England

[Devon Rover]

17 minutes ago, philipl said:

Even more depressing than Rovers.

Great bit of hyperbole, there!

[speeeeeeedie]

34 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The idea would make sense to get a manager proven to win trophies in order to get over the line. Southgate built a base on team spirit but came up short whenever he came up against a good team.

Problem is, that platform isnt necessarily there, the squad of players has now regressed and is not at the level of previous tournaments. Much of the base and the foundations have aged and are over the hill now. You are left with a sub par set of defenders

People mention the likes of Wharton, Branthwaite, Lewis Skelly, Livramento etc as players coming through but they are not top level players, yet anyway. Wharton is as close as any but unproven at the highest level. It feels like we are between generations/cycles of players with

The mess at the end of yesterdays game saw maybe 4 players who all want to play in the same position all crammed in similar to what Carsley did. All of our best players do the same things in the same position. We are miles away from the levels of the likes of Spain.

It's looking like Southgate's trusted back 4; Walker, Stones, Maguire, Shaw is no longer. Replacing them is no easy task. There is plenty of talent available at both full back positions so that should be easy to fill. It's central defence that needs solving. Guehi was excellent (1 slip aside) at the Euro's. Left footed Colwill looked like Maguire's long term successor not too long ago but seems to have plateaued. Konsa is steady away without being van Dijk. Branthwaite is "unproven" (i.e. not at a Champs League playing club). Who's left? 

[speeeeeeedie]

54 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Of course unlike the plethora of players that have been given a go over the past year or so, Wharton would need to be actually given a chance.

I think Wharton's injuries cost him. He wasn't really fit all season and was out for Tuchel's first squad selection. As has been commented in his own thread a rest this summer will do him good as he hasn't had a break for a long time.

[roversfan99]

6 minutes ago, speeeeeeedie said:

It's looking like Southgate's trusted back 4; Walker, Stones, Maguire, Shaw is no longer. Replacing them is no easy task. There is plenty of talent available at both full back positions so that should be easy to fill. It's central defence that needs solving. Guehi was excellent (1 slip aside) at the Euro's. Left footed Colwill looked like Maguire's long term successor not too long ago but seems to have plateaued. Konsa is steady away without being van Dijk. Branthwaite is "unproven" (i.e. not at a Champs League playing club). Who's left? 

The thing about that back 4 was that it was set in stone. There is so much uncertainty now.

Left back is a real problem, Lewis Skelly has been fast tracked and isnt totally convincing and Hall again is a bit of an unknown. 

At right back, you are replacing one of the very best full backs in the world at the time. Trent is the obvious option there but Walker at his peak could neutralise any wide man, although his continued inclusion is unwelcome.

Im not convinced that any of the back 4 can be fully confident of being a starter next summer and thats not a healthy position to be in. And its not because we have loads of quality.

[RevidgeBlue]

4 hours ago, CaptainBeanfart said:

How can you say results were going backwards when his last tournament result was to finish runner-up?

You can make all the subjective performance criticisms you like. But, objectively, results were as good as 2018-2020.

2018 World Cup Semi Final

2022 World Cup Quarter Final

Same (losing) result in both Euro finals.

Not that hard to understand surely.

[RevidgeBlue]

Tuchel gave a lengthy interview on Talksport today and on the whole came across really well I thought.

One thing I strongly disagree with him on though is that he doubled down about having Henderson in the squad - he said having seen Henderson in the dressing room it made the other players better versions of themselves and he was even more sure it was the right decision to have him in the squad.

I really disagree with having cheerleaders taking up a place in the squad. It's the job of the manager and his coaches to get the players playing to their best and if they were told for example they could only have a 23 man squad instead of a 24 man one they'd go apoplectic.

But apparently it's OK to carry a passenger.

[speeeeeeedie]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

The thing about that back 4 was that it was set in stone. There is so much uncertainty now.

Left back is a real problem, Lewis Skelly has been fast tracked and isnt totally convincing and Hall again is a bit of an unknown. 

At right back, you are replacing one of the very best full backs in the world at the time. Trent is the obvious option there but Walker at his peak could neutralise any wide man, although his continued inclusion is unwelcome.

Im not convinced that any of the back 4 can be fully confident of being a starter next summer and thats not a healthy position to be in. And its not because we have loads of quality.

I agree with you. If all 4 were fit, they were playing. Now we have no idea. 

Injuries have played such a big part in Tuchel's decisions. James, Stones, Shaw, Hall, Guehi, TAA, have all been out for varying periods. 

