Blue blood

Not at all. By lottery I take this to mean pure chance, you have no idea of what you are getting. That is very different from having known about players beforehand through how they have performed. The uncertainty you mention with Douglas - as in the difference between his performance with us and elsewhere - would be no different than if we had signed him permanently and he had performed like that. It isn't a lottery as in no idea what they are like, it's the uncertainty that applies to every transfer. If we are using that uncertainty as whether they will continue to perform then all transfers are a lottery which is not what was being discussed or implied. I will admit Elliott bucks the trend a bit - perhaps I should have used most - although he's perhaps a special case since he played for Fulham at a rediculously young age and Liverpool snapped him up. That alone suggests he had a bit more about him then most at his age. As for Bereton as I said before- 2 years of nothing for £7 million is hard to quantify in terms of opportunity costs. And a third season not being a £7 million player either isn't great. Does this season wipe out all of that? Possibly, but I think it's hard to say with such a hypothetical situation. Losing that from the budget for 3 years without much return cannot be good for a team. Add in he only came good in the last year and we have limited time on his contract - that's not ideal either. That said he has come good when most needed, and we will get a profit so perhaps that does negate all the negative aspects. It's certainly a better outcome than I expected! I guess the short answer to your question is because I remember the last 3 seasons. Indeed. I think the sentence shows more of my British awkwardness in disagreeing rather than trying to disallow you to have an opinion. Yes the loan market has changed over the years, and I think the transfer window system also encouraged teams to hoard players and makes less players available (the big teams could always buy them as and when needed instead back in the day.) All of that said whilst it's harder it is harder for all clubs fishing in that market, not just us. Lots of teams I think are similarly reliant on loans so I don't think it's just a Rovers disadvantage and other clubs have used the loans more successfully than us. That said the only other candidates off the top of my head who used it really well we're West Brom when they got promoted last time. (And maybe Villa? Unsure on thst.) So I am not sure how much it's a get out of jail for TM. I think the big thing for me is I wouldn't class Gally as a success and I don't think you can exclusively look at his transfers fees paid only category when judging his transfer record. There's been some key loans and costly free transfers as well which for better or worse is the market we are in and he should be judged accordingly on.

Sorry Gav I strongly disagree on a number of points. Whether measured by goals or any other metric Gally isn't very good and hasn't been for us. I don't think anyone thinks that the right wing expertiment for Gally has worked, and putting in a shift isn't really enough for a forward. He doesn't score loads, doesn't create much, doesn't hold the ball up well. For a significantly large fee (for us) that's a very poor return. He's been a bit better this season, but again, nowhere near £5 millions worth. Nor do I think it's fair to say loans are a lottery. That's not true, it's not a lucky dip! Perhaps if the player hasn't played professional/competitive football there is an element of uncertainty - beyond that of a normal transfer - but even that in itself hints at what is going to happen; their inexperience will cost us. Most loans however don't have that degree of uncertainty Tosin had just done a full session at West Brom, Douglas had played Championship before and so on. In most cases there was evidence of how they would shape up, and for the others we didn't really get anything other than expected from a novice. So it's not pot luck, and I feel that exonerates TM of his responsibility in these transfers. Bereton is an exceptionally interesting case. Does one good season and a profit negate two terrible years and one ok one at a huge cost for us? I can't think of another player like it. Perhaps McCarthy was the only one, with the difference being he didn't cost the earth and his good season came at the start. It's very hard to quantify the opportunity costs of that 7 mill and two dreadful seasons, but then they came when we had others scoring. I'll be honest I don't know how to quantify him as a success or failure, but will caveat it with I am enjoying his form. Would agree it's not all rubbish with TM but I do think his transfer record is very sketchy.

Think this is an unfair criteria as just because a transfer fee may or may not be involved doesn't necessarily influence their importance to the team. Walton is a case in point. "Just" a loan but played most games and cost us countless goals and points. Not sure well we didn't pay a fee for him is a valid excuse for how damaging he was to the team. Whittingham would be another - no transfer fee involved but one of our higher earners making it a costly mistake. Gallagher would be the first name to meet your criteria btw. I'll be honest Gav. Whilst I agree Venkys are the bigger problem TM is far from a good manager and I find it a tad strange that he's absolved of blame even as a symptom not the cause.

Gutted Ole has gone, he's been brilliant for United. Well, from my perspective. For anyone who wishes manure well then he's probably been pretty poor and this has been a surprisingly long time coming. To be honest he failed in most areas really. He never solved the Pogba conundrum of getting him performing consistently or shipping him out. He didn't win a trophy. The much maligned Jose and Van Gaal both managed this, so that's very poor in comparison. He spent a huge amount either badly or not getting the best from the players. Sancho was an excellent player pre United. Maguire is a fair weather centre back who struggles under pressure and is not worth £80 million. Despite spending vast sums he didn't address the key need of a defensive midfielder. All good teams need one, not sure how he missed this for three years. Mind you it was pretty clear from the Watford result the players had downed tools so it was inevitable the fun had to end.

