Jon Dahl Tomasson - Officially No Longer Our Head Coach

[islander200]

21 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 

The point I made was about squads inherited. Tomasson inherited a much stronger squad, before pre season, and with money spent on players.

It wasn't a top 8 squad he inherited though.The main reasons we finished as high as eighth had departed the club with the exception of Brererton who had stopped scoring at a ridiculous rate prior to JDT joining up.

I'm in agreement that when Mowbray joined the club he inherited a lot worse squad than JDT did but Mowbray didn't leave a squad on paper that should be challenging for challenging for promotion 5 of our main players from that excellent spell that got us to 2nd in the league had departed the club 

[Officer Barbrady]

I know some still worship in the Cult of Mowbray and I myself appreciate what he did here. but JDT is the one that will take us to the next level, whether some want to admit that or not. His tactics and how he carries himself simply works better with the players we have right now.

[roversfan99]

32 minutes ago, islander200 said:

It wasn't a top 8 squad he inherited though.The main reasons we finished as high as eighth had departed the club with the exception of Brererton who had stopped scoring at a ridiculous rate prior to JDT joining up.

I'm in agreement that when Mowbray joined the club he inherited a lot worse squad than JDT did but Mowbray didn't leave a squad on paper that should be challenging for challenging for promotion 5 of our main players from that excellent spell that got us to 2nd in the league had departed the club 

I never said that last bit, but factually there was a core of players that finished 8th, and money to replace the 3 out of contractors. What they both inherited and when they both inherited what they did are incomparable.

16 minutes ago, Officer Barbrady said:

I know some still worship in the Cult of Mowbray and I myself appreciate what he did here. but JDT is the one that will take us to the next level, whether some want to admit that or not. His tactics and how he carries himself simply works better with the players we have right now.

I would certainly prefer Tomasson and am happy Mowbray is gone. But there is no need to make Mowbray seem worse than he was which many like to do. Did a decent/good job but needed to go.

[tomphil]

The fact that JDT seems to be trying to make Gallagher into the traditional big strapping robust centre forward he always should have been says everything to me about his clearer mindset than Mowbray.

[roversfan99]

He has played much of this season out wide. His usage hasnt been massively different.

[booth]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

 

The point I made was about squads inherited. Tomasson inherited a much stronger squad, before pre season, and with money spent on players.

Where did you predict they’d finish?

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, booth said:

Where did you predict they’d finish?

I cant even remember but thats beside the point. I said in the summer that the expectation is surely to finish higher than where we finished last season. It is factually the bulk of the side that finished 8th. Kaminski, Ayala, Wharton, Pickering, Travis, Buckley, Dolan, Gallagher, Brereton. Without factoring in Dack and Hedges and prior to spending 4 or 5 million on new signings.

The squad that Mowbray inherited (mid season, in 22nd or 23rd) was a shambles following a summer in which we had allowed Owen Coyle to use his judgement armed with 250k to build on a bottom half side that then lost probably its centre backs and main assets, then Marshall in January, on the back of having a team full of loans once our best player half way through that unremarkable season.

[Upside Down]

Mowbray was, is and always will be a fucking dolloper.

Can we please stop going on about him, it's so fucking boring.

[booth]

21 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I cant even remember but thats beside the point. I said in the summer that the expectation is surely to finish higher than where we finished last season. It is factually the bulk of the side that finished 8th. Kaminski, Ayala, Wharton, Pickering, Travis, Buckley, Dolan, Gallagher, Brereton. Without factoring in Dack and Hedges and prior to spending 4 or 5 million on new signings.

The squad that Mowbray inherited (mid season, in 22nd or 23rd) was a shambles following a summer in which we had allowed Owen Coyle to use his judgement armed with 250k to build on a bottom half side that then lost probably its centre backs and main assets, then Marshall in January, on the back of having a team full of loans once our best player half way through that unremarkable season.

