JHRover

Will there be another Forum meeting? I thought with Covid around the Club wasn't able to host such events due to risk. AKA Waggott doesn't fancy sitting through uncomfortable questions and will come up with any excuse going to avoid it.

Waggott got his job - massive salary and prestige of being 'top dog' at a big club in the Championship and without question the most prestigious position he has ever held - because he or Mowbray perhaps persuaded the owners that his appointment was in their interests and would benefit them in some way. I think since that day, coming up on 4 years now, his sole remit and focus has been on justifying his continued employment and position by doing whatever he can do get more cash through the tills and cut overheads. So at the annual review he can turn up with his spreadsheets, drop them on Mr Desai's desk and show how he has increased income/reduced the need for Venkys to dig as deep into their own pockets. Waggott's position has never been about growing the club/fanbase, developing the club in any way, strengthening the club or the medium to long term health of the club. All those things take time, effort, money, patience and ability to achieve. He and we don't have that here, where the entire operation limps along on a year by year review and owners whim. I'm not necessarily talking about subsidising cheap tickets, giving things away or offering freebies to get people back, but a stop to the relentless price hikes and squeezes on the regulars might be helpful in stopping a year on year decline in attendances. Waggott works on the numbers and will no doubt think he's doing a good job for the owners - also by not asking them for cash to replace the dilapidated pitch or cleaning the decaying stadium - good for the figures and his position - bad for the Club. Anyhow, he's about 67 now, last big payday here, maybe hang on as long as he can whilst his chum handles the football side and then they can both stroll of into the sunset and retirement leaving a rundown, overstretched mess of a club that has done nothing to try and even keep the fans it has let alone get more people in over the last 10 years. There's only so long that can carry on before it becomes terminal. Not that Waggott will ever be seen at Ewood again. I wonder when he last paid for a ticket?

There's a clue in that these changes are being introduced now. Already three games into the season and with match 4 in just 3 days time. Indicates that this is a Club operating on a whim, disorganised and with no strategy other than scrambling around desperately trying to unearth new ways to squeeze more cash out of regular fans. Maybe this is the reason our grand a day CEO has been so quiet recently, putting his time to use on a strategy for the club. Back of fag packet stuff, a busy component of the operation = squeeze for more, zero interest in the consequences of the decision. Don't like it then cough up for a membership or go elsewhere. End result likely to be the same as with attendances at Ewood. Decline but with those going paying substantially more it will be easier to operate and probably similar cash at the end of the day. Obviously a coherent operation would have introduced these changes months ago and publicised them before the season started rather than introducing them 3 days before our third home league game but then again I suspect Waggott knows he's in bother having demolished the attendances with his pricing so he's now responding to that with this.

I'm flummoxed by the Chapman stuff. It has been quite clear since the day he arrived here, even on loan in League One, that Mowbray doesn't like, trust, rate him enough to play him with regularity in our team. Fair enough, you win some you lose some. So why on earth was he given a new 12 month contract only a couple of months ago? I've no idea how much he is on but suspect we are talking 5k a week territory. A 12 month deal must be worth a quarter of a million easy. Why do that and then loan him out to League One again? For what purpose? I could see some business logic to it if we had extended his deal and then sold him on for a fee - that would be understandable although unlikely as any sensible buyer would have got in there first and told him not to sign a new deal here. I wonder if he was another with a 12 month extension option in the club's favour and someone (not Mowbray) decided to activate it in the hope of recouping some value in him....then as the window went on and there was no interest and to make space on the wage bill for the Brighton loan lad we decide to send him off to Burton for a few months. I don't think Burton will be paying his wages in full so we are back to subsidising a loan for him to play elsewhere.

Define mid table and do you really think that is acceptable in return for 4.5 years in the job and 9 transfer windows?

The Club have claimed that they cannot convene a shareholders meeting this year because of Covid. Meanwhile in the very same building they have been promoting and holding comedy nights, bingo, England EURO games and of course allowing thousands of fans to attend fixtures and hospitality. I think this sums up the contempt, lack of respect and ignorance they have for the supporters and giving them a platform to ask important questions.

