[Archived] euro12 thread

[jim mk2]

England is not one of the world's leading football nations, only in England is that believed. England fans love to slag off Scotland, Ireland etc just as much as the other way round. It is not just because you have high expectations, but rather they are unfounded and do a disservice to other top footballing nations. And all the excuses.

England is regarded round the world as the "home" of football (even Sepp Blatter says so), it is home to possibly the world's strongest league and many of the world's top players play here - of course it is a leading football nation. The fact that the England national team is in the second tier of leading nations at present is unfortunate but does not detract from the above. England fans expect to do well but know we are unlikely to win - is that "doing a disservice to other top nations" ? Scots and Irish football fans with their hatred of all things English are like Australian cricket supporters with a constant chip on their shoulder.

[thenodrog]

Right for what it's worth

1. Hodgson inherited the poorest set of English players that I can remember. Unfortunately most of them have been conditioned / brainwashed by the whole circus to believe that they are better than they are. How many times do we read and hear the term 'world class' or the sillier 'worldie' used to describe some bog ordinary Premier League plodder who has managed to break into a top 4 team? I suggest the structure of the Premier League is largely responsible for this by destroying competition. We hear continual sound bites about 'pulling on the shirt' but imo it's just vacouos meaningless garbage.

Compare our lot to the Germans and the superb approach of Low. A completely professional approach with no Billy Big Times and no media favourites has seen pride, professionalism and self belief instilled throughout the team. Our 'hero' Wayne Rooney (who imo has been on the decline for at least two years) would get nowhere near that squad.

Think back to the 60's when we won the World Cup in 66 and could have quite feasibly done it again in Mexico. In the 11 years from 1960 to 1971 nine different teams won the 1st Division title and nine different teams won the FA Cup (pertinantly 17 different teams contested those finals). Compared that to the past decade when until City won it this year just 3 teams had won the Prem with 6 winning the FA Cup. imo this is the nub of it. A rotton and corrupt system which the Scots 'invented' and which has been their downfall. Footall is now a procession for the very few big boys with competition and the burning desire and urge to strive to be the best has gone. Many will read this, some will consider it and I'm sure most under 50 will dismiss it.

The Fat Cats at the FA are powerless and too deeply embroiled in the money culture to make a stand and change things for the better. In a nutshell Club now comes before Country right through football from the players to the media to the footballing authorities and until attitudes change English football will continue to spiral downwards.

2. No matter what Hodgson inherited he is not astute enough. I saw an improvement in team spirit this tournament and yesterdays match saw us compete toe to toe for 15 minutes until the Italians 'sussed' us. Gerrard was instrumental in the early stages so they stifled him. Pirlo was instrumental for them so we did nowt about him. Big difference. Not only that but we constantly fell back to guarding our pen area and allowing the Italians the freedom of the park whilst they in turn once they scented blood hunted in packs pressing and harrying the players on the ball everywhere on the pitch. The Italian manager was on the touchline the whole match influencing the players and tactics whilst Hodgson by comparison was sat on his arse, hunched, frequently looking at the floor and most certainly looking like he'd rather be somewhere else. Hardly conveying inspiration to the players was he? Obvious to me that the Italians desperately did NOT want penalties whilst we did.

Just as an aside.... Difficult to believe but I heard on the radio that Germany have NEVER beaten Italy in a major tournament!

[Ozz]

Good post Thenodrog.

[Rovermatt]

Listening to 5 Live last I have to say I'm baffled by the sense of shock at the England team's obvious tactical limitations.

[RoyRover]

England is regarded round the world as the "home" of football (even Sepp Blatter says so), it is home to possibly the world's strongest league and many of the world's top players play here - of course it is a leading football nation. The fact that the England national team is in the second tier of leading nations at present is unfortunate but does not detract from the above. England fans expect to do well but know we are unlikely to win - is that "doing a disservice to other top nations" ? Scots and Irish football fans with their hatred of all things English are like Australian cricket supporters with a constant chip on their shoulder.