We lost Van Hecke, Lenihan, Nyambe and Rothwell. That’s four regular starters that would have been missed if all injured at once.

It’s also arguable, based on goals, that we lost Diaz for Brereton.

Sure we got Hyam and Brittain but only Hyam has been a regular up to now. JRC has been like a new player but it’s taken till recently.

I just don’t think the squad is “much better”. We have some good individuals but overall the squad is pretty thin. I think JDT is weaving some magic tbf. Anyone who can get a tune out of Gallagher is some sort of miracle worker.

[roversfan99]

6 minutes ago, booth said:

We lost Van Hecke, Lenihan, Nyambe and Rothwell. That’s four regular starters that would have been missed if all injured at once.

It’s also arguable, based on goals, that we lost Diaz for Brereton.

Sure we got Hyam and Brittain but only Hyam has been a regular up to now. JRC has been like a new player but it’s taken till recently.

I just don’t think the squad is “much better”. We have some good individuals but overall the squad is pretty thin. I think JDT is weaving some magic tbf. Anyone who can get a tune out of Gallagher is some sort of miracle worker.

My point was about what they inherited, not their ability as managers. Surely you could argue that to get such a good season out of Brereton, Mowbray warrants credit? He isnt a different person, as an individual Tomasson hasnt managed to get the same level of performance from him. Equally, has Tomasson got much of a tune out of Gallagher? He isnt scoring at a rate any quicker than he has done prior. 

I dont doubt that down to the continued poor running of our club, we lost key players. But most of the team finished 8th, and the manager (via a director of football) was able to spend a decent sum on replacements for the players that left, having started before pre season. Incomparable to coming in when in the relegation zone mid season with that shower of shite that we had when Coyle left.

Would I rather have Tomasson or Mowbray? Tomasson. And I think that so far, our results have been very impressive. But that is not what my comments are about.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

9 hours ago, tomphil said:

The fact that JDT seems to be trying to make Gallagher into the traditional big strapping robust centre forward he always should have been says everything to me about his clearer mindset than Mowbray.

For me it’s obvious - you either play him through the middle or he sits on the bench.

[M_B]

11 hours ago, booth said:

It was still a squad with, historically, no dependable centre forwards, few goals apart from Brereton (for half a season), loads of midfielders, two defenders and a midfielder walking out of the door for nothing. Let's also not forget our over reliance on youth to fill the gaps.

Mowbray left him with a lot to do.

I'm not disputing he's done well, it's been a great season up to now apart from the obvious few games. 

The squad he inherited, especially the number of young players, is  surely tailor made for the job he keeps talking about. 

I was responding to the comparison between the two coaches, I personally don't think there can be one. 

[Guest]

JDT is a better coach than Mowbray. Anyone who even considers it the other way around, or even plays devil's advocate is trolling. 

[tomphil]

40 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

For me it’s obvious - you either play him through the middle or he sits on the bench.

You mean you wouldn't spend 3 years trying to make him into a wide forward/winger ?

Can't think why not !

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

19 minutes ago, tomphil said:

You mean you wouldn't spend 3 years trying to make him into a wide forward/winger ?

Can't think why not !

Anymore than I would play him goal. Hang on a minute, maybe a guy 6’ 5” tall maybe ok between the sticks !

[smiller14]

Mowbray *did* a good job, but he should have gone long before he did. The air of inevitability about our post-Xmas collapse was depressing, and he sounded bloody miserable for a lot of the latter parts of his tenure.

JDT has been a weird one. When it's been bad, it's been absolutely god awful. But as I've said before, we'd inexplicably win the week after - no death spirals, just a weird resilience. And suddenly, the penny has dropped. Whether it's dropped for JDT or the players I don't know, but we suddenly an aggressive team out of possession, much more pragmatic on the ball, we pass it a lot quicker and manage to look less predictable. It seemed to coincide with signing Thomas and suddenly making the pitch look bigger, but it continued in his absence on Tuesday. I felt Tuesday's performance was as good as I've seen us play in years, and the fans responded in kind.