Wasn't long ago we were pointing at Wigan and Bolton as examples of local clubs that we could end up like if Venkys walked away. Now they are spending more than us in the division below and getting more on watching. Wasn't long ago we were being told that we were doing things differently to the past and were building slowly but sustainably, ensuring the club had assets to fall back on. That now looks like a sick joke when you consider what we have left under rapidly expiring contracts and complete dependence on cheap loans to fill out the squad. Wasn't long ago Mowbray was talking about taking a few years to get us into shape for promotion to the Prem. Now I think most of us would be relieved if we limped our way to survival and even the most optimistic have set their ambitions at 'mid table'. Wasn't long ago we were being told that our new, steady, sensible, sustainable approach was the right thing to do to put us in good shape for the future and protect the club from the perils of FFP, whilst all those other silly clubs spending big money would suffer the consequences of sanctions. Here were are having been under an embargo and then since being released from that embargo have effectively been under a self-imposed embargo resulting in an inability to address glaring issues in the squad. Ever get the feeling that you've been had hook, line and sinker? The only folks to profit from the last 3 years appear to be Mowbray, Waggott, the staff and favoured players lavished with lucrative contracts. The club and fans certainly don't have much to show for it. Unless dire football and bottom half Championship is your thing.

I've seen a few saying that it is difficult to get deals done. So? What does the club pay these people for? Isn't the very function of a professional football club to be able to recruit and strengthen? The trouble we have here is that since the day we got promoted back to the Championship neither Mowbray or Waggott have been under any sort of pressure. They are left to set their own targets, carry on even if they miss them and there are no consequences to them. The media lap up all their excuses. Anywhere else they would have a board setting targets and if they weren't hit they would be fired. On that basis there would be a lot more urgency and pressure to get bodies in and strengthen. Here - who cares? Not going up either way, probably have enough to limp to survival either way. Not worth kicking up a fuss over. Mowbray will still be here and getting paid come next summer unless he packs it in.

The only things to surprise me today are the number of people who expected us to go and bring in a permanent striker today, and the curveball of then spending a fee on another LB, low down our list of priorities. I've always believed they were having us on and once again for all the talk there's little action to back it up. In my opinion, it was always an extremely unrealistic prospect and the people at Rovers knew this from the outset. Mowbray said as much for weeks on end until suddenly performing an about turn and claiming, bizarrely, that there might be some cash but that it would only be available for a CF. More nonsensical comments given we have now spent for the second window running on a LB but nowhere else in the team. Laughable when you look at the number of outgoings and cash brought in. All in all a complete failure of a transfer window, overseen by charlatans in Mowbray and Waggott. The sum total of their efforts is to bring in a LB from League 1 and 4 kids on loan. That is an absolute shambles both from a squad strength and business perspective, combined with failure on new contracts leaves us staring down the barrel. Even if we survive in the Championship this season we will reach next summer with no squad, few assets and an impossible task. A disgrace and a dereliction of duty from those running the club in allowing this situation to develop. All hail the Venkys though, at least they haven't left us like Bolton and Wigan (both of whom have spent more than us this summer). The icing on the cake now will be the sneaking out of Mowbray's contract extension. It is bound to happen. Anything other than a relegation battle this season will be portayed as a managerial masterpiece on Mowbray's part, next summer will require another huge rebuild and he will be painted as the best and only man deserving of that opportunity. He's the perfect manager for these wretched owners. Covers for them, praises them, never moans, gets on with it grateful for a job, will work with whatever rubbish they decide, play the 'leasing players' game and even hoodwink people into believing they are trying to spend but unable to.

Late interest in a cash purchase striker of Championship pedigree only to be thwarted at the last minute and have to settle for a loan or nothing instead? Where have I heard that one before?

Since those figures we have released Williams, Mulgrew, Bell, Bennett, Evans, Holtby, Downing and Armstrong, along with last season's raft of loans. We haven't signed anyone, nor have we even so much as signed any senior player up to new and improved terms. Our ticket prices are now among the highest in the league. Until recently our crowds were actually similar to quite a few others (though won't be for long at this rate). So something doesn't add up. There's no argument that we had a relatively high wages to turnover ratio last year, but with those departures that really shouldn't be the case any longer. If it is there is something wrong. Even if the issue here is restrictions and the ratio being too high for comfort, that doesn't stop permanent deals being done. This notion that any permanent transfer is prohibitively expensive and comes with massive demands from players and agents just isn't correct. But we seem so far behind the curve we are going backwards on bringing in the decent free agents. Probably because we are months behind others in planning and preparation.

