[Archived] Brum Away

[den]

The reason Bowyer has had to bring in 19 players (as den so often points out!) is precisely because so many poor players were brought into the club. The fact we haven't been able to shift a large number of them speaks volumes as to how bad our recruitment policy has been over the past few years.

What a load of tripe that is DE.

The last thing the club needed was another 19 players bringing in. I keep mentioning it because it highlights the lack of any credible transfer planning. Most of those 19 players had to be wild cards - players who hadn't been scouted and who Bowyer knew nothing about. Virtually all of them were players not wanted by their clubs, and their clubs were happy to let them go. A handful of them have done OK, while the majority haven't. What we really needed and what we'll need next season is for the manager to deal in a much tighter market. He will have to be much more precise with his signings and that's one area where experience wins hands down.

[JAL]

After sending Goodwillie, Best and Campbell out on loan, he needed a third striker to play his 4-4-2. That was where Varney came in. He's hardworking, he plays his heart out - you can't deny that.

Of course, Bowyer could have chosen better, but I suspect those better strikers wouldn't agree to come in as a sub, or as third choice strikers. Varney, on the other hand, isn't just a striker, he can also play on the right wing, hence Bowyer picked him for the options he offered. The problem is that Varney isn't that good, which is probably why most people don't like him, but I see him playing his heart out every match when he comes on.

Best and Goodwillie would be better than Varney its just a pity Bowyer was weak in handling Leon Best as he could have been a useful player for the club.

[stanhillrover]

What a load of tripe that is DE.

The last thing the club needed was another 19 players bringing in. I keep mentioning it because it highlights the lack of any credible transfer planning. Most of those 19 players had to be wild cards - players who hadn't been scouted and who Bowyer knew nothing about. Virtually all of them were players not wanted by their clubs, and their clubs were happy to let them go. A handful of them have done OK, while the majority haven't. What we really needed and what we'll need next season is for the manager to deal in a much tighter market. He will have to be much more precise with his signings and that's one area where experience wins hands down.

Not sure I agree with you on this.

The club needed to bring in a lot of new players. Partly because we had to get rid of a lot off the wage bill and partly because many of those here weren't fit for purpose in the Championship or didn't fit into the manager's plans.

I'm not sure what you are basing your claim that the 'majority' of Bowyer's signings haven't done ok. In my opinion, Gestede, Evans, Cairney, Conway, Spurr, Kilgallon, Marshall, Keane have all been fantastic signings for the money paid and have makings of a very good side.

Then you have players like Chris Taylor, Todd Kane, Alan Judge, Luke Varney who whilst they haven't set the world alight I don't think can be classed as 'flops' or 'failures'. I think any of those players are ok bench players in the Championship and are the right characters to have around the club.

The only really poor signings have been Bryan Dabo (can send him back anyway), Yann Songo (bizarre transfer in the first place), Alex Marrow (cheap deal anyway).

Feeney came in on loan to boost numbers and I would expect to be sent back to Millwall at the end of the season.

When you've been working with a turnover of players as high as that at Rovers you aren't going to get every signing spot on. Some of them, particularly those on loan, aren't going to get game time or get the chance to make much of an impact. Those that the club have paid money for and have given long term contracts have been successful.

A summer of Bowyer being given the opportunity to sign more players along the lines of Cairney and Evans would be very welcome. I understand that Bowyer isn't everyone's cup of tea but I think the transfer market has been his most successful area this season and he deserves credit for the work he has done.

[ABBEY]

If Bowyer had learnt anything he wouldnt have hired or played Luke Varney but then did he hire him in the first place ?

smells like certain factions are still lurking if you ask me.

After sending Goodwillie, Best and Campbell out on loan, he needed a third striker to play his 4-4-2. That was where Varney came in. He's hardworking, he plays his heart out - you can't deny that.

Of course, Bowyer could have chosen better, but I suspect those better strikers wouldn't agree to come in as a sub, or as third choice strikers. Varney, on the other hand, isn't just a striker, he can also play on the right wing, hence Bowyer picked him for the options he offered. The problem is that Varney isn't that good, which is probably why most people don't like him, but I see him playing his heart out every match when he comes on.

