[Archived] Entertainment or Result Is All That Matters?

[Uddersfelt Blue]

All things being equal then entertainment should be expected but when you are fighting for survival in this League then ONLY results matter.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded and can look forward to watching us back in the third or fourth tiers of English football

[bellamy11]

Until he lost the plot in the last 12 months of his reign Graeme Souness's teams were good to watch - the Uefa match at Celtic is one of best Rovers performances I have seen in 50 plus years of watching the club but unfortunately ended in a 1-0 defeat so perfectly illustrating why in the end the result is all that matters.

But Jim you'll always remember that match. So we lost, but Jesus was I a proud Rover that night. We were magnificent.

Let's look at it from a slightly different angle - we play a pragmatic game and win that leg 1-0. We then lose 2-0 at Ewood (as was the case). This isn't unrealistic - neither Celtic goal that night was the result of us being counter-attacked recklessly seeking to erase the deficit. Do you remember the first leg more fondly than you do now?

A game I always think back to is Charlton away, where Friedel equilised in injury time, only for Claus Jensen to make it 3-2. What a journey back! It still hurts a little whenever I remember is - as I'm sure it does for the other few hundred who were there. You know what? I wouldn't change it. I've seen us win countless games that I'll barely remember.

When I'm older and look back on my support of Rovers I'll remember games and occasions more than league positions. That's at odds with the financial necessity of finishing as high up the table as possible, but then that's not what this thread is all about. 15th with some rollercoaster games (win or lose) which I'll remember for decades or 8th with a number of 1-0 wins that I'll forget on the way home? No contest.

[Jimmy612]

We've proven we can play good football and win. We proved it last season, ironically when Sam was off sick, and we've proven it this year. 'Good football' doesn't mean keeping it on the floor for 90+ minutes. IMO, good football is knowing when to keep the ball and knowing when to go long. Effective yet entertaining. You do a disservice to our players when you say they're only capable of hit n' hope.

I think you'l agree topman that the best football we played last season is when we had reached the 40 point mark and PL safety was pretty much confirmed.

We had a great end to the season, beating Arsenal at home and Villa away to name a couple.

I have no idea how people can say they would prefer 15th than 8th, particularly when you take into account the financial difference in the two positions considering the lack of funds for the last 5 years.

[ROVERS]

Not sure I accept the premise of the question: that they are a trade-off.

While I can think of a few exceptions, most times when we win it's because we played better than the opposition. I enjoy the result and the manner of it. Most times when we lose, it's because we got outplayed. Wigan outplayed us in my view. Sometimes you get the daylight robbery games but they are just what keeps it interesting.

And thank you to the usual suspects for turning yet another thread into Sam/Kean/Venkys - it really does enhance the discussion

Sums it all up!

Sam played a percentage game, while we asked for a football game which is not exactly = entertainig football . a matter of perspective

its all about getting the balance right.....

sacking SAM was all about timing - and unfortunately for us, the timing, the way and maybe even the replacemnt of the sacking was disatrous, however its time to start backing the team like we all once did.

winning football, boring football, entertaining football, tactical football, inspiring fottball whatever you call it, its just football being played under different circumstances, which the manager had to decide when to play what to win games. its a chicken and egg debate..........

[Mattyblue]

But Jim you'll always remember that match. So we lost, but Jesus was I a proud Rover that night. We were magnificent.

Let's look at it from a slightly different angle - we play a pragmatic game and win that leg 1-0. We then lose 2-0 at Ewood (as was the case). This isn't unrealistic - neither Celtic goal that night was the result of us being counter-attacked recklessly seeking to erase the deficit. Do you remember the first leg more fondly than you do now?

A game I always think back to is Charlton away, where Friedel equilised in injury time, only for Claus Jensen to make it 3-2. What a journey back! It still hurts a little whenever I remember is - as I'm sure it does for the other few hundred who were there. You know what? I wouldn't change it. I've seen us win countless games that I'll barely remember.

When I'm older and look back on my support of Rovers I'll remember games and occasions more than league positions. That's at odds with the financial necessity of finishing as high up the table as possible, but then that's not what this thread is all about. 15th with some rollercoaster games (win or lose) which I'll remember for decades or 8th with a number of 1-0 wins that I'll forget on the way home? No contest.

well then me and you are polar oposites. I was at Charlton that day and came back on the train gutted. A 1-0 win or a hard fought 0-0 draw would have made me proud.

I am entertained by winning, by seeing us up the table, by watching my club punch above their weight year after year, by being in the worlds biggest league, by seeing average crowds of 25000.

We play the 'right way' and go down it's all over- we do a Chatlton, a Sheff Wed, a Sheff Utd. An empty ground with no hope and a team of garbage.

Get the points in the bag by hook or by crook.