Hoban was an injury prone loan signing. Shame for him but if he was seriously considered as a 'replacement' for Hanley or Duffy I think my point has been proven. The only circumstances in which I would support selling Nyambe this window would be if a new manager came in and either decided he didn't want Nyambe or Nyambe didn't want a new contract. I don't believe he has been offered a new contract or if he has that his offer has been remotely reasonable for a player of his importance or ability. Shame he's not Smallwood or Gladwin and gets good terms to sit out the months not playing. I've already dealt with the new contracts issued this summer. Those deals were not senior players. Their wages miniscule in the scheme of things and very easy deals to do. I'm amazed you are bringing up the Forest signing of Max Lowe. Experience at Derby, Sheff Utd and Aberdeen. Even those sort of signings are pipe dreams for us now with our Brighton and Leeds reserves. We've effectively become what Blackpool were 5-6 years ago under Oyston or what Stanley were in the time before their owner took over. Reliant on cheap, easy, generous loans to assemble a squad. If you think that is acceptable for this club then enjoy yourself. I do not think it is acceptable and will not tolerate it, and I don't care if Mowbray and the club have 'decided' that is it.

Its just the latest phase of Mowbray's never ending journey and process. Reading his comments in the Telegraph this morning it almost sounds as though he was unhappy with Armstrong netting 25 times last season and us being so reliant on his goals. He mentions only finishing 15th despite Armstrong's efforts which I think actually serves to remind people just what a poor job Mowbray did though he won't see it that way. Now the latest project he has is to spread the goals around the team more and not be so reliant on one striker. Sounds good but lets be honest this is just him getting ready for another transition and journey whilst the team goes nowhere fast. Then when the loans go back next summer and we lose another 7-8 out of contract and have another massive rebuilding job on our hands he'll come up with some other system, style or team he wants us to follow and it all starts again. Doesn't actually get the club anywhere because we are getting further away from the top 6 the longer he's at it and whatever assets we have are losing value or set to leave for nothing and nothing else is being brought in. But hey it sounds good, keeps him and his chums in good work and keeps a lot of supporters quiet so on it goes.

There's a theme developing here with Waggott - he talks the talk and promises much but the results of that are rather less impressive. He probably gets a rush of blood wandering the hospitality suites of Ewood before a game and can't help himself try to impress supporters. When the pressure was on back in January and the pitch was a disgrace he panicked and told people that he had lined up a multi-million replacement. In the end we get the usual make do and mend job. He's often promising to 'look into things' at fans meetings then nothing happens. So I'll believe it when I see it on contract extensions. Suspect he just tells people something they want to hear.

Did you miss the bit a few months ago about trying to sell Brockhall? Ultimately I agree that it is not a pleasant prospect. But I also see that those clubs still have the exclusive use and benefit of those facilities so on a practical basis it hasn't made much difference to them. Their grounds were 'sold' to their owners so that rental/Coventry nightmare wouldn't happen unless Venkys sold it to a third party. Those clubs haven't sold their stadia or training grounds for housing development like our mob were trying to do. Why do we need a summer of hardship? We've had a few of those - summer 2016 and 2017 also so this is the third time in six years that it has happened. Why can't we just have six steady summers, maybe sell someone for a good fee like Arma but reinvest half into new assets like Brentford did?

Bolton and Wigan had nothing to do with FFP. Their problems were caused by owners losing interest and stopping spending. I'm not interested in the so-called reasons why players wanted out or not. There's always an excuse. Bit like when Ben Marshall 'wanted out' and 'refused' a new contract and then later he admitted neither were true. I'm sure appointing a clown like Coyle would make any half decent player question his future at the club. Fact is that they were both sold for £10,000,000 and we signed Gordon Greer and Wes Brown to replace them and got relegated. No club in their right minds does that. I don't want Rovers to keep losing money. But I accept that if we want to even survive in this division that is going to happen. I am becoming increasingly tired with this inference that Rovers are a special case on losing money and having a high wages to turnover ratio. The name of the game in the Championship is that millions of pounds get lost every year. Don't like it then don't get involved with it. There is a way to avoid it - difficult - but it involves having a very productive academy or making big money on sales on a regular basis. We have the academy yet are allowing products from it to run their contracts down. We also have assets - Armstrong - sold for big money and yet still in this pickle. I'm not for one minute suggesting we spend £40 million. You're just being silly now. I don't accept that the club cannot even sign free agents or a few low price players and I do not accept that our policy of borrowing kids from Brighton and Leeds is sustainable, suitable or will lead to any sort of success. It is in itself at odds with FFP that you love to go on about - because if FFP is the big issue here then we need assets not loans.

