[Archived] Are English Players Over Coached

[Kelbo]

Having seen the latest debacle of our National Football team, I do wonder if players are over coached and we are seemingly producing clones of each other.

You cant plan to stop instinctive football, good players dont need to be told where to make their runs, they work on a telepathic nature with a good player on the ball, they can be given coaching re positional play but thats it, you dont produce players such as the Italian Midfielder who simply ran the game by telling them to play pretty triangles and one touch football, they are comfortable on the ball and play the defence splitting ball which instinctive to a good player.

James Milner, Henderson, Young etc cant do that, maybe Gerrard can but its 100 mile per hour football, the Europeans only play with pace on the counter or in the last third of the park and there is always a playmaker who has more quality than we have!!

Indeed, if we look at the top sides, most of the midfielders are non British!!

What do you think?

[Majiball]

It's much deeper than that and goes all the way down to the kiddies football. Attitude ethics morals are all wrong here and its encouraged to be as you want. Look at Wayne he's a great example of exactly whats wrong with the UK.

[Kelbo]

It's much deeper than that and goes all the way down to the kiddies football. Attitude ethics morals are all wrong here and its encouraged to be as you want. Look at Wayne he's a great example of exactly whats wrong with the UK.

Thought that may tempt you to post, like Rovers though, England looked so unfit, OK, we are told we defended well, to a degree, I would agree but how many chances did Italy greate?

As for kiddies football, yes, too many dads telling their lads to get stuck in, not allowing them to express themselves and worst of all, having kids training, they need a ball at that age and a little help with teqnique!!

[Ferrit]

The problem is they aren't coached in the technicalities of the game, hence why we don't produce technically gifted players very often.

[Alex Rover]

As for kiddies football, yes, too many dads telling their lads to get stuck in, not allowing them to express themselves

This is a huge problem.

[Hughesy]

Kids footy is changing as the FA have agreed new rules around number of players at younger ages etc, and also smaller goals etc.

There isnt any problem with the dads telling kids to 'get stuck in' - tackling isnt an issue. Its just too many kids want to run with the ball and take the whole team on like Messi, that needs coaching out of kids, and very often isnt.

The reason England players looked shattered yesterday, much like us last season is down to possession.....dont keep the ball then your doing all the chasing. I dont like the spanish keep ball and pass it around without really attacking much style, but you need a balance of possession in your game. Englands highest pass combination last night was Hart to Carroll (15 times), that tells you all you need to know.

[arbitro]

The article below demonstrates one of the problems with youth football and why we produce players who are too rigid and one dimensional. Good coaching will enhance ability but poor coaching will stifle it.

Another issue with our game is that there is usually a requirement to play at a high tempo (somtimes this is due to crowd demands) and this cannot b done for the duration of a game. How often did Pirlo's (or indeed many of the Italian players) heart rate get above 80-85% of it's maximum last night. Compare that to say Gerard who seems to sprint everywhere and there would be a huge gap between the two.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jun/01/football-coach-shortage-england

[AllRoverAsia]

Kids footy is changing as the FA have agreed new rules around number of players at younger ages etc, and also smaller goals etc.

There isnt any problem with the dads telling kids to 'get stuck in' - tackling isnt an issue. Its just too many kids want to run with the ball and take the whole team on like Messi, that needs coaching out of kids, and very often isnt.

The reason England players looked shattered yesterday, much like us last season is down to possession.....dont keep the ball then your doing all the chasing. I dont like the spanish keep ball and pass it around without really attacking much style, but you need a balance of possession in your game. Englands highest pass combination last night was Hart to Carroll (15 times), that tells you all you need to know.

Wrong - kids should learn techniques not tactics. What does a kid care about formations and why label a young kid as a defender or a forward. Let them 'play' with the ball and learn their football skills. The idea should be to breed footballers not coaches.

[MarkBRFC71]

Wrong - kids should learn techniques not tactics. What does a kid care about formations and why label a young kid as a defender or a forward. Let them 'play' with the ball and learn their football skills. The idea should be to breed footballers not coaches.

