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Asian Tsunamis


Timmy

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My aunt, however, has been to a charity shop, and they were soing soemthing originally a a novelty xmas gift, where you can buy thing for the less fortunate, so she has bought 10 chickens to be sent.

Ironically the chances are that those chickens were produced in SE Asia.

Isn't there some strong suspicion that the San Andreas fault could cause something similar in California? I'm sure that I saw something on the tele a while back about that.

As for PhilipL's 'monitoring' suggestion, monitorings fine and with a little luck a few lives would be saved (if the roads could cope with the traffic that is) but buildings, railways and other man-made structures would still be totally trashed so wouldn't it be much better for people to be encouraged to move to higher ground?

The area the Americans are most worried about for tsunamis is where the fault goes under relatively shallow water off the Pacific coast of Oregon and Washington States.

If that slips with the force of the Sumatra quake, Seattle would get a phenomenal shaking (the buildings are supposed to be all earthquake proof) and some ten to twenty minutes take hits from 90 ft waves.

That's what the west coast of Sumatra has just been through.

There is not a lot one can do in those circumstances but there is a great deal that can be done when pressure gauges pick up tsunamis travelling across open ocean. Taking that analogy, Hawaii would have about three hours notice before the tsunami hit and east Asia at least ten hours to evacuate.

Coming back to the current catastrophe, tsunami waves only travel relatively small distances across land- a mile or so at most on the level- as they expend much of their energy gaining height as they slow in shallow water and loose most of it in the first hundred yards or so of hitting land- that loss of energy is what makes them so destructive.

The Thai beaches could have had a warning of at least an hour after the Hawaii monitoring station accurately measured and located the Sumatra quake. An hour is plenty enough to evacuate people a few hundred yards (don't you think the Thais would have had a mass evacuation plan ready following the Bali bombing?)

Being utterly parochial, but given there are about a hundred American casualties, perhaps the Americans wish they'd tried harder to impart the knowledge they had at that critical moment.

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I am so pleased that Jan Egelund of the UN did use the word "stingy" in responding to the financial efforts by the west. Even now, after more than doubling the aid offered, the USA is still only offering the same amount as Australia- a country with less than 10% of the USA's population.

So, Philip, you going to put your money where your mouth is and go down there and help out? Or will it take you too long to get off of your soapbox?

The amount the Bush administration first offered was less than the equivalent of 10 minutes interest on the US national debt.

Yes, I'd call that stingy.

It's also hypocritical for you to be criticising and not doing anything about it yourself. Put your money where your mouth is - I'm sure the Red Cross needs plenty of volunteers to go over and help out. Instead of sitting in front of your computer and bitching, get off your ass and get over there. I bet you are one of those who thinks the US should be staying out of international affairs. Tune changes now.

You don't factor in that we already have a huge debt, plus recent disasters in our country we are still paying for. Of course Australia should be helping out, it is in their back yard. How much is Malta giving? Or is it not your problem? Also factor in that the Red Cross gets a lot of its donations from the US that end up being tax deductible that will help out. In the end that money goes from the US Treasury into the hands of the Red Cross that helps out.

That's the problem with you bleeding hearts. You think everyone else should be doing their share, as well as yours. You don't want to be bothered, just want to complain about the people who are at least doing something.

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The amount the Bush administration first offered was less than the equivalent of 10 minutes interest on the US national debt.

Yes, I'd call that stingy.

Well I'd call it a firkin big national debt! blink.gif And it is!

Just as an aside Philip have you got any figures to show how much aid the affected Asian countries sent to the US after 9/11 or indeed after the Mt St Helens eruption? huh.gif Maybe that would introduce some perspective to your argument.

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It's also hypocritical for you to be criticising and not doing anything about it yourself. Put your money where your mouth is - I'm sure the Red Cross needs plenty of volunteers to go over and help out. Instead of sitting in front of your computer and bitching, get off your ass and get over there. I bet you are one of those who thinks the US should be staying out of international affairs. Tune changes now.

You don't factor in that we already have a huge debt, plus recent disasters in our country we are still paying for. Of course Australia should be helping out, it is in their back yard. How much is Malta giving? Or is it not your problem? Also factor in that the Red Cross gets a lot of its donations from the US that end up being tax deductible that will help out. In the end that money goes from the US Treasury into the hands of the Red Cross that helps out.