[bellamy11]

well then me and you are polar oposites. I was at Charlton that day and came back on the train gutted.

And I didn't? Stuck on a coach in London traffic with a 6 hour journey to reflect on what we'd just seen. Total hell. What I'm saying is I still occasionally think about that game even now. It's probably a football "war story" I'll tell my kids and grandkids about one day.

In the grand scheme of things, if we'd won 1-0 in a dour game, what difference would it have made to our lives as Rovers fans? Some of those games we win - others we lose. Football's a game to stir up emotions and entertaining games like that do just that.

Don't get me wrong - when we lose a game like that I don't think "fantastic! A painful memory for years to come". Perhaps this is partly definitional - that I associate entertainment with drama. It's impossible to put into context at the time, but years down the line I can perversely look at games like that Charlton one and it sums up a lot of what I love about Rovers: the excitement of an away day, the sublime, the ridiculous, the courage to come back from the dead, the jubilation, the knowledge that the next kick in the teeth is just around the corner. "Entertaining" games like that can do that to me far more than three points on a league table that I can barely remember where they've come from can.

[Ozz]

Or, to put it another way-to truly appreciate the highs, one must first suffer lows.

[AndyC]

My thoughts are that the 2 dont have to be that far different if you have a footballing style. A philosophy.

With the money we have available at the club, i don't expect us to be able to compete with the big boys in terms of attacking flair, but i do object to the style of football SOMETIMES adopted by Sam. There were times when we had 9 men behind the ball and then just hit the ball high in the air - it used to drive me crazy.

Football can be a simple game if you decide to keep the ball. You don't need the best players in the world fot this. You just need to consistently press home to the players that giving away the ball is not an option.

Entertainment comes in many forms to many people. Personally, I would just love us to play with the ball on the floor. I dont mind if we pass the ball for 20 passes and then have to go back to the keeper because the opposition have defended well. Id jut look for us to try again. Pass and move all day long.

This should be a 10 year plan with the academy. Coach the philosophy from the age of 8 and you will get players coming through who are totally at ease on the ball.

[jim mk2]

But Jim you'll always remember that match. So we lost, but Jesus was I a proud Rover that night. We were magnificent.

Let's look at it from a slightly different angle - we play a pragmatic game and win that leg 1-0. We then lose 2-0 at Ewood (as was the case). This isn't unrealistic - neither Celtic goal that night was the result of us being counter-attacked recklessly seeking to erase the deficit. Do you remember the first leg more fondly than you do now?

.

Walking away from Celtic Park the feeling was one of deflation at a match lost, not one of elation at the way Rovers played. Rovers played Celtic off the pitch but failed to make their superiority count. I sensed it was an opportunity lost which proved correct in the second leg.

The League Cup semi-final last season at Villa was also a wonderful match because Rovers were trailing from the first leg and had to take the tie to Villa. We lost 6-4 in a match that will be remembered for years but for all the wrong reasons - we lost a semi-final and wonderful chance to play at Wembley.

Going back much farther I remember Rovers taking Tottenham apart 7-2 at Ewood in 1963 with a briliant display of attacking football.

Of course these matches stick in the memory but the point is with regard to Rovers' current plight there has to be a trade-off between "entertainment" and results and I'm afraid the way Kean has changed Rovers' style of play has been rumbled very quickly by opposition managers. It doesn't work and he is going to have to adopt a more pragmatic approach.

For those who are complaining that this has become another Kean / Sam debate it is inevitable given the title of the thread and the apparent remit given to Kean by the new owners and the reasons for his appointment because of the perceived shortcomings of Sam.

[Kelbo]

My thoughts are that the 2 dont have to be that far different if you have a footballing style. A philosophy.

With the money we have available at the club, i don't expect us to be able to compete with the big boys in terms of attacking flair, but i do object to the style of football SOMETIMES adopted by Sam. There were times when we had 9 men behind the ball and then just hit the ball high in the air - it used to drive me crazy.

Football can be a simple game if you decide to keep the ball. You don't need the best players in the world fot this. You just need to consistently press home to the players that giving away the ball is not an option.

Entertainment comes in many forms to many people. Personally, I would just love us to play with the ball on the floor. I dont mind if we pass the ball for 20 passes and then have to go back to the keeper because the opposition have defended well. Id jut look for us to try again. Pass and move all day long.

This should be a 10 year plan with the academy. Coach the philosophy from the age of 8 and you will get players coming through who are totally at ease on the ball.

And thats it in a nutshell, absolutely correct and at last someone who knows to play that way takes time, Wenger is probably one of the only managers to have benefitted from this vision because as Majiball rightly stated yesterday, when he joined Arsenal, he built from a solid defence and introduced little bits over the years, he has had the time to do this, most managers dont as it really is a results business.