The Premier League is the most exciting league in the world of that there is no doubt. But the strength of the league shouldn't be confused with the strength of the national team. As you rightly state England are in the second tier of nations. The influx of foreign players into the Premier League has made for a more exciting product but has had a detrimental affect on the national team. As for the comment about hating all things English, that's simply not the case. I happily lived and attended university in Bath which is one my most favourite places on earth and somewhere which couldn't be more English. London is one of the best cities in the world and is somewhere I visit regularly. Some of my families oldest and dearest friends are from Hampshire, London, Surrey, Somerset and Lancashire.

I've simply stated the exact same thing nearly everyone else on this board has. England are an average and limited side. They did well to get to the quarters. They are an irrelevance at the top table of world football. I hope that people don't come down too hard on them because nothing has changed between this tournament and the ones that have gone before apart from restoring some pride. There are deep laying problems within the structures of English football which have stopped them being successful in the past and which will continue to do so in the future. I have in no way revelled in their defeat or poor performances (unlike some). If you want to keep pushing the idea that in some way I'm having a go or am anti-English, then suit yourself. I could just as easily say that English people have a superiority complex when it comes to people like the Irish, who they see as just a bunch of thick Mick bog trotters who don't know their place. But I know that by and large that isn't the case.

[Amo]

What a contrast between Thenodrog's brutally honest assessment and Jim's patriotic mumbo-jumbo.

Rooney, World Class? He's not even Economy Class.

I also thought BBC's coverage last night was an absolute disgrace. How they had the nerve to devote an entire segment to labelling Balotelli a liability when England's "star-man" missed the start of the tournament for another needless suspension is beyond me.

Anyway, back to my sabbatical.

[RibbleValleyRover]

Andrea Pirlo:

"I didn't fear an upset as England barely created anything but just tried to defend and drag us to penalties. We stayed in control and in the end we won. We dominated the encounter and it's a pity we didn't take our chances during the 90 minutes or extra time. At least penalties sent the right team through."

[K-Hod]

We were poor last night, but we can only work with what we have.

We need some English players who can play- rather than athletes who can occasionally kick a ball....

The touch and technique of most of our players was shown up considerably by the Italians last night.

[Mattyblue]

Of course England is one of the heartlands of the game, however that means bugger all in tournaments if you can't pass a football.

[slough_rover]

All that bling, diamond earrings, chrome Lambos and £300 earphones and you couldn't hit the net from 12 yards. Ashley Cole, Ashley Young, you just got found out.

Look, we won our group but were clearly second best tonight. Despite incessant criticism from one poster on here I (and most of the commentary teams on the radio) think that Gerrard really put a shift in during this tournament. I'm not biased because of my username, been in Manchester for 8 years !.

Let the Scots and the Irish take the Mick, they didn't get anywhere (as usual)

Ashley Young yes but im sorry how did Cole get found out? The guy has been one of the best left backs in the world consistently for years now. One of our few if not only genuine world class player.

[MarkBRFC71]

Right for what it's worth

1. Hodgson inherited the poorest set of English players that I can remember. Unfortunately most of them have been conditioned / brainwashed by the whole circus to believe that they are better than they are. How many times do we read and hear the term 'world class' or the sillier 'worldie' used to describe some bog ordinary Premier League plodder who has managed to break into a top 4 team? I suggest the structure of the Premier League is largely responsible for this by destroying competition. We hear continual sound bites about 'pulling on the shirt' but imo it's just vacouos meaningless garbage.

Compare our lot to the Germans and the superb approach of Low. A completely professional approach with no Billy Big Times and no media favourites has seen pride, professionalism and self belief instilled throughout the team. Our 'hero' Wayne Rooney (who imo has been on the decline for at least two years) would get nowhere near that squad.

Think back to the 60's when we won the World Cup in 66 and could have quite feasibly done it again in Mexico. In the 11 years from 1960 to 1971 nine different teams won the 1st Division title and nine different teams won the FA Cup (pertinantly 17 different teams contested those finals). Compared that to the past decade when until City won it this year just 3 teams had won the Prem with 6 winning the FA Cup. imo this is the nub of it. A rotton and corrupt system which the Scots 'invented' and which has been their downfall. Footall is now a procession for the very few big boys with competition and the burning desire and urge to strive to be the best has gone. Many will read this, some will consider it and I'm sure most under 50 will dismiss it.