I've given JDT some stick in the past for some abject displays (although haven't called for his head - didn't agree with that) but you can't fault being 4th in the league, performing well in the cups and well in the hunt with 12 games to go. Something has clicked at the perfect time.

[booth]

9 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

My point was about what they inherited, not their ability as managers. Surely you could argue that to get such a good season out of Brereton, Mowbray warrants credit? He isnt a different person, as an individual Tomasson hasnt managed to get the same level of performance from him. Equally, has Tomasson got much of a tune out of Gallagher? He isnt scoring at a rate any quicker than he has done prior. 

I dont doubt that down to the continued poor running of our club, we lost key players. But most of the team finished 8th, and the manager (via a director of football) was able to spend a decent sum on replacements for the players that left, having started before pre season. Incomparable to coming in when in the relegation zone mid season with that shower of shite that we had when Coyle left.

Would I rather have Tomasson or Mowbray? Tomasson. And I think that so far, our results have been very impressive. But that is not what my comments are about.

I attribute Brereton's good "half" season more to Martin Lasarte than Mowbray.

He got more of a tune out of Gallagher than anyone else on Tuesday night. Different player.

You previously said that we had an underwhelming window in Summer, I think it was on the Gregg thread.

You commented that it was a "much better" squad than TM inherited. I don't think it was with the outgoings, I just think JDT is doing a good job with what he has. 

I'm not saying Tomasson's squad was quite as bad, but "much better?". I think that really downplays what we are achieving here with such a thin misfiring squad.

I don't think there was a Rovers fan that expected much out of this season when it began, or even after the Summer window closed. We may have a few better individuals but the squad was so imbalanced due to TM's bizarre experiment of false 9's midfielders, neglecting the defence and not playing with centre forwards. Also let's not forget how important Van Hecke was to last seasons unspectacular 8th placed finish. And if the Jan transfer window had been better, I think we'd be closer to second than third. I'll keep saying this but we were left with 8 goal Sam Gallagher as our only centre forward, and frustratingly still do. No one knew if Dack would come back in any decent shape and Diaz mania seemed a distant memory.

No one expected such a low scoring team to be 4th at this stage of the season, and through to the quarter finals of the FA Cup, and if you look at our goal difference, it really is amazing.

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, booth said:

I attribute Brereton's good "half" season more to Martin Lasarte than Mowbray.

He got more of a tune out of Gallagher than anyone else on Tuesday night. Different player.

You previously said that we had an underwhelming window in Summer, I think it was on the Gregg thread.

You commented that it was a "much better" squad than TM inherited. I don't think it was with the outgoings, I just think JDT is doing a good job with what he has. 

I'm not saying Tomasson's squad was quite as bad, but "much better?". I think that really downplays what we are achieving here with such a thin misfiring squad.

I don't think there was a Rovers fan that expected much out of this season when it began, or even after the Summer window closed. We may have a few better individuals but the squad was so imbalanced due to TM's bizarre experiment of false 9's midfielders, neglecting the defence and not playing with centre forwards. Also let's not forget how important Van Hecke was to last seasons unspectacular 8th placed finish. And if the Jan transfer window had been better, I think we'd be closer to second than third. I'll keep saying this but we were left with 8 goal Sam Gallagher as our only centre forward, and frustratingly still do. No one knew if Dack would come back in any decent shape and Diaz mania seemed a distant memory.

No one expected such a low scoring team to be 4th at this stage of the season, and through to the quarter finals of the FA Cup, and if you look at our goal difference, it really is amazing.