How do you actually know all this.? are the games live or streamed?

not having a pop ,just asking. I watch Broncos games on game pass every time they play but dont go on Broncos boards with views against season ticket holders.

[Stuart]

A summer of Bowyer being given the opportunity to sign more players along the lines of Cairney and Evans would be very welcome. I understand that Bowyer isn't everyone's cup of tea but I think the transfer market has been his most successful area this season and he deserves credit for the work he has done.

I agree.

So make him chief scout.

[DE.]

Not sure I agree with you on this.

The club needed to bring in a lot of new players. Partly because we had to get rid of a lot off the wage bill and partly because many of those here weren't fit for purpose in the Championship or didn't fit into the manager's plans.

I'm not sure what you are basing your claim that the 'majority' of Bowyer's signings haven't done ok. In my opinion, Gestede, Evans, Cairney, Conway, Spurr, Kilgallon, Marshall, Keane have all been fantastic signings for the money paid and have makings of a very good side.

Then you have players like Chris Taylor, Todd Kane, Alan Judge, Luke Varney who whilst they haven't set the world alight I don't think can be classed as 'flops' or 'failures'. I think any of those players are ok bench players in the Championship and are the right characters to have around the club.

The only really poor signings have been Bryan Dabo (can send him back anyway), Yann Songo (bizarre transfer in the first place), Alex Marrow (cheap deal anyway).

Feeney came in on loan to boost numbers and I would expect to be sent back to Millwall at the end of the season.

When you've been working with a turnover of players as high as that at Rovers you aren't going to get every signing spot on. Some of them, particularly those on loan, aren't going to get game time or get the chance to make much of an impact. Those that the club have paid money for and have given long term contracts have been successful.

A summer of Bowyer being given the opportunity to sign more players along the lines of Cairney and Evans would be very welcome. I understand that Bowyer isn't everyone's cup of tea but I think the transfer market has been his most successful area this season and he deserves credit for the work he has done.

I was going to respond but this post does it perfectly well.

Also curious how you know Bowyer had no knowledge and hadn't scouted most of them, den? You think he spent the summer and back end of last season twiddling his thumbs unaware of how poorly our side was equipped for this division?

[AggyBlue]

So make him chief scout.

Isn't that what a manager is in effect

He goes to watch players highlighted by scouts then makes a decision.

[Black Burn]

How do you actually know all this.? are the games live or streamed?

not having a pop ,just asking. I watch Broncos games on game pass every time they play but dont go on Broncos boards with views against season ticket holders.

They are streamed live.

[Tom]

They are streamed live.

Surprised you can still get championship games most parts of the world don't seem able to any more apart from the odd one

Is it all teams or just select ones with Asian links?

[den]

Also curious how you know Bowyer had no knowledge and hadn't scouted most of them, den?

Because he's spent most of his career concentrating on, and taking the youth teams at weekends and evenings. As first team manager he would have been with the first team. Logistics mean he can't possibly have scouted all of those players. More likely a few phone calls around various clubs asking who might be available. Not that there's anything wrong with that as such. If you get 19 favours, some are going to work out. You can't go on doing that though, because you aren't always going to be lucky.

Then we're back to the argument that if all, or most of his signings are " fantastic", why haven't we been pushing for automatic promotion, rather than wishing for the playoffs? Either the signings weren't as great as some make out, or the manager wasn't. Which one?

We're not seriously arguing that a club maybe £70m+ in debt and mounting quickly, needed another 19 players, are we?

[ABBEY]

They are streamed live.

Every game?

[Steve Moss]

I have a customer who calls me that. He reckons I have a thick skin and charge a lot.

I thought he meant Rhino as in RINO. It's an American phrase meaning Republican In Name Only but in this case adapted to Rover In Name Only. It's considered a bit of a political insult, and is frequently used by conservatives saying "I'm going RINO hunting" when referring to a Republican incumbent they mean to challenge in the election.

I'm glad to discover it was meant only as a reference to the thickness of your respective skins.

[AllRoverAsia]

They are streamed live.

In Bkk I've seen about 8 live Rovers games all season - and that's a mixture of tv and the other way. What are you getting in Singapore that's not on here?