Not necessarily counter attack, more holding the ball up perhaps? Against Ipswich when Nuttall came on for Graham and against Stoke Brereton did. Neither were half as effective at holding the ball up and thus pressure kept coming. Although Rothwell wasted a perfect counter attacking chance v Stoke too. Definitely has to be a mixture of things though, not just bad luck. Rash fouls, ie Reed v Villa and Lenihan v Stoke (although we didnt throw any points away the panic and almost collapse was a big worry) leading to set pieces. Natural instinct/lack of fitness(?) leading to defending deeper? The mental aspect of knowing it has happened before?

Excellent post. And has Waggott shown any signs of being able to do anything at all about any of the points you mention? Nope.

Id like to think those comments are just him publically protecting the team rather than anything else. I hope he does see it as something to rectify. He mentions teams throwing men forward as if its inevitable that a goal will result. Also specifically mentions Villa and Ipswich believing we deserved to win. Even if we did, the whole point of the criticism is that we arent getting the points over the line, for whatever reason.

Neither did Dack or Bennett. Theres definitely a balance so I do understand to an extent but I dont think we should be too over cautious either, dropping our best player at the moment would cause a big problem. Hes obviously got the chance to rest up next week so lets get what we can out of him in these next 2 games. Palmer has gone to being dropped from your squad to having 2 places on the bench? ?

Graham is apparently the fittest hes ever been under Mowbray. Hes proving people wrong and in fact Dack looked tired at the end of the Forest game whilst Graham seemed fine. Has to start.

Hope Mulgrew is fit, suspect he might sit out until the international break but fingers crossed as we need him alongside a shaky Lenihan. Going to be a tough game. Raya Bennett Lenihan Mulgrew Williams Evans Smallwood Reed Dack Armstrong Graham Subs: Leutwiler, Bell, Rodwell, Palmer, Rothwell, Brereton, Travis

You are not going to Bolton away partially due to the high ticket price. If it was £27 would you have the same complaint? And if it makes no difference, spin it round, why charge it in the first place?

Strange comment, the same could be said for anything on this messageboard, me and a couple of other posters were having a debate about the issue, surely the forum is for such discussions? Splitting hairs again there, call them what you like, the players I listed are the types which I'm referring to, you know what I mean. How do you know? Lets hope Mowbray has a more proactive approach than, yes we could look at ways to win more games but the referees are the problem so lets just sit back and blame them! Yesterday he did I agree. But we should and am sure are looking at ways to turn draws into wins and hold on to leads more often. We can always improve. Look at Man City, 100 point champions yet they went out and signed Mahrez because even they can improve. Hope he can play as hes been a key player this season.

The ranking within the team is slightly deceiving due to the turnover of wide men that we had. In the first half of the season obviously Chapman was here for a bit, and Antonsson was regularly played wide before his injury on the cusp of the year. After January, Armstrong took over on one side, and Payne also played a big part. I personally didnt think 2 goals and 5 assists in 41 games was enough for an experienced Championship player. That said, I am happy with his performances and specifically, his attacking play this season

Bennett I was quite strong in my opinion that he didnt do anywhere near enough going forward when played as a winger last season, an opinion that seemed to go against the grain in regards to someone who is a very popular figure. I dont think you can justify a place for a wide man solely on defensive merits, he needs to offer something going forward. That said, conversely and without needing to see anyone spraying passes on any highlight reel, I think he has improved in his attacking output from that position, with key roles in goals against Hull, Brentford, winning a penalty v Reading and 2 goals v Stoke. I still maintain that he needs to score more (any) goals but I think he has been much improved going forward. Reed has done very well too but over the course of the season, having a midfield containing Smallwood, Evans, Reed and Bennett is a little too conservative I would suggest. Mowbray has mentioned the 2.5 attacker system that he likes, meaning that in most games, I would suggest that the best way to go would be an Armstrong/Palmer/Rothwell down one side and Bennett or Reed down the other. Of course, that doesnt mean only one of them 2 can play at any time, as Reed is a natural central midfielder, Bennett can also play there and both can play right back very capably, with Bennett potentially playing there on Wednesday. The reason that we need at least the option of a winger is it means that we can stretch teams, ideally with pace yes, but have someone that could go on the outside. All of our attacking players want to hurt teams down the middle, which is not always possible, so it gives you a totally different dimension. I felt that both Bell and Nyambe had shaky games yesterday and Forests wide men, especially Lolley had the beating of them.You mention a winger not offering defensive cover but I dont see why a winger would offer any less defensively than Armstrong, Rothwell, Palmer or Brereton should they play there, in fact they would be less prone in theory of leaving gaps when they come inside looking for the ball. Armstrong I feel is out of our options the best fit due to his pace and ability to exploit the space in behind coming from wide as he did last season. Palmer and Rothwell have also both shown to be a threat from wide but of course always want to come inside, and Brereton is as much of a wide man as Raya is. I just think having someone who considers them self to be a winger would be a great alternative option, as we saw with Chapman last year. My desire for a winger does not specifically mean Chapman, in fact I would argue that there are probably better wingers out there in terms of the here and now.