Exactly. There should be no competive games until they're at least 11 - get them comfortable with the ball, and work on developing skill and technique. Further, our coaching system is way too geared to finding athletes and trying to make them into footballers; not finding the best technical players and making them fitter. We need more players like Xavi and Iniesta, not more clones of Stevie G.

[Kelbo]

Wrong - kids should learn techniques not tactics. What does a kid care about formations and why label a young kid as a defender or a forward. Let them 'play' with the ball and learn their football skills. The idea should be to breed footballers not coaches.

Correct, learn their skills and techniques, if a player keeps running with the ball and losing it, they will not develop, however, we should not discourage it as the better players will develop by doing that, if a lad continually shoots at goal, again, dont discourage it, allow them to develop and offer them an option to shooting, we dont shoot enough and try to work too many moves to pass the ball in the net, how many shots did Balotelli have yesterday? He scores lots of great goals by doing simply that!

As I said earlier, no running/doggie style training for kids, let them have the ball and try and improve their technique and pace, all the pace in the world will never compensate for a good first touch though, thats what gives you time on the ball!!

Wher coaching needs to step up a gear is to make more players comfortable using both feet, fed up seeing Young want to come inside on his right foot, easy to stop, if he could pass and cross the ball with both feet he immediately doubles his options

[JAL]

Dont agree with Hughesy about stopping kids from running with the ball.

Think it should be encouraged whenever possible, with tricks, feints and acceleration built in to a strong end product wether that be the pass, shot, or cross..

Failure to do so potentially denies ourselves a modern day Bryan Douglas

[Veevs]

Kind of agree on the coaching aspect, you look at nations like Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, Spain and Italy and the kids there learn their football on the streets before moving onto local teams, from what I have seen in England we remove the fun from coaching, aim for Gerrard type players, are far too competitive, pigeon hole players at an early age, we focus on highlighting errors and correcting them, is only about football and does not produce rounded individuals, it is mostly repetitive, does not focus on the technical aspects of the game and we do not really have the technical idols that these other countries have produced.

[DP]

I don't think it stops with the youth players either. Rooney is a classic example of raw talent who has been coached to be far more disciplined, play as part of a system and in doing so IMO he's lost that little bit of magic and is nothing more than a very good number 9 now.

It looks like the same is happening to Ashley Young now as well. He was fearless at Villa and would have a go at many a full back. I don't remember him trying to take on his full back once in this tournament.

Don't get me wrong I do like watching manure's style of football but like many premier league teams, the home grown players very quickly get utilised as workhorses for the more flamboyant, but less 'dependable' foreign superstars.

[Mike E]

The simplified problem (imo) is that we try to teach tall/strong/athletic people how to play football, rather than coaching people with touch and technique to be stronger/faster/fitter. Even then, being quick is just helpful. Being strong and having the stamina to last a full match are more important.

I base this merely on seeing my nephew play for his school. He and 3 others have touch and technique (for their age). The rest are just 'the taller/older kids' tbh.

[cn174]

Interestingly I think Hodgson was one who foresaw the troubles that youth football was going to have in the future. My brother was at Rovers when the academy was being built and it when Hodgson was manager. Round the back of it (I don't know if it is still there) he had this zone built which had big walls, small walls, pavements, roads with patches of grass dotted here and there. His reasoning for this was that in the future from then kids wont play on the streets just having kick abouts, playing wallie and stuff like that, so it was kind of emulating a 'natural' environment for kids to play. Everyone thought he was complete bonkers, and by the time it had been built he'd left Rovers and I can't recall my brother ever using it. He also brought in a little bit about diet and nutrition and everyone thought he was bonkers about that too!

I recently went to watch my cousin play for North End. He's in the u10s and it surprised me how little anything had changed from when my brother was that age at Rovers. It was 8 a side but still playing on a too big pitch with too big goals. The coaches were weird and didn't say anything at all during the games but at half time they were told to get it up front quickly.

The other thing which I think is still very common is that in England is they look at how big kids are rather than how much footballing ability they have.

