, no enforced sales, the advantage of Covid overall and Covid and a points deduction helping us Vs relegation rivals and we are what, 3 points better off. That doesn't strike me as a better manager to me. Again not that Coyle is any good. He gave us Williams and Byrne for starters and let Duffy go awol. But if we are doing a like for like comparison I wouldn't be too confident on TM looking good.

Absolutely! I mean what are they basing all their negative assumptions on? We had a great season results wise with a bit of an unlucky run in the latter half, we've found great value for money in the transfer window with the likes of Gally, Bereton and Ayala. Our squad has both quality and quantity all over the park and as for goal threats the team is littered with them. Struggle to see how anyone can think we will do badly next season.

My thoughts too. Add in his comments being alarmingly Kean-esque and we have a much worse a manager than Coyle. In a perverse sort of way that is TMs biggest achievement to date here.

Bradley sodding Johnson. Just as I started to get happy about Evans and Bell going as well. Hard to see the logic behind this. He's looked unfit ever since he has joined us, another year on the clock won't do anything to help that either. His performances have been horrifically inconsistent. Very good 1 in 4, a liability 1 in 3. It's like russian roulette playing him in midfield. Not sure how performances warrant a contract extension. Then you have the past history of resigning Downing for a year which tanked. Seems stupid to try the same risky strategy with another aging player. Buggered if I know how a 34 (35?) year old fits into the journey and our plans. Especially one who is a dead weight in a third of the games he plays. Cannot see the logic of this whatsoever.

Brilliant post. Thing is your flat earth illustration is sadly not too dissimilar to his actual statements, as in they are utterly at odds with reality. Rovers fans remembering and expecting Premiership wins, Covid affecting us and not others, acclimatising to the championship are almost as detached from reality and as easy to debunk as flat earth theory. We are into that level of rediculousness and yet it still remains unchallenged.

This is so true. Buckley started doing well in the midfield 3 and was dropped and before that there were a ton of players dropped after a good game. Others have stayed in even in terrible form. TM is hugely inconsistent in this. I think it was because he has to show an asset worth something to get a sale and plus points off the owner and that clearly isn't going to happen with Ben or Gally.

Good shout that. Mods can you please merge.

So as the dust settles on what can only be described as a disappointing season, I thought it would be interesting to see how bad people actually thought the season was. Whilst most (all?) on here don't think it was good enough, I suspect many of the fanbase outside of here are disappointed but not to the extent of seeing TM leave. There's been plenty of excuses offered and a number of signs of encouragement that some point to as well. However, there has also undeniably been a lot of poor results and worrying signs. So how bad was it really? Firstly the positives. Gally and Bereton both don't look a complete waste of space. Neither are at the point of looking good but both have shown they offer something. Bereton seems a bit of a flat track bully to me, who I don't think we can count on under any sort of pressure, but that's still a huge upgrade on previously. Gally has been hampered by TM's insistence of playing him out of position, but a number of goals, especially from the subs bench, suggest he might be decent as a plan B or as squad player at centre forward. There've also been some thumping results, which are always nice to see and the keeper question has looked to be solved with the (overall) quietly competent Kaminski giving a bit of stability to an otherwise difficult season. Armstrong's development is also a huge plus, and is a huge assett to Rovers whether he stays (unlikely) or provides next year's transfer budget. Then there's mitigating circumstances. TM was unlucky to lose both Warton and Dack to long term injuries. Perhaps Dack's return wasn't being handled particularly well, but to lose two players in key positions to long term injuries, whilst part and parcel of the game, is nevertheless a cruel blow. Less mitigating circumstances however was Covid. An excuse TM has often used but actually it worked in our favour. It made clubs with more finances perhaps a little less willing to spend. It took some daunting away fixture crowds out of the equation. Having a manager in place for 4+ years meant all of the team building, communicating ideas and other hinderances that came with Covid protocols should have had less effect on ourselves who had 4 years to build said culture and communicate ideas. At the bottom of the table it massively lessened the fear of relegation kiboshing two of the three who in the end went down. If anything, whilst terrible for the country, Covid helped Rovers. Then there's the negatives. Sadly there are so many. Poor transfers - nailed on, especially Ayala, an injury prone player in a position full of injury prone players. Players out of position - Tony outdid himself with placing Elliott in a place where he couldn't be effective and Gally at right back was the stuff of utter madness. The tombola came out regularly meaning the team and formation was constantly chopping and changing, leaving it very difficult to get any semblance of a plan or consistency. The one win in 16 was something no other manager would have survived. The 6 straight losses were particularly galling as none was against particularly strong opposition. And, most disappointingly, TM's comments utterly rivaled Kean. They were that low. Rovers fans expecting glory due to winning the Premiership, Nayambe's in out injury situation, and the project reset and acclimatisation to the championship that all were utterly pond scum-esque comments. The Coventrio tried to get rid of the training grounds on the sly, destroying Jack's legacy further, in what was another horrible situation for the season. Goodness, there has been a lot of crap in this season hasn't there. Which gives me to my overall rating of the season as a D-. Armstrong and a few thumping results save it from being an E, as does the fact we managed the none-too-laudable achievement of not doing a Hull and getting relegated. But it was pretty crap I think. And a huge opportunity missed. No doubt a decent top and tail will keep TM safe and the happy clappers clapping into next season. How bad do others think it was?

Hope Rotherham stay up. Shame both they and Wednesday can't as both have been more shafted by Covid than us (yet made less of a fuss than Total Mess about it.) On the subs maybe TM wants them to get a send off from the fans for their great service. No problems with that theory whatsoever...

Hadn't realised that, thanks. On another note would love it, love it for Derby to go down. From the dodginess of the Rooney signing to the car crash incident handling they are a rotten club. Would love to see them drop down.

This is encouraging for the future. We can do over the weaker sides which makes me breath a little easier for next season. Gally and Bereton aren't totally useless. That said we still ain't going to do well next year or any other with TM in charge, but there's a bit of hope that we might be able to avoid the drop.

Like you say @roversfan99 it's pretty subjective but I can certainly see your argument. Personally I think we strongly edge the likes of Boro and Cardiff, especially as you say they have a strong manager and we haven't seen any of our players have that boost or allow them to show their potential. Reading you make a good case for and I may have to revise that. Perhaps it's a legacy of seeing a number of poor Reading teams over the years and that they have been hot and cold over this year (more hot tbf) and thinking the cold looks very poor. They'd be the playoff team I think is clearly the weakest. Still opinions are what make football interesting and either way am sure we all agree we have hugely underperformed.