That's the problem with you bleeding hearts. You think everyone else should be doing their share, as well as yours. You don't want to be bothered, just want to complain about the people who are at least doing something.

American,

I'm sure that Phillip can argue this for himself without my help, but the amount that the richest nation on earth has offered is the equivalent of a bag of chips at half time at Ewood.

And that said, the UK goverment has started off with £15m. The equivalent of two chips dabbed in a bit of ketchup. A total embarrassment.

I find it a bit depressing all this bitching about "what did you do then?"

Nah nah nah. No of us are really accountable for what our governments give in aid, we can lobby & protest and pressure the best we can.

On a personal level you can either turn away and ignore, or dip your hand in your wallet or purse and stuff some money into one of the aid agencies accounts.

I know which route I will be taking. The Government of my country has, so far, shown itself to be tight as a duck's a**e.

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The Thai beaches could have had a warning of at least an hour after the Hawaii monitoring station accurately measured and located the Sumatra quake. An hour is plenty enough to evacuate people a few hundred yards (don't you think the Thais would have had a mass evacuation plan ready following the Bali bombing?)

Actually, if I recall correctly from my time there, it would have been fairly easy to evacuate the people near Patong beach, Phuket to higher ground. There are many accessible roads into the nearby hills and mountains.

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From BBC News headline:

US forms quake relief coalition

President Bush says the US will form a coalition to lead aid efforts for victims of the quake disaster.

I am growing to detest the repeated use of the words "forming coalitions". Surely there are alternatives in the English language. I guess it is the latest catchphrase.

Edited by Shaddy
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Perhaps now is the time for a real 'coalition of the willing'.

I'm sure you'd find that the majority of Australians are very happy for our government to give lots of taxpayer money for aid.

And many Australians will also give additional donations to the Red Cross and Oxfam etc.

it is our 'backyard', and Australians do travel so much in S.E. Asia. Not to mention the amount of immigrants and family connections we have in the region.

I think the 'stingy' response regarding the US initial contribution was related to the US initially under-estimating the scale of destruction.

At the moment, the death toll is as big as any of the major earthquakes over the past few decades (e.g. Mexico City, Armenia, Iran), but it is likely to get bigger.

But the spread of destruction over several continents is something that hasnt' been seen since Krakatoa.

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Before everyone shoots me down in flames for the following comparison, I realise it isn't a like for like one, and make it only to illustrate the totally screwed up priorities currently being exhibited by all our leaders. The UK, US and other members of the "coalition of the willing" have spent billions of pounds on instigating regime change in Iraq, ostensibly for the good of the Iraqi people and in order to make the world a safer place. Whatever your personal opinion on the war in Iraq, one thing is undeniable; it was an expensive business for which we, the taxpayers, will ultimately have to foot the bill.

In contrast, the people of South East Asia are currently facing the greatest humanitarian crisis of modern times. The death toll has already risen to more than 100,000. In the weeks and months ahead that figure is likely to eclipse 1 million as disease and starvation take hold. The West's response? Pocket change (in international terms) and vague promises of aid and assistance.

As stated at the start of the post, in many respects this is an unfair comparison, but all I am saying is that as a tax-payer I would be far happier seeing my money going to disaster relief than to the continued funding of the "war on terror". The paltry sums being pledged by Western governments in response to this disaster (and they are all paltry, for those looking to do a little mud flinging) only confirm my long held belief that we are led by idiots. Can anyone really say that this is a surprise? In response to American; in one sense you are quite correct, America should not be castigated to a greater or lesser degree than any other Western power for it's wholly inadequate response, because every governmental response thus far has been wholly inadequate. However, telling Phillipl that unless he is on the ground he can't be helping is wrong.

As Colin says, sod the official response. Donate what you can to the Red Cross, Oxfam, whoever. Even if it's just a fiver it will help. If some of you took the chips off your shoulders it might speed the process considerably. This political squabbling is as unseemly as it is counterproductive.

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but all I am saying is that as a tax-payer I would be far happier seeing my money going to disaster relief than to the continued funding of the "war on terror".

Spot on Morph. There isn't an arguement to be had here, the response from ALL Western nations has been, and probably will remain, paltry and yet we are prepared to spend hundreds of millions on a war in Iraq. What's the difference - oil. I will not be making ANY financial donation but I am clearing out clothes I don't wear to be added to aid parcels from Oxfam etc.