[Baz]

Interestingly I think Hodgson was one who foresaw the troubles that youth football was going to have in the future. My brother was at Rovers when the academy was being built and it when Hodgson was manager. Round the back of it (I don't know if it is still there) he had this zone built which had big walls, small walls, pavements, roads with patches of grass dotted here and there. His reasoning for this was that in the future from then kids wont play on the streets just having kick abouts, playing wallie and stuff like that, so it was kind of emulating a 'natural' environment for kids to play. Everyone thought he was complete bonkers, and by the time it had been built he'd left Rovers and I can't recall my brother ever using it. He also brought in a little bit about diet and nutrition and everyone thought he was bonkers about that too!

I recently went to watch my cousin play for North End. He's in the u10s and it surprised me how little anything had changed from when my brother was that age at Rovers. It was 8 a side but still playing on a too big pitch with too big goals. The coaches were weird and didn't say anything at all during the games but at half time they were told to get it up front quickly.

The other thing which I think is still very common is that in England is they look at how big kids are rather than how much footballing ability they have.

I think it's Technique based on control, pass and movement that's needed. Too often in youth games, the taller faster lads just physically dominate games. Adding a good element of two touches into training would help to encourage ball control and creativity in passing too.

The goals I agree should also be shrunk, along with pitch sizes and teams too, 7 a side probably ideal on a tennis court sized pitch up to say 11 years old.

Imagine if some of the English kids could control the ball as well as Tugay, who regularly could not only control the ball, but beat a man at the same time.

[Hughesy]

Dont agree with Hughesy about stopping kids from running with the ball.

Think it should be encouraged whenever possible, with tricks, feints and acceleration built in to a strong end product wether that be the pass, shot, or cross..

So if you shouldnt teach a greedy play to pass a ball....how will they decide to pass/ cross the ball?

[JAL]

So if you shouldnt teach a greedy play to pass a ball....how will they decide to pass/ cross the ball?

Thats when you educate them as they go along and face different challenges, different moments in different games.

Every time they touch the ball Hughesy make sure they look up and see whats around them, if they keep their head down with every touch then you must teach them to raise their head and let them select the right option,(pass shoot or cross or continue to run with the ball) if they end up with a shot at goal the thats what you want a goal even better. If they keep losing it then sub them and teach them they either improve or move but dont do it just so your lad can get a touch and that helps satisfy yourself in the process.

[McClarky]

Over coached? The opposite more like. They are not equipped with the basics and are found wanting every time against decent opposition. As I see it we are getting steadily worse in comparison and there are no grounds at all for optimism no matter what Roy says. We can"t keep hold of the ball, we can"t follow simple tactical plans and always seem to be knackered later on in games. I think it"ll be a long time till we are challenging again as our players aren"t even playing regularly gainst top opposition with their clubs as their managers don"t rate them. The likes of Wellbeck, Milner and Young turn out against the likes of us but are on the bench for the high pressure games where discipline is needed. Classic example last night where no one could pick Pirlo up, why not. He was stood in space every time you saw him and no one had the basic intelligence to go and put him under pressure. Really poor!

[McClarky]

Not even that convinced by the defending. If JT is so great why did Italy find it so easy to lob the ball over the top to unmarked strikers. With decent forwards they could have had 3 or 4 by halftime.

[Hughesy]

Totally disagree, Hughesy. The Messi's and Pele's of the football world probably took a ball into their back yard or into the streets and became its friend - learned the physics of it, how to control it, how to love it, etc. - all by themselves.

Why then are Barca, probably the best passing side in the world, Famous for playing tiki taka and also well known for teaching kids it all the way through the academy. That requires a maximum of 3 touches to start, going down to 1 when good enough. They use that technique in all the age levels....whether your messi or not

Its all good being able to run with a ball, but the key is getting control of the passing part of the game. Master that and the rest comes easier.

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

Just in the process of sorting out a school team for next season (we haven't had one for a few years!) and was quite pleasantly surprised with the new initiative re seven aside games for under 11's and smaller pitches/nets.

When I was at kid at school we played break/dinner with a tennis ball on pitches not much bigger than a tennis court (they'd banned footballs for health and safety!). Ironically, after a couple of years trying to control a tennis ball, a size four was a doddle

Now we have astroturf, 5 a side and full length goals and all the kids do is kick it as far as they can and all run after it!