Would Tuchel have considered Shaw and Stones if they hadn't been injured? They played less than 20 games between them all season. Will either of them play for their clubs if fit next season? 

Hall was excellent until his season ending injury. He'll be back fit for August, and will have Champs League football to look forward to. Same with Lewis-Skelly.

Availability questions aside it should be Reece James or Trent at right back. TAA playing in Spain will be interesting. Real have Alonso coming in, and Carvajal will be fit at some point. 

 

[chaddyrovers]

8 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

The idea would make sense to get a manager proven to win trophies in order to get over the line. Southgate built a base on team spirit but came up short whenever he came up against a good team.

Problem is, that platform isnt necessarily there, the squad of players has now regressed and is not at the level of previous tournaments. Much of the base and the foundations have aged and are over the hill now. You are left with a sub par set of defenders

People mention the likes of Wharton, Branthwaite, Lewis Skelly, Livramento etc as players coming through but they are not top level players, yet anyway. Wharton is as close as any but unproven at the highest level. It feels like we are between generations/cycles of players with

The mess at the end of yesterdays game saw maybe 4 players who all want to play in the same position all crammed in similar to what Carsley did. All of our best players do the same things in the same position. We are miles away from the levels of the likes of Spain.

Maybe if Tuchel actually make unpopular decision and pick the right team

[chaddyrovers]

Here is my 2 line up

           Pickford

TAA Guehi Colwill Hall

         Rice  Wharton

Saka    Bellingham  Gordon

              Kane

Next one

                      Pickford

Livramento White Guehi Hall 

                Rice  Bellingham

      Saka       Palmer     Gordon

                        Kane

My squad

Keeper - Pickford, Pope, Henderson 

RB - TAA, Livramento

CB - Guehi, Colwill, White, Tomori, Branthwaite 

LB - Hall, Myles-Selley

CM - Wharton, Bellingham, Rice, Jones, Comes, Anderson

AM/Wide roles - Saka, Palmer, Gordon, Gibbs-White, Madueke

Striker - Kane, Watkins

 

       

[K-Hod]

I'm not sure that going backwards under Southgate is how I'd frame it, but he'd definitely run out of road.

Interestingly, going backwards would probably be more applicable to us so far under Tuchel, tbf.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, K-Hod said:

I'm not sure that going backwards under Southgate is how I'd frame it, but he'd definitely run out of road.

Interestingly, going backwards would probably be more applicable to us so far under Tuchel, tbf.

“ Running out or road “ somes up the last few years of Southgate’s time in charge. If we’d have given him another 10 years we still wouldn’t have won anything. Looking into the future we haven’t got the players to win things. You need world class players to win trophies at international level and, with the possible exception of Bellingham, looking to the future we haven’t got any.

When we won the big one we had 3 players that would have got into a World Team. Banks, Moore, Charlton. With three more in Ball, Hurst and Wilson knocking on the door.

[Mattyblue]

Plus Jimmy Greaves who wasn’t even in the side!

[joey_big_nose]

2 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

“ Running out or road “ somes up the last few years of Southgate’s time in charge. If we’d have given him another 10 years we still wouldn’t have won anything. Looking into the future we haven’t got the players to win things. You need world class players to win trophies at international level and, with the possible exception of Bellingham, looking to the future we haven’t got any.

When we won the big one we had 3 players that would have got into a World Team. Banks, Moore, Charlton. With three more in Ball, Hurst and Wilson knocking on the door.

What Southgate achieved given he didnt really had any proven world class players except Kane and Walker is really impressive... Others like Saka, Bellingham, Stirling, Foden etc are all good at various times but have not stepped up to look really top level. Most of his teams had many very modest players like Pickford, Rose, Lingard, Alli, Henderson, Delph. He did it by having a clear strategy and plan, and luck in the draw. Rarely pretty but got us far in four successive tournaments. Southgate is undoubtedly the second best ever england manager.

We are starting to look really confused again, not really sure what Tuchal is aiming for. Very hard to look at english players now and see who the definitive players to build the team around are, and what system will get the best out of them. We are as always suffering from the "English disease" of too many similar attacking players who fail to work together which has plagued us for decades.

I would say though Wharton looks like exactly what we need. He is the sort of player who improves everyone around him and is decidedly different from the standard box to box engine rooms we tend to play in midfield. Surely cant be long till he gets a crack?

[chaddyrovers]

Under 21's showing the seniors how to play and control the ball