However, to do this, as a club, there has to be a policy that will not change even, with a new manager and we must invest immediately in a good coaching team, I am not a big fan of foreign managers but a top Spanish coach would be my

choice as a football development coach/manager with a long term contract and plan. Spain are light years ahead of us coaching wise so lets get the very best now.

[jim mk2]

My thoughts are that the 2 dont have to be that far different if you have a footballing style. A philosophy.

Good idea in principle but not practical unless you have a considerable amount of cash and take a long-term view which is very difficult in the current game. Everton years ago used to have their "School of Science" and West Ham were always supposed to have their own particular brand of football but both ideologies have been lost over the years because of the need to grind out points for Premier League surivival.

[AndyC]

However, to do this, as a club, there has to be a policy that will not change even, with a new manager and we must invest immediately in a good coaching team, I am not a big fan of foreign managers but a top Spanish coach would be my

choice as a football development coach/manager with a long term contract and plan. Spain are light years ahead of us coaching wise so lets get the very best now.

agree totally. The new manager is then selected because they know he plays a certain style of football.

e.g. Dragan Stojkovic was recently announced by Wenger as his ideal replacement because of his footballing philosophy and unswerving commitment to playing a passing, pressing, attacking game.

Good idea in principle but not practical unless you have a considerable amount of cash and take a long-term view which is very difficult in the current game. Everton years ago used to have their "School of Science" and West Ham were always supposed to have their own particular brand of football but both ideologies have been lost over the years because of the need to grind out points for Premier League surivival.

maybe something to do with their ownership changing several times and so their long term outlook went to pieces.

[tonyoz]

So if I have this right; remaining in the Premier League is absolutely the be all and end all - the football can be the direst form of hoofball imaginable, just so long as we don’t get relegated. We can target the must win matches and it doesn’t matter much if we get stuffed by the glamour clubs. There is a good feeling coming away from Ewood after any kind of a win – even if there wasn’t much excitement or entertainment during the game.

If survival is achieved, we can look forward to more of the same the following year.

We will have ensured that we get our Sky zillions and will be able to pay our heroes their fair dues for the satisfying fare they have provided. We will get our 2 minutes on Match of the Day (but better turn the volume off when the pundits assess our performance) and any Burnley colleagues will simmer with envy at our success.

Sorry, there’s got to be more to the beautiful game than this. I loved the comments and genuine joy on here after the Liverpool game………..that’s what it’s all about – hadn’t heard the likes for ages. Maybe it isn’t possible to have success the Venky way but I’m glad we’re giving it a go.

[Mattyblue]

So if I have this right; remaining in the Premier League is absolutely the be all and end all - the football can be the direst form of hoofball imaginable, just so long as we don’t get relegated. We can target the must win matches and it doesn’t matter much if we get stuffed by the glamour clubs. There is a good feeling coming away from Ewood after any kind of a win – even if there wasn’t much excitement or entertainment during the game.

If survival is achieved, we can look forward to more of the same the following year.

We will have ensured that we get our Sky zillions and will be able to pay our heroes their fair dues for the satisfying fare they have provided. We will get our 2 minutes on Match of the Day (but better turn the volume off when the pundits assess our performance) and any Burnley colleagues will simmer with envy at our success.

Sorry, there’s got to be more to the beautiful game than this. I loved the comments and genuine joy on here after the Liverpool game………..that’s what it’s all about – hadn’t heard the likes for ages. Maybe it isn’t possible to have success the Venky way but I’m glad we’re giving it a go.

If this club is relegated there is every chance we could plummet through the divisions a la Charlton, Sheff Wed, Bradford.

Staying is this league IS the be all and end all, I have watched us in the lower leagues, I have spent Tuesday nights at Walsall, watched defeats at Port Vale, Grimsby, Tranmere et al. Lets not be nostalgic and romantic- it is DIRE down there.

Being in the PL allow us to have a presence, it attracts 27000 fans on the ground like last Saturday, it ensures our town club, a club from the very origin of the game is beamed around the world.

If we win and stay in the league, we attract a better player, Allardyce was Allardyce, a manager that helped us through a rough time, am I saying that he is the only option for a club like ours? Of course not, Mark Hughes is a prime example of a manager that has the whole package.

Winning football breeds confidence, it allows performances like Liverpool to be a regular occurence, but you must get the basics right- 'entertaining' defeats quickly sap confidence and we quickly get into an Ince situation. A club with our resources has only a loose grip on PL existence and we should cherish it.

[steven]

Results

[jim mk2]

If this club is relegated there is every chance we could plummet through the divisions a la Charlton, Sheff Wed, Bradford.

Staying is this league IS the be all and end all, I have watched us in the lower leagues, I have spent Tuesday nights at Walsall, watched defeats at Port Vale, Grimsby, Tranmere et al. Lets not be nostalgic and romantic- it is DIRE down there.