Yes, much better in my opinion. It is easy to forget quite how bad that squad was. Our central midfield options with Evans injured were Jason Lowe, Hope Akpan and Danny Guthrie! We had the likes of Gordon Greer, Adam Henley, Wes Brown, Derrick Williams and a very raw Darragh Lenihan and Ryan Nyambe, neither who had really established themselves. Jason Steele was the number 1 keeper, we did have (an ageing) Conway but also poor players like Feeney, Bennett and again Mahoney who had barely played.

Tomasson didn't inherit a perfect squad of course, but it was one with Kaminski, Ayala, Wharton, Pickering, Travis, Buckley, Dack, Hedges, Brereton, Dolan and Gallagher in it. Throw in 4 or 5 million to spend and a full pre season to work with the team and it is chalk and cheese.

Also, as I have said before, I am glad that Mowbray has gone but many have put themselves into a corner and simply cannot contemplate praising him for anything. You really think that the Chilean manager deserved the praise for Brereton's form after working with him in a different language for a couple of weeks? Brereton had really improved the season prior, yes I am sure he got some confidence, but also tactically last season it was perfect for Brereton. Playing on the counter attack and playing a role in which he wasn't the out and out striker but one of essentially a front 2 (with Buckley floating in between) really got the best from him. This season, the system has changed and he spends a lot of time very deep. Also, Gallagher had occasional excellent games under Mowbray, twice away at Preston, once at Boro and there are other examples. Overall this season, it has been a mix of playing wide and central, more often than not flattering to deceive and very infrequently scoring.

[booth]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You really think that the Chilean manager deserved the praise for Brereton's form after working with him in a different language for a couple of weeks? Brereton had really improved the season prior, yes I am sure he got some confidence, but also tactically last season it was perfect for Brereton. Playing on the counter attack and playing a role in which he wasn't the out and out striker but one of essentially a front 2 (with Buckley floating in between) really got the best from him. This season, the system has changed and he spends a lot of time very deep. Also, Gallagher had occasional excellent games under Mowbray, twice away at Preston, once at Boro and there are other examples. Overall this season, it has been a mix of playing wide and central, more often than not flattering to deceive and very infrequently scoring.

Yes. But, not just the coaching, but the other factors surrounding being called up to a national team and picked for a large tournament. The lad must have been walking on sunshine.

Gallagher had three good games with no other examples you can remember, because there weren't any.

Tomasson inherited a massive challenge no matter how you paint it, and at the beginning of the season no one predicted we'd be where we are. Mid season you stated in another thread that we had an underwhelming Summer transfer window and a poor January.

Yet you thought we'd improve on last season.

You can praise Mowbray all you want, but after 5 years it amounted to coming second in League 1, finishing 15th, 11th, 15th and 8th in the Championship, and leaving the squad in a state. That's just a fact is it not?

[roversfan99]

23 minutes ago, booth said:

Yes. But, not just the coaching, but the other factors surrounding being called up to a national team and picked for a large tournament. The lad must have been walking on sunshine.

Gallagher had three good games with no other examples you can remember, because there weren't any.

Tomasson inherited a massive challenge no matter how you paint it, and at the beginning of the season no one predicted we'd be where we are. Mid season you stated in another thread that we had an underwhelming Summer transfer window and a poor January.

Yet you thought we'd improve on last season.

You can praise Mowbray all you want, but after 5 years it amounted to coming second in League 1, finishing 15th, 11th, 15th and 8th in the Championship, and leaving the squad in a state. That's just a fact is it not?

I don't think the squad was "in a state" and I certainly don't think it was anything remotely close in terms of the state he inherited, which is the primary point that I have made. What Tomasson inherited could have been even stronger had the owners not intervened to stop us selling and reinvesting the Rothwell money, had they allowed delegation of Brereton's future and had any of the money from the massive profit made on a Mowbray signing last summer been reinvested, notwithstanding the fact that the main reason that it probably didn't was having to cover the general way that Venkys mismanage our club that hindered Mowbray and will hinder Tomasson.