I've no coaching qualifications but we are just practising controlling the ball and one/two touch passing in triangles, trying to stop them charging around.

[Majiball]

Thought that may tempt you to post, like Rovers though, England looked so unfit, OK, we are told we defended well, to a degree, I would agree but how many chances did Italy greate?

As for kiddies football, yes, too many dads telling their lads to get stuck in, not allowing them to express themselves and worst of all, having kids training, they need a ball at that age and a little help with teqnique!!

Sorry mate that's not what I mean. Hard work doing the right thing, helping others are all encouraged on the continent, christ some clubs vet parents as they form the children psychologically. We don't do this we cuddle and mollycoddle and tell them to do what they want when they want, give them what they want when they want. We build poor habits in them from a young age and that translates into everything they do in the rest of their lives. 17 year old kids driving 80K cars earning 10-20K a week doing what they want when they want to whom they want, it's little wonder britain is pants at the sport it invented.

[purplegrover]

I can relate to the post which described how Hodgson built the replica 'backyard' for kids to just kick the ball round. From what I see, kids don't do that anymore. And I think that is part of the problem. What football there is, is regimented - like a chore. Almost like school. Its just not fun - its just something you do that keeps Dad happy. Kids just don't play in the street anymore. They're mollycoddled into staying safe at home because the world is just full of 'danger and perverts'.

Its rubbish! The world is no more dangerous now than it ever was. Its just that the media has made us paranoid.

Thats the difference between Britain and Brazil/Argentina/Spain/Uruguay. Those countries still have what we had back in the day - kids playing football on the street for fun. Learning how to control the ball in a tight space. Learning how to distribute it, hit a small target...the goal between two jumpers... or else it would end up under so and so's car, or in so and so's backyard...or rolling all the way down the hill.

I remember growing up in the early 1980's being chucked out of the house to play outside, and only coming in with the ball when it was so dark that you couldn't see your hand in front of your face.

Competitive saturday football was merely an extension of that. Now, its the 'be all' and 'end all'. I don't think we'll ever get a Ronaldo or Messi or a Bobby Charlton because todays british kids don't kick the ball around in the street every day after homework and then most of the weekend, thereby subconsciously building those skills.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

I can relate to the post which described how Hodgson built the replica 'backyard' for kids to just kick the ball round. From what I see, kids don't do that anymore. And I think that is part of the problem. What football there is, is regimented - like a chore. Almost like school. Its just not fun - its just something you do that keeps Dad happy. Kids just don't play in the street anymore. They're mollycoddled into staying safe at home because the world is just full of 'danger and perverts'.

Its rubbish! The world is no more dangerous now than it ever was. Its just that the media has made us paranoid.

Thats the difference between Britain and Brazil/Argentina/Spain/Uruguay. Those countries still have what we had back in the day - kids playing football on the street for fun. Learning how to control the ball in a tight space. Learning how to distribute it, hit a small target...the goal between two jumpers... or else it would end up under so and so's car, or in so and so's backyard...or rolling all the way down the hill.

I remember growing up in the early 1980's being chucked out of the house to play outside, and only coming in with the ball when it was so dark that you couldn't see your hand in front of your face.

Competitive saturday football was merely an extension of that. Now, its the 'be all' and 'end all'. I don't think we'll ever get a Ronaldo or Messi or a Bobby Charlton because todays british kids don't kick the ball around in the street every day after homework and then most of the weekend, thereby subconsciously building those skills.

Good post. Instead the kids are inside learning how to do it on the Playstation. I once rode a bus from London through Europe (France, Belgium, Luxembourg, France again, Switzerland, Italy, Slovenia) to Croatia for a music festival and I was almost shocked at the sheer number of kids I saw playing football outside. Literally all the time, every 5 minutes on the street or on grass. People who I know who have been travelling say that is all kids do in South America....often barefoot developing further their ball control. Like someone else pointed out the money spent on Wembley should have been put to developing youth football. A national stadium is good in some ways but in a country the size of England it is unfair on Northerners to have to travel down south.