The Fat Cats at the FA are powerless and too deeply embroiled in the money culture to make a stand and change things for the better. In a nutshell Club now comes before Country right through football from the players to the media to the footballing authorities and until attitudes change English football will continue to spiral downwards.

2. No matter what Hodgson inherited he is not astute enough. I saw an improvement in team spirit this tournament and yesterdays match saw us compete toe to toe for 15 minutes until the Italians 'sussed' us. Gerrard was instrumental in the early stages so they stifled him. Pirlo was instrumental for them so we did nowt about him. Big difference. Not only that but we constantly fell back to guarding our pen area and allowing the Italians the freedom of the park whilst they in turn once they scented blood hunted in packs pressing and harrying the players on the ball everywhere on the pitch. The Italian manager was on the touchline the whole match influencing the players and tactics whilst Hodgson by comparison was sat on his arse, hunched, frequently looking at the floor and most certainly looking like he'd rather be somewhere else. Hardly conveying inspiration to the players was he? Obvious to me that the Italians desperately did NOT want penalties whilst we did.

Just as an aside.... Difficult to believe but I heard on the radio that Germany have NEVER beaten Italy in a major tournament!

Agree entirely. The Spanish and German Football Federations cared enough about the fortunes of their national sides to make long reaching, fundamental changes at a grass roots level and are now reaping the benefits. Until we get a similar commitment from the FA and Premier League we'll never compete.

Guardian writers pick their teams for 2014 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/jun/25/euro-2012-england-world-cup-2014) - I think I'd start qualifying with a lot of those players and discard the ones who will be too old and/or have proven to be consistent failures.

[elwaxo]

winter break anyone?

[Howler]

The truth is that England were for large parts of that game embarassed by a bang-average Italian side. Other than Pirlo, there are few world beaters in that team. If we had the basic ability to keep possession then we wouldn't have tired so quickly and would have stood a chance of nicking it in extra time. Other teams always have 2 or 3 options when in possession. England players with the ball often had no outlet, why weren't more players "showing" for the ball?

While I like Hodgson and believe he should be given time, his substitution of Milner instead of Young looked bizarre and he never seemed to have a game plan to deal with Pirlo. As others have mentioned, his body language in the dugout is also poor.

[Silencio]

he never seemed to have a game plan to deal with Pirlo.

i think rooney was supposed to be on him. if parker or gerrard had pressed him he would have picked us off even more. rooney had some good touches in tight spots last night but he's dumpy legged imo and was woefully out of shape last night. he might be better moving back into midfield if he gets any slower.

btw, WTF was Hart doing with those stupid faces last night? I bet the Italians thought he was a right plunker, especially as he had had his mates Gerrard and David James saying that he was "easily better" than Buffon and Casillas the day earlier. Seemed a bit too keen to speak to the media IMO. Good player but I hope he isn't getting to into his own hype. I guess it's a given that he thinks he's world class already as he plays for England...

[Audax]

I know friendlies mean nothing but should still have some use, still makes one wonder how England defeated Spain 1-0 last November, http://www.eloratings.net/England.htm , Italy lost to Russia 3-0 in a friendly before the tournament and USA defeated Italy 1-0 in February, http://www.eloratings.net/Italy.htm .... but I've thought Italy did look good in the group stage. Di Natale was not the factor yesterday.... USA drew with Guatemala, a weak result about 2 weeks ago in a World Cup qualifier.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Is this Salgado bloke for real or what?

Who are these 'arrogant England fans?'

We are average, the fans know we are average. You want to stop thinking that The Sun and talksport represent our views.

Believe me I don't do that at all. Would be like presuming the Daily Mail represents people's views. I used to live there and still do part time and generally, the ones who are country over club I find incredibly arrogant. Although admittedly less so after South Africa but I have spent my whole life dealing with them. I always appreciate not everyone is like that however.

Temper your bitterness with this ..... the fact remains that poor as we are a GB team would only contain one player from the combined Home countries and that would be Gareth Bale (who imo is actually the best too).