Agreed but I wouldnt really suggest that both him and Bennett on either side will provide us with enough going forward over an extended period of time. It does however gives us another option as a better alternative to Conway as a defensive winger, especially with both often potentially being needed centrally or at right back throughout the season. Its a good little bonus. Sounds bad, but I think Nyambe's injury may ease a potential dilemma for Mowbray on Wednesday. Moving one of the 2, presumably Bennett to right back will then free up a space on one of the sides for either Armstrong, Palmer or Rothwell, presumably the former, giving us more individuality.

I think that is doing him a slight disservice in that in the second half of last season he had no quality competition yet was superb. Hes been our best player for me this season, just over Evans and obviously, Dack.

Theres no point having an argument of why even say it because we know what Mowbray thinks and thats final. May as well shut down the messageboard with that kind of attitude. Wingers still exist, some of whom play on their natural side and stretch the play, ie Jozefzoon and Lolley, some of whom come inside like Ince. There are plenty of wingers about no matter how many times that you compare them to the good old days ans imply that they arent. I never said a winger like we had in 95 that get crosses in to big strikers. Just a wide man who goes on the outside and stretches the play. Mowbrays failed pursuit of Chapman gives me hope that the door isnt closed on that sort of signing in the future. I know the referees are poor but theres no quick fix and its beyond Rovers control and we should look to fix the things we can control first. Agreed with your team bar Evans for Rothwell.

Seen him v Bristol City, Villa and Stoke. Very difficult to judge based on the circumstances in each of his cameos so very much as in the dark as when we signed him. But loves throwing himself over. Never a winger in a million years. And seemed slower than expected but hope and presume thats a lack of match fitness. Cant see him starting soon with Grahams form.

I think we could fit a natural winger into Mowbrays current theory of having 2.5 forwards. He could be on one side and we could still have Reed or Bennett on the other. We have played 1.5 (as Mowbray would say) forwards in the last 2 games albeit I think yesterday Reed and Bennett had earnt a start from the Stoke game. Would a winger leave us more exposed than having Armstrong, Palmer, Rothwell or Brereton wide? Not for me. Even if its just to have the winger as an option. We made 7 signings in the summer, I just feel that to have that extra bit of balance, we could have sacrificied one of the 3 central midfielders for a centre back, and a proper winger instead of Palmer or Rothwell, although I do rate both as individuals.

Obviously its his prerogative but it doesnt mean that we cant have our own opinions.

But like I said, a winger doesnt have to solely whip high crosses into a big striker. Just someone who can stretch the play whilst running at his full back. @Bigdoggsteel post confused me in saying no point signing players for the sake of it, but a natural winger would be a very useful tool.

Dont really understand this post. Are you saying direct wingers are harder to find than other positions? How would a winger be signing players for the sake of it?