Brereton as I said will have definitely had a confidence boost, but it is IMO from a point of refusing to give Mowbray any praise at all to not acknowledge his part in it. As I said, he had noticeably improved in the season prior to the Copa America, he was using his body better, he looked more confident and he was starting to score and assist. As I said, I also think that the tactics employed by Mowbray last season really got the best from him, playing on the counter attack a lot giving him space to run into, having him much further up the pitch than he has been this season and finding a role that allowed him to essentially be a hybrid of a striker whilst still coming from that left hand side. On Gallagher, he has only had a couple of good games this season, in general it has been a season again of a mixture of playing wide and central and not one in which his goal return has increased.

I thought that the aim should be to improve upon the league position we finished in last season yes, we have improved in all but one of the last 5 seasons and fingers crossed we will improve again upon that this season. As far as I was concerned, Mowbray had probably reached a glass ceiling, the point of the next manager is to go the next step. A play off place certainly would be exactly that.

I suppose a potential issue with the current footballing structure is that it is hard to assign responsibility as easily. I don't think we did have good windows really, but we have to take Tomasson's word that he is at least part of the recruitment process. That process won't change so it would undermine any point in saying "give Tomasson x windows" if he is that far removed from recruitment.

[wilsdenrover]

3 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I don't think the squad was "in a state" and I certainly don't think it was anything remotely close in terms of the state he inherited, which is the primary point that I have made. What Tomasson inherited could have been even stronger had the owners not intervened to stop us selling and reinvesting the Rothwell money, had they allowed delegation of Brereton's future and had any of the money from the massive profit made on a Mowbray signing last summer been reinvested, notwithstanding the fact that the main reason that it probably didn't was having to cover the general way that Venkys mismanage our club that hindered Mowbray and will hinder Tomasson.

Brereton as I said will have definitely had a confidence boost, but it is IMO from a point of refusing to give Mowbray any praise at all to not acknowledge his part in it. As I said, he had noticeably improved in the season prior to the Copa America, he was using his body better, he looked more confident and he was starting to score and assist. As I said, I also think that the tactics employed by Mowbray last season really got the best from him, playing on the counter attack a lot giving him space to run into, having him much further up the pitch than he has been this season and finding a role that allowed him to essentially be a hybrid of a striker whilst still coming from that left hand side. On Gallagher, he has only had a couple of good games this season, in general it has been a season again of a mixture of playing wide and central and not one in which his goal return has increased.

I thought that the aim should be to improve upon the league position we finished in last season yes, we have improved in all but one of the last 5 seasons and fingers crossed we will improve again upon that this season. As far as I was concerned, Mowbray had probably reached a glass ceiling, the point of the next manager is to go the next step. A play off place certainly would be exactly that.

I suppose a potential issue with the current footballing structure is that it is hard to assign responsibility as easily. I don't think we did have good windows really, but we have to take Tomasson's word that he is at least part of the recruitment process. That process won't change so it would undermine any point in saying "give Tomasson x windows" if he is that far removed from recruitment.

Do you think this is deliberate?

[booth]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I don't think the squad was "in a state" and I certainly don't think it was anything remotely close in terms of the state he inherited, which is the primary point that I have made. What Tomasson inherited could have been even stronger had the owners not intervened to stop us selling and reinvesting the Rothwell money, had they allowed delegation of Brereton's future and had any of the money from the massive profit made on a Mowbray signing last summer been reinvested, notwithstanding the fact that the main reason that it probably didn't was having to cover the general way that Venkys mismanage our club that hindered Mowbray and will hinder Tomasson.

Brereton as I said will have definitely had a confidence boost, but it is IMO from a point of refusing to give Mowbray any praise at all to not acknowledge his part in it. As I said, he had noticeably improved in the season prior to the Copa America, he was using his body better, he looked more confident and he was starting to score and assist. As I said, I also think that the tactics employed by Mowbray last season really got the best from him, playing on the counter attack a lot giving him space to run into, having him much further up the pitch than he has been this season and finding a role that allowed him to essentially be a hybrid of a striker whilst still coming from that left hand side. On Gallagher, he has only had a couple of good games this season, in general it has been a season again of a mixture of playing wide and central and not one in which his goal return has increased.