Personally I'd ban every single one whose done a racist tweet or action for a period. That would send a proper message rather than these fake apologies where they are only sorry that they are outed. Cricket is in the gutters and needs an independent regulator as it's in a shocking state.

Its a shambles at WWE alright. I have no idea of the criteria they use. Insanely talented and popular like Keith Lee - released. Pure theatre (and when the likes of Balor and Lee are bumping for him credible) Kross - released. Hugely popular and over tapping into the music that WWE are trying to align with Hit Row - released. I mean it makes no sense whatsoever. Whatever criteria WWE are using its a poor one. What makes it worse is that they are giving great talent to AEW. Bryan, Punk, Cole, Black are all excellent talents who could be (and in 3 of the cases are) huge stars. It seems wrestlers wrestlers are all going to AEW which is going to swing increasingly more of the core audience. Perhaps they don't mind because of their profits, but you can't help feeling this is going to hurt WWE down the road. They can't keep shunting out the veterans forever. They need new and credible stars and a lot is resting on too few shoulders imo.

Appreciate the thought out response. For me (as my post details) there's a lot of other cautions. Besides even focussing on the one crumbling issue even if he stayed the course to playoffs for the season but didn't go up do you think the evidence is there that he would do it again? I'd say it'd be more against than for based on his history here. I think your point on building is spot on though. For all the talk of journeys we very much are a short term operation. We've done two resets in the past two seasons plus have 2 or 3 years before that and seen little building. So would agree he's not a builder either.

It's a hell of a coincidence that wherever he goes crap results follow that are never his responsibility. It shows how deep they are in the corruption that a Z list football coach want to be manager gets so much air time.

Whilst I get our league position is creditable given the squad we have there are a few factors that make me want to get rid of TM. Yes, it is a good position for the resources that we have but it's entirely TMs fault we have the resources/team that we do. He's the reason we have a paper thin squad. He's spunked so much on unneeded squad filler and his mates, he's overly relied on loans and he's not renewed contracts. it's beginning to come home to roost but if he has us in a good position with a weak squad remember he gave us the weak squad. What makes this even more astounding is he has had 4+ years to make such a weak squad, with no pressure regarding results and very limited forced sales. To be in this position squad wise given that environment is mental. Add in some of the worst runs ever that would have got any other manager sacked. Factor in we crumble every time we get near top 6 - a repeated theme. Consider his ludicrous playing players out of position. And there's the comments and slurs to fans. Put that all together and why would you want him anywhere near your club?

No hounding or closing out but would you like to try and explain why you think TM is doing a good job? In school we call it justifying opinions and encourage students to do so. To back up their points of view. Would be interested in the evidence of why TM is a good manager.

I sincerely hope you have never had a performance review in any job then! Criticism of a job badly done or where improvements are needed is not the same as abuse. Or maybe it's where he is called a liar or duplicitous - perhaps that's the abuse you are referring to? After all, saying fans expect 95 is clearly referenced in so many places. Perish the thought that any of his statements are ever scrutinised and examined. I think this is a real issue - that Rovers fans are perceived as abusing rather than justifiably criticising. In fact the latter has totally become extinct in some quarters which is a very worrying situation.

We probably need both! Though a right back is more pressing. Problem is let's say the players of contract and Bereton leave this summer, plus the loans that's another 8 players that need replacing. That's on top of the gaps from last summer's transfers too. Up front even if the two loan lads do it - and one good game doesn't prove it - they aren't here next year. Add in Bereton leaving and that's a fair bit of the forward options needing replacing, before we even think about improvement. That said we only have one right back, who is likely off, so that is probably an even bigger priority. But there will be more holes in the squad than a Swiss cheese - there's once again a ton of work to be done. And worst of all, this is all to stay still not improve.

I'm not sure what they think Lampard brings to the party. An organised defence? Getting the best out of his players? Getting teams punching above their weight? All of these are needed none of these he has achieved. As for Gerrard, I'll be honest. I'm not yet that convinced by him. Villa is a solid/safe move for him. They won't go down and he can learn about PL management there fairly safely, but is he that good. No cups in a 2 team league, only 1 league win, albeit an impressive one, in a 2 team league. A few decent European ventures to be fair are also a credit, but it's hardly an exceptional job. Given the resources at his disposal and the state of the league, it's not that big an achievement. Also had it not been the 10th title he was stopping would it be considered less of a triumph? I'm not saying he will be a bad manager but I don't think he has done enough to prove to me yet that he is a good manager. A decent spell at Villa would strengthen the argument he is a good manager, but as yet I don't think that can be said. All of that said he has potential, he has achieved something and he has done a solid job - which is streets ahead of Lampard.