Bitter is the wrong word. England has 50 million people, Scotland 5 million and Wales 3 miillion so I'm sure that would be expected. Are you talking about first 11 or squad.....in fact I would probably play Bellamy upfront in the team anyway. I think Hart can make too many mistakes (fairly common for a keeper of his age) and especially don't like when he parries the ball back into the 6 yard box. McGregor is an excellent keeper and might be tempted to play him. If it's a tournament then I don't see the point of starting Rooney. Richards would play right back but if Alan Hutton started to produce the form he displayed for Rangers in Europe especially that saw him move to Spurs for 9 million then I would play him. But Hutton is awful these days. If you watched Scotland games then a fit James McFadden would definitely get a game. And the manager would be Scottish haha. My posts over the past few days concerning England I'm sure won't be appreciated by many but Scots are taught about all the despicable things the English used to inflict on us and we enjoy getting any comeuppance we can.

England is regarded round the world as the "home" of football (even Sepp Blatter says so), it is home to possibly the world's strongest league and many of the world's top players play here - of course it is a leading football nation. The fact that the England national team is in the second tier of leading nations at present is unfortunate but does not detract from the above. England fans expect to do well but know we are unlikely to win - is that "doing a disservice to other top nations" ? Scots and Irish football fans with their hatred of all things English are like Australian cricket supporters with a constant chip on their shoulder.

That's fine then I thought you still meant you were in the top tier of football nations. I get the sense that a lot of you aren't like the standard England fans I would always meet. Who themselves would argue that they would win because of their top players and my doing a disservice point is based on the fact that 6-8 other top teams had just as good players and they would say things like "Gerrard and Lampard are better than any other central midfielders in the world". This was fans of all ages btw. We don't hate all things English, it's more just sport teams. Not the people as that would be racism I suppose. It's mostly done in jest anyway with a cheeky smile and it's really not just bitterness.

winter break anyone?

They do it in other countries so I'm sure they must see it as effective. The season would have to start earlier and finish later though surely. Unless they scrapped the Carling Cup. England's players did look unfit the longer the game wore on. Could be a variety of reasons. Other teams have players who play in the Premier League. It would be the first thing I looked at if I was Hodgson though. I can't see it happening but I hope he isn't sacked and replaced with Redknapp. And I hope he realises now that 4-4-2 isn't a good idea against the top sides.

[jim mk2]

Scots are taught about all the despicable things the English used to inflict on us and we enjoy getting any comeuppance we can.

You inflicted Billy Connolly on us so I guess we are even.

[cn174]

They do it in other countries so I'm sure they must see it as effective. The season would have to start earlier and finish later though surely. Unless they scrapped the Carling Cup. England's players did look unfit the longer the game wore on. Could be a variety of reasons. Other teams have players who play in the Premier League. It would be the first thing I looked at if I was Hodgson though. I can't see it happening but I hope he isn't sacked and replaced with Redknapp. And I hope he realises now that 4-4-2 isn't a good idea against the top sides.

Most players playing for the bigger teams don't play in the Carling Cup (or lower rounds of the FA Cup for that matter). And the thing I think about the winter break is that again the bigger teams would just see it as a chance to have 'prestige friendlies' which has started to happen a bit in Germany and their players would be playing anyway. Maybe reducing the PL might work, but that's only 4 less teams.

Doesn't help us string 5 passes together tho

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Right for what it's worth

1. Hodgson inherited the poorest set of English players that I can remember. Unfortunately most of them have been conditioned / brainwashed by the whole circus to believe that they are better than they are. How many times do we read and hear the term 'world class' or the sillier 'worldie' used to describe some bog ordinary Premier League plodder who has managed to break into a top 4 team? I suggest the structure of the Premier League is largely responsible for this by destroying competition. We hear continual sound bites about 'pulling on the shirt' but imo it's just vacouos meaningless garbage.

Compare our lot to the Germans and the superb approach of Low. A completely professional approach with no Billy Big Times and no media favourites has seen pride, professionalism and self belief instilled throughout the team. Our 'hero' Wayne Rooney (who imo has been on the decline for at least two years) would get nowhere near that squad.