Being in the PL allow us to have a presence, it attracts 27000 fans on the ground like last Saturday, it ensures our town club, a club from the very origin of the game is beamed around the world.

If we win and stay in the league, we attract a better player, Allardyce was Allardyce, a manager that helped us through a rough time, am I saying that he is the only option for a club like ours? Of course not, Mark Hughes is a prime example of a manager that has the whole package.

Winning football breeds confidence, it allows performances like Liverpool to be a regular occurence, but you must get the basics right- 'entertaining' defeats quickly sap confidence and we quickly get into an Ince situation. A club with our resources has only a loose grip on PL existence and we should cherish it.

For all those who enjoy watching "entertaining" 4-3 defeats print off this post and frame it on the wall.

[rowz]

Surely the point here is that the manager is paid to make the "entertain or result" [football speak for a win or a draw ]decision on a game by game basis.Arsenal are rightly applauded for the fantastic passing and movement throughout the team ,however , I can assure you Mr Wenger has never said "don't worry about conceding a goal or two ,we'll just score one more than them", -did you see the state of him at the end of the Newcastle game !

Man U played City on saturday- at home ,5 points clear and with a game in hand.They started with one up front..Berbatov was brought on when City had equalised and Ferguson then made the decision to go for all 3 points.Every time Man U play Arsenal they start with 5 in midfield.

Remaining in the premier league is everything - the financial consequences of relegation threaten the very survival of clubs[Leeds ,Portsmouth etc] and the collapse can be swift - 5 of the current bottom 8 in the c'ship are ex prem teams .Would you be happy after being relegated " playing attractive football",suffering the same fate the next season ?.

We would all love to watch great football week in week out, but not at the expense of losing our place in the premier league

[LeChuck]

They started with one up front.

So? The numbers in a formation mean absolutely nothing, it's how they are applied. In reality a football pitch isn't split into three section, so you saying that means nothing really.

Look at Man Utd's first goal. Look how far up the pitch the wingers are - both Giggs and Nani get beyond Rooney, almost playing as wide strikers. In that situation they had three people in attack, not one. Had they played 4-4-2 then perhaps they would have only had two people in attack for that situation and not score the goal they did. It's all about application - get your midfielders high up and "one up front" can be more attacking, as Man Utd showed.

Most teams play one main striker because it allows for a more attacking midfield, which results in more fluid and more attractive football. One up front does not automatically equal negativity.

Arsenal also play with one main striker at home, but that's so they can push the likes of Walcott and Arshavin right up onto the opposition full backs, and give the likes of Fabregas much more freedom to play knowing that they have three central players. Look how many goals Nasri scores due to have more freedom afforded by a "one up front" system. Nothing negative in the slightest if it's applied correctly.

[tommm]

It's all about the result.

I don't think the Arsenals and Barcelonas want to see entertaining football for its own sake, but rather the best means to win games. The best teams want to play their brand of football because possession, movement and "entertaining" play allow them to exert their authority on a game of football against an inferior side and avoid an embarrassing result. When you're playing teams of a similar or higher quality (as Rovers usually are), trying to do this is not really an option, and you have to try to win by playing to your strengths (as we did with set-pieces under BFS).

The bottom line is that I only want to see us playing an entertaining style of football when we're playing against sides of a lower quality (i.e. Football League sides in the cup), or if our side significantly improves, and even then this would only be for the sake of getting a good result.

[den]

I challenge any one to define exactly, what "entertaining football" actually is.

[rebelmswar]

I challenge any one to define exactly, what "entertaining football" actually is.

100% commitment, blood, sweat, Rovers, a good result, and a beer.

[chris]

I challenge any one to define exactly, what "entertaining football" actually is.

Den also challenges you to a duel

[Majiball]

100% commitment, blood, sweat, Rovers, a good result, and a beer.

So if all our players ran round and sweated till blood came out and didn't touch the ball once you'd be entertained?

Provided you got your beer of course.

[den]

So if all our players ran round and sweated till blood came out and didn't touch the ball once you'd be entertained?

Provided you got your beer of course.

I reckon Maj, that no-one can answer/describe what entertaining football really is, without the end product being "result".

[Mandrake]

You can't tell a merchant to play the harpe. I feel that Sam recognized the weaknesses in the squad, and played thereafter. He had in essence, ZERO budget, and survival was key. Then FINALLY some money comes a long, he set out to get santa cruz, n'zogbia etc, and I believe he would adjusted the team to a more attacking ambitious style of play. He throughoutly deserved the chance to have a kitty - and I am sure the football would have then been better.

Steve Kean, really reminds me of P.Ince when it comes to lineups and playing style. No clear plan, wingling when it comes to "WHO are our best 11"?

I also fear that Steve Kean is too much of a buddy to the players, rather than a boss. I believe a small fear factor is needed for success.