I thought that the aim should be to improve upon the league position we finished in last season yes, we have improved in all but one of the last 5 seasons and fingers crossed we will improve again upon that this season. As far as I was concerned, Mowbray had probably reached a glass ceiling, the point of the next manager is to go the next step. A play off place certainly would be exactly that.

I suppose a potential issue with the current footballing structure is that it is hard to assign responsibility as easily. I don't think we did have good windows really, but we have to take Tomasson's word that he is at least part of the recruitment process. That process won't change so it would undermine any point in saying "give Tomasson x windows" if he is that far removed from recruitment.

Not in a state... 

Brereton with half a good season our only hope, Gallagher the only striker, out of form or downright poor midfielders, Ayala a sicknote, Dack perhaps finished, only one fullback worth using, and even that was questionable considering Pickering's performances last season. It's not as if Dolan, Hedges, Pears and JRC were spectacular last season either. And the rest kids with little to no first team experience.

Edited March 2, 2023 by booth

[islander200]

If Tony Mowbray was the manager with this squad we would not be sitting in fourth place now.

Van Hecke, Khadra, Nyambe ,Lenihen and Rothwell were part of our strongest 11 last season.

A club loses 5 of it's better players from their first 11 but the new manager Should be bettering last seasons finish according to Roversfan.Ridiculous way of thinking imo.It wasn't squad players we lost ,they were major players in the excellent 3 month spell we had last season that led us to second place.As soon as a few injuries hit including Brererton we fell away.

Edited March 2, 2023 by islander200

[wilsdenrover]

4 minutes ago, islander200 said:

If Tony Mowbray was the manager with this squad we would not be sitting in fourth place now.

Van Hecke, Khadra, Nyambe ,Lenihen and Rothwell were part of our strongest 11 last season.

A club loses 5 of it's better players from their first 11 but the new manager Should be bettering last seasons finish according to Roversfan.Ridiculous way of thinking imo.It wasn't squad players we lost ,they were major players in the excellent 3 month spell we had last season that led us to second place.As soon as a few injuries hit including Brererton we fell away.

I doubt we’d have seen Philips, A Wharton or Garrett either 

[roversfan99]

3 hours ago, islander200 said:

If Tony Mowbray was the manager with this squad we would not be sitting in fourth place now.

Van Hecke, Khadra, Nyambe ,Lenihen and Rothwell were part of our strongest 11 last season.

A club loses 5 of it's better players from their first 11 but the new manager Should be bettering last seasons finish according to Roversfan.Ridiculous way of thinking imo.It wasn't squad players we lost ,they were major players in the excellent 3 month spell we had last season that led us to second place.As soon as a few injuries hit including Brererton we fell away.

More that the aim should have been to improve on last season, otherwise we may aswell have given Mowbray a new deal. A safe pair of hands who wouldnt push us too far on but would always have us well away from danger.

Whether he would have had us in the same position now is irrelevant. He had us on I think the same points as we have now after the same number of games after a summer in which he wasnt allowed to spend any of the Armstrong money but I doubt he would even still.

We spent 4 or 5 million in the summer and got more loans to replace those who left to build on the core of the squad that finished 8th.

We have moved well away from my point anyway that the states in which both managers inherited the playing staff in are poles apart. Id rather have Tomasson now and am glad that Mowbray left but he is not the waste of space that people like to paint him as after things went sour.

2 hours ago, wilsdenrover said:

I doubt we’d have seen Philips, A Wharton or Garrett either 

Mowbray brought through young players in his time here. Again, a criticism of him from his time that is unfair with people seemingly desperate to criticise him in any way possible. An average manager who did a decent job here.