Think back to the 60's when we won the World Cup in 66 and could have quite feasibly done it again in Mexico. In the 11 years from 1960 to 1971 nine different teams won the 1st Division title and nine different teams won the FA Cup (pertinantly 17 different teams contested those finals). Compared that to the past decade when until City won it this year just 3 teams had won the Prem with 6 winning the FA Cup. imo this is the nub of it. A rotton and corrupt system which the Scots 'invented' and which has been their downfall. Footall is now a procession for the very few big boys with competition and the burning desire and urge to strive to be the best has gone. Many will read this, some will consider it and I'm sure most under 50 will dismiss it.

The Fat Cats at the FA are powerless and too deeply embroiled in the money culture to make a stand and change things for the better. In a nutshell Club now comes before Country right through football from the players to the media to the footballing authorities and until attitudes change English football will continue to spiral downwards.

2. No matter what Hodgson inherited he is not astute enough. I saw an improvement in team spirit this tournament and yesterdays match saw us compete toe to toe for 15 minutes until the Italians 'sussed' us. Gerrard was instrumental in the early stages so they stifled him. Pirlo was instrumental for them so we did nowt about him. Big difference. Not only that but we constantly fell back to guarding our pen area and allowing the Italians the freedom of the park whilst they in turn once they scented blood hunted in packs pressing and harrying the players on the ball everywhere on the pitch. The Italian manager was on the touchline the whole match influencing the players and tactics whilst Hodgson by comparison was sat on his arse, hunched, frequently looking at the floor and most certainly looking like he'd rather be somewhere else. Hardly conveying inspiration to the players was he? Obvious to me that the Italians desperately did NOT want penalties whilst we did.

Just as an aside.... Difficult to believe but I heard on the radio that Germany have NEVER beaten Italy in a major tournament!

I agree with a lot of that, I suppose us old timers have seen it all before with other nations.

I wasn't impressed with Roy Boy at Rovers and I'm not impressed with him now. Strange team selection, Strange substitutions, Inabilty to change the course of a game in any way for at least 100 minutes ! Let's be honest if that game had been a boxing match the referee would have stopped it because we were taking too much punishment. Even poor England teams in the past didn't get battered to that extent. Where do we go fropm here ? I honestly don't know. As someone else said all the skill/ful creative players in the Prem come from abroad, the xbox generation just doesn't produce the Bryan Douglas, Tom Finney, Johhny Haynes, Bobby Charltons any more.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

You inflicted Billy Connolly on us so I guess we are even.

At least sometimes he can be funny. Unlike Lee Evans.

[K-Hod]

Scottish people in being bitter towards England shocker.

Qualify for a tournament, then start talking.

[thenodrog]

Andrea Pirlo:

"I didn't fear an upset as England barely created anything but just tried to defend and drag us to penalties. We stayed in control and in the end we won. We dominated the encounter and it's a pity we didn't take our chances during the 90 minutes or extra time. At least penalties sent the right team through."

Bloody hell..... that Pirlo's English is flawless!

We need some English players who can play- rather than athletes who can occasionally kick a ball....

Not enough I'm afraid K-Hod. The Germans are both.

[Audax]

Edited out the quotes, it posted them two times.... but anyway.

Everyone has a right to speak but I will say, we saw a lot of this sort of thing in the old 606 boards and even when the soccerway site allowed comments, reading some comments here look familiar. That said, our neighbours are from Scotland and I don't press them, tend to believe they are neutrals and have some support for England but overall, just enjoy watching all of the matches .

I think Germany will have a big task on their hands to get by Italy, the two had a memorable game in 2006....this is where it gets interesting, Spain should over come Portugal but I will be for the "Seleçao das Quinas (Selection of the Shields)"....seems to be their nickname. And Eusebio in the hospital again... he was in there a few months ago. So we will see.

[thenodrog]

winter break anyone?

Wouldn't mind. Where shall we go?

i think rooney was supposed to be on him. if parker or gerrard had pressed him he would have picked us off even more. rooney had some good touches in tight spots last night but he's dumpy legged imo and was woefully out of shape last night. he might be better moving back into midfield if he gets any slower.

He'd have been better at left back............ left back in Manchester.

[Mattyblue]

The vast majority of real football fans wouldn't dream of putting country before club and therefore couldn't particulary give a monkeys either way about the national team most of the time.

Those they do are usually the types that are introduced lime this: 'next on 606 is Barry from Basingstoke who wants to talk about Man United'.