The world would be a far, far better place if the Western nations, so ready to go to war for oil, would realise relieving the abject poverty of billions around the world would contribute more to global peace and security than any regime change ever can.

That is a tremendous post from Morph

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The Italian government have told the mobile phone networks to get together and issue one number for a charity text message. The text costs just one euro and all the cash goes to the relief fund.

It's been an incredible success. Just about everyone has a mobile phone these days, and you can help whilst waiting for the bus or watching telly, genius.

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Well done to the Italian government for coming up with that scheme.

As some of you know, i was in Sri Lanka a few months back and to think that some of the people i saw everyday, chatted to them about cricket, played table tennis with, bartered with and generally had a real nice time with...they could all be dead now.

I'll be honest, if i was actually in my job now with the RAF i'd be begging them to let me go out there and help. But seeing as i'm currently in training i can't see it being allowed. Although i will be asking when i return.

The devestation caused by this tsunami is incredible. To think it's even hit the shores of Africa and killed people frightens me.

I just hope the people of the affected countries do not suffer for too long and i hope the world helps them in every way possible.

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Why does everyone say "Western Nations"? China has only pledged $2.6 USD so far.

And Colin, my point is that if you are going to criticize someone for not doing something, then you'd better be doing as much, if not more. It would be like a Blackburn resident criticizing the fans for not showing up, while he sits at home on matchday.

I'm saying, don't only put your money where your mouth is, put your time and energy. I'm sure they need volunteers more than they need money right now.

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aside from all the poltical arguments...

what I find very distressing is the places I visted 4 years ago such as Phuket, Phi Phi, of the Thai west coast in ruin. Bodies lying on the same beaches, that i had such a great time on only 4 years ago. Of course not as distressing as if I had been their at the time (or if I was one of the locals who is/or was dependent on people like me visting their country)

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The world would be a far, far better place if the Western nations, so ready to go to war for oil, would realise relieving the abject poverty of billions around the world would contribute more to global peace and security than any regime change ever can.

Sounds good but easier said than done .

As our American implies , when does the espousal of Western values in Asia or Africa - ie. economic growth and "democracy" - become a policy of cultural interference bordering on imperialism ?

For example , how can you give aid other than by collaborating with the governing regimes ( and thereby helping to prop them up) ; regimes who , as has been the case in the past simply stash the money in Swiss bank accounts ? By replacing the regimes ? Maybe that would create more warfare than prevent - and it would also have the liberal brigade up in arms (or at least up in their armchairs )

On the other hand , maybe an imperialistic world order led by a US coalition is the only true way to ensure every mouth is fed - but I'm sure most would reject such a method out of hand - correctly IMO as all nations should have the capacity for self determination.

Unfortunately many seem to want the benefits of US culture , wealth and technology without the drawbacks that all empires inevitably bring .

Just one more point ; instead of criticising the US , shouldn't the more self righteous amongst us be criticising the UN ? Surely this is the one role in which THEY should take charge ; although at present Kofi Annan has the more pressing diversion of allegations of corruption to cope with - it seems members of his family have been benefiting a little too much from this largely US funded talking shop....But I digress...

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Bloody hell,

I know this board sometimes descends into chaos & bitching in a big way but this takes the biscuit.

Give it a week and the death-toll will be approaching a quarter of a million. (not science, just me talking off the top of my head.)

I'm sat here in a warm house with food and clothing and a job to go to tomorrow, and internet access and a car outside to get me from A to B*.

Just like the most of the rest of us on here.

There are people out there who have lost everything they ever had, and that was probably close to sod-all in the first place.

I feel disgusted that the Government of my country cannot offer more than a measly £15m and that the richest nations on earth (who are generally "western") are being equally Scrooge-like. It's no excuse to say that China has only offered $x. If China is a bad example then why follow it?

And as for the arguement that we should only help our own?

They are human, I'm human. End of discussion.

* gearbox knackered. I'm still alive, I'll get over it.

Edited by colin
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Go and stick you're head in the Daily Hate Mail. That was a pathetic post.

On the contrary it was a perfectly reasonable post pointing out the discrepancy between our overseas aid , such as it is , and our budget to accommodate the quite different category of people who arrive on our shores unannounced each year .

Please try and supress your urge to censor my posts simply because you disagree with their political content . Or refer the matter to a more objective moderator .

Thankyou

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