I feel like @jim mk2 made a very valid point, but I knew that the phrase "under-acheving" which I agree was harsh would make the whole opinion very unpopular. Our ability to compete at this level is clear, but jim also said "We're doing okay but it could be so much better" which is absolutely spot on. We are mid table but we could easily be in the play off places, had we not developed an achilles heel for giving away late goals, silly penalties and struggling to turn draws into wins at the point of creating plenty of chances in games. This doesnt mean that we are doing rubbish and need major changes, so much is right with the team at the moment, but it doesnt mean that we should ignore when something blatantly is causing us a problem. He also mentioned that we should be looking at what we are doing to rectify these points being lost rather than writing it all off solely onto referees, as seems to be the most popular and convenient method. Yes they are poor but for all of @chaddyrovers ideas about spending multi millions on them, they arent going to change any time soon. Lets look at both what we are doing well, ie plenty, and also what we can do to do even better, and try to knock the conspiracy that our main downfall is referees always being against us on the head. Its a popular myth that wingers have no place in the modern game. Yesterday, we faced Lolley and Cash who gave our full backs a hard time, and they also brought Dias on, another winger. In recent times, we have played Stoke who had Tom Ince who scored, Derby have Jozefzoon and Harry Wilson, 2 very effective wingers at this level, and Gwion Edwards of Ipswich and Eliasson at Bristol City are 2 wingers that have caused us major problems this season already. I have provided a list of wingers in the Championship a few weeks a go and it was a very long list. Even if a wingers role is not necessarily to float crosses in to 2 target men, and whether the winger is on his weak or strong foot, a good winger has as much of a role to play now as they ever have.

I hope and am sure Mowbray will be looking for things he and the team can do differently to stop it from happening rather than simply blaming bad luck. Armstrongs goal to get us back in the game today was admitted to be a fluke just as Ipswichs goal was. Weve also scored fortunately direct from a corner and got away with a blatant penalty shout for Villa. I do think we have a point today but we get some luck ourselves lets not forget.

First one a definite penalty. Second one wasnt I agree. Dack looked quite soft but would like to see it back. Overall, can feel hard done by today. Do you agree that we need to stop losing points from winning positions so often? And was an accident. Removed.

Thats an unfair question based on one being 32.

The first penalty was stone wall, was incredibly clumsy by someone whose conceded 3 penalties in a week. We should be questioning why hes conceding silly penalties rather than blaming refs. The second however I agree was very soft. To challenge for the top 6 or even top 10 we will need to be more ruthless when we lead rather than throwing points away, turning potential wins into draws. Thats not "picking holes."

No one anywhere is doubting the fact, or reluctant to mention the fact, that the manager is doing a great job, that the team is young, improving, full of fight and battling qualities. Its also competitive in terms of quality. That doesnt mean that its perfect, nor will it ever be. Today I am not on my own in being both proud again of the team, and again disappointed that we didnt win as we should have done, a feeling that has happened a few times this season. Im also not naive enough to put it down solely to referees or bad luck. I do think we can feel hard done by today in terms of the referee, not against Villa as previously discussed. That said, the fact that we have thrown points away a few times already this season has to be a point of concern. Just as the fact that we have been more than competitive in the vast majority of games is a point of pride. We have only lost 1 in 10, which again is a point of big promise. That said, of the 9 games we have avoided defeat in, we have only managed to win 3 of them, and only 1 at home out of 5, again that is something that we need to and I am sure Mowbray and the players are looking at improving. Its not "picking holes" to say that. We have prove we can beat anyone in this league. - we have the ability but thats the point he is making, we dont win often enough considering the chances we have.

How is it an embarrassing comment? We did draw lots of games last time in the Championship under Mowbray. And we are drawing a lot this time out. We are incredibly difficult to beat also arent winning very many ourselves. To clarify, I think Mowbray has done a very good job, and I like the team we have, and I agree with all the characteristics that youve listed. Its a team that leaves everything on the pitch and the front 2 is a brilliant combination. Whilst that its a valid suggestion that the referee was poor today, youve peddled the theory a few times that refs are biased against us and its a load of rubbish. Refereeing decisions arent the sole reason that we have thrown away 2 points today, 2 against Villa, 2 against Ipswich etc. Whilst we are not going to be 100% efficient its such a shame that we do all the hard work to get ahead and then for whatever reason allow it to slip and to fulfill our undoubtes potential it has to stop. You seem desperate to bury your head in the sand in regards to at times an inability to get wins over the line when we play well, hiding it behind referees and luck. Today maybe theres an element of truth but overall there is a problem there, for all of Mowbrays excellent work to date.