I appreciate @Mike E doesn't need any help but is this really necessary or acceptable? I mean it was utterly and totally clear that apparently did not mean allegedly. Totally clear from the context and it's used in that way all the time. I'd be more willing to accept it was a genuine mistake if on the Premier League thread Chaddy wasn't both pretending to misunderstand a hypothetical and arguing the hypothetical at the same time. this deliberate misuse and fake misunderstanding of the English language is really poor and brings the message board down imo.

Interesting thoughts chaps. Personally with the resources available last season I think all three would have got us into the playoffs. This season I'm less sure, especially since none are particularly famed for using youth. To answer your question @speeeeeeedie I think certainly a year or two ago if these managers had been afforded time they would have worked it out. No question about it to me (assuming Venkys didn't mess it up which is a big assumption.) Now though? Managers do have shelf lives. Look at Grayson. Went from promotion king to struggling in his last few jobs. Or Jose - top manager to more of a flop. Even Hughes ending at Stoke and Southampton stint weren't great. So yeah managers do have shelf lives. Wenger - another example of this. So a good manager not past his shelf life would turn things round. BIt if a kop out that! Question is have they passed their shelf life. Last season you wouldn't have said so. Cardiff looked strong. Boro improved massively after the Woodgate debacle the season before. Odd that after promising seasons last year it didn't work for either this year.

So there is a big question mark over whether these chaps have had their day but here's the thing: at least they had a day. All three have been massively more successful over their careers than TM. McCarthy promotions with Wolves and Sunderland, managed an international team and had Ipswich punching above their weight. Houghton promotions with barcodes and Brighton who he also kept up. Warnock more promotions than hot dinners plus imo his best work keeping Rotherham up. All miles more successful than TM. Are they past it? Possibly - but all I think have shown they are better managers than TM will ever be. And if you had to appoint one of them for a club it wouldn't be TM. then there's the character side of things. After his latest comments I'd say Houghton and McCarthy are far better characters than TM - more integrity. Not the sole or most important factor in appointing a manager but my word it would be nice to have some integrity in the dugout. And here's another thing. When these managers have done badly they have been sacked by their clubs. TM has taken us on several similar runs and been kept in post. Would they have turned it round it they were so unsackable? I'm not so sure but at any other club TM would have been sacked several times over and labelled a failure. There may well be better managerial options out there. These guys may be past it. But on so many levels I'd say they are streets ahead of TM.

Agree. Also given Wharton coming back whilst we would be short there at least there are some players (not enough but some) to fill in at cb. RB & Rothwell - no one in the squad to replace them, and imo trickier players to replace too.

Not a TM fan and ultimately we will end up outside the playoffs but credit where it is due. Some odd calls but all worked out so well done TM and the team. A great response. Brilliant 3 points.

Guaranteed win. Whenever there's criticism TM pulls it out of the bag. A win, the natives quieten down, and then we can get back to avoiding the playoffs. Less interest then ever. TM is the most morally corrupt manager we've had since Kean (the only one worse than him.) Much as I want Rovers to win, I dislike the idea of such a loathsome individual succeeding. Never thought I would feel that twice in my lifetime supporting Rovers.

Good point. Yes he's calling it abuse but actually it's criticism of his poor performances. It's another of his sneaky sly underhand ways to avoid any kind of accountability.

Another thing: Mentioning the £200 million on full backs alone is slimy, weasel words and disingenuous in the extreme. Pep did that to win the Premier League. We are talking about the championship. How is that a like for like comparison. What a snake. Hugely irrisponsible, actively encouraging fans to police other other supports. Highly immoral too. Told you he isn't a good guy. Glad you don't let them get to you because if this is your response when not got to, I'd hate to see your response when they do!

That's really strange that Pep and £200 million is needed because I could have sworn that Blackpool and Coventry were in worse positions than TM inherited with is but are now above us in the league. And that's without either Pep or the dosh.

I think what pisses me off about this - aside from the sheer unprofessionalism of it - is how needless it is. It doesn't take a leap of imagination to think football fans would not be too impressed with their own players liking a post from a 7-0 dribbling. Nor is it a great intellectual feat to think even if it was done without any ill intent that it could be misinterpreted. Btw I think it is unprofessional not innocent but even if somehow you concluded it was ok, it might just cross your mind it could be seen negatively. Anyone with half a brain cell might see it is likely to go badly and not a good thing to do. Then of course there's the fact that not liking it is going to have zero effect. What would happen if they don't like it? The 7-0 doesn't stand? Their friendship with Reed is over? Reed begins to suffer from depression because he feels unloved? Not only are there negative consequences for posting, there are bigger all negative consequences for not liking it. So why do it??? Honestly footballers are a stupid lot.

Another brass necked comment in the LT from Total Mess is that the team deserves more credit than it gets. Who says that after a 7-0 loss? Deluded tosser.

Even with his lack of nous surely he shouldn't be surprised at getting stick after terrible runs and performances. A radical school of thought I know, especially round our way, but perhaps managers are viewed on their performance?