Derby actually succeeded in circumventing the rules. They haven't recieved any points deductions. Sheffield Wednesday did get a points deduction which contributed towards their relegation. That points deduction was imposed after they were found guilty of back dating their accounts to fiddle their FFP calculations. It was not imposed for spending too much. The only club to get a points deduction for spending too much was Birmingham - they waited until they were safe in mid-table then gave them a 6 point deduction that made no difference to anyone. Birmingham and Derby are in the Championship still. Other FFP breakers such as Bournemouth, Leicester, QPR, Cardiff, Reading, Fulham don't seem to be doing too badly either. A transfer embargo now would make no difference to our present predicament. You can still sign players under an embargo - so we could still go with our begging bowl to Brighton for their loans and could even sign free agents provided their wages were within limits. So I'm struggling right now to understand how an embargo would be an issue when we are limiting ourselves so much to supposedly avoid an embargo. What difference would an embargo have made to our business this summer? Not made up but just amazing how so many other clubs manage to expertly avoid any difficulties with it whilst for the second time in four years we are now having to slash costs and cut right back supposedly in some desperate attempt to avoid sanctions.

Everyone on here offers their interpretation or opinions as facts. That's the point of a Forum. Do I need to add a disclaimer to every post that I make?

Crowds of 10,000 - so do many other clubs in this league Sponsorship down - why is this unique to Rovers? Wage bill far exceeding income - welcome to the Championship Spent more on transfers than received - no longer the case thanks to Armstrong and Raya You seem obsessed with the Ayala deal. He was a free agent. End of story. Whatever signing on fee he got as a free agent from Middlesbrough we do not know. Probably a lot less than the cost of paying for a CB from another club. As I keep on saying- what is more important - getting promoted/surviving in the Championship or complying with these rules and risking relegation to League One?

People have come on the Forum and given their opinion or interpretation of the FFP situation. That doesn't mean it is correct or entirely accurate. Venky's current management of the club is on similar lines to what it was in 2017 under Coyle. Selling assets, no money, cheap loans and a manager who shouldn't be here. You can credit them for pumping in essential funds to keep the club in business and meet their liabilities and commitments. But all this trajectory is going to deliver is further decline and loss of assets on free transfers. Stupidity and short sightedness. Next news is we lose Lenihan and Nyambe on free transfers and you will be using FFP as an excuse on why we can't do anything. Sort one and the other follows.

Middlesbrough are losing millions a year too. When they came down from the PL they squandered their parachute cash under Garry Monk, spending tens or millions largely on dross. This was in 2017 so not long ago. Then they fired Monk and his staff, brought in Pulis for a year or two. Then he left and they had Woodgate then sacked him and got Warnock. I think the reality of the situation is they have an owner with a desire to spend and ambition to back his manager as much as possible. We have excuse makers, liars, charlatans who will hide behind any excuses they can find and FFP is a blessing for them to do so. I simply don't accept that Middlesbrough are able to do business as I identified above yet despite selling Armstrong, spending very little on fees for players in the last 2 years and slashing the wage bill that we are still treading carefully on FFP. Does it not occur to you that Venkys might have just got fed up of spending and turned the taps off again? Thanks also for confirming my point which was that the transfer fees are always reserved for the strikers. Rothwell a free agent, Davenport a minimal fee, Rodwell free, Palmer and Reed loans Mowbray now saying he will only get funds if it is on a striker. More reason to believe the owners will only sanction cash on a player if certain requirements are met.

The fact you mention Rhodes brings me back to another relevant point to this discussion though. Cast our minds back to 2012. There was some horrendous business done with Murphy, Gomes, Etuhu and co. coming in on free transfers but substantial wages (sounds familiar). Then all of a sudden, unexpectedly, out of the blue, late on in the window they suddenly spend a club record £8 million on Rhodes. A welcome addition who over the next 3.5 years would prove his value in goals but nonetheless an eyebrow raising deal for someone with little pedigree and none above League One. Plenty would argue that £8 million and his wages would have been better spent on 3-4 other positions signing decent players, but it seems that was never realistically going to happen and the Rhodes cash just materialised late on, either through change in circumstances or someone deciding to have a spend. Certainly similarities with the Brereton deal. After we got promoted from League One a sensible approach would have been to invest sensible fees in multiple positions to prepare and improve us for the Championship. Armstrong was a good one to get done and a decent fee but had already shown his qualities in his loan spell. Other than that what did we do on incomings? Little as I can recall. Then again, just as deadline day approaches we seem to have a big pot of cash that all goes out on one young British 'up and coming' CF, this time Brereton. Eyebrows raised, Forest can't believe their luck, yet all the hard currency goes on one player when it would probably be more sensible to spread it around. I'm not saying the owners are in this to make a profit, that will never happen due to their mismanagement, but I am saying that the only times they have stumped up the cash for significant transfer fees has been when someone at their end is persuaded or is confident that the player in question is going to quickly increase or at the least hold their value. To be fair it worked well with Rhodes and Armstrong. But they don't seem willing to spread that around the pitch. Like buying a couple of solid quality CBs or a game changing force in CM. People we can build a team around for a few years. Those positions have received pitiful investment regardless of who the manager has been. A bit like the figures are in our favour now we've just sold a player for £15 million+ and cut the wage bill massively?

Sorry if I've missed something but I'm not sure what Rhodes has to do with what I was on about. I was merely stating in my original post that in my opinion the only substantial fees Venkys have paid out on players in recent times have been on three strikers who they were persuaded or convinced were projects - young, English, likely to score goals - and thus would be most likely to attract big bids and big profits on their investments. Some might say that is a sensible way to operate - and I agree - to a limit. Of course signing people expecting them to improve and grow in value is sensible - but that has to apply across the board and be secondary to the priority of getting a squad for promotion. Since 2018 I think we are now looking at a profit on transfer fees with Armstrong and Raya out and Armstrong, Gallagher, Brereton, Pickering and Kaminski in. So it's really only the wages they've lost on - a lot of money - but they never seem to be too bothered about that. There have been a couple of other insignificant fees - a few hundred grand on Pickering, Kaminski and Davenport - find me a Championship club that hasn't at least found those sort of fees from time to time. The rest have all been loans or frees. Yes - I've credited the owners for allowing larger wages than they have to and larger than many rivals could afford. It seems to be the cash outlays that they don't like. This includes expenditure on facilities and The wages can get heaped onto the payroll or the debt mountain and doesn't require them to agree to sanction extra spending.

Middlesbrough lining up loan deal for Cameroon international midfielder James Lea-Siliki from Rennes - having missed out on Heerenveens Mitchell van Bergen, who opted for Stade Reims. They also still believe a deal for Sporting Lisbon striker Andraz Sporar is on track (Graeme Bailey). No FFP or Brexit issues for mighty Middlesbrough who aren't going cap in hand for injured Brighton reserve players.

What about them? I firmly believe that the cash buys you refer to were only sanctioned on the basis that all 3 players were expected to turn around substantial profits quickly. Armstrong did, could have been much more but suspect they are happy with their £10 million on him or whatever we ended up getting. The other two less likely but it is clear what the intention was/is with them. I don't think any of those cash purchases were sanctioned because Venkys believed those players were going to immediately improve the team or club. Don't get me wrong - Mowbray has had good backing and we've little to show for it - and yes Venkys do provide for a wage bill that some rivals could only dream of - but I don't think they are sat at home keen to see Rovers grow, prosper or succeed. I think Mowbray goes over there, persuades them to stump up some cash because it will turn a profit or whatever so they roll with it. Now the taps are off again because they are bored/disillusioned or whatever so we all have to suffer the consequences of the next phase of their confusion. For half of Brereton and Gallagher they could have rebuilt the Riverside, deep cleaned and upgraded Ewood, bought a new screen, installed a Desso Pitch and improved the fan experience. Yet there's nothing. Nowt to do with FFP just a general couldn't give a stuff attitude and do the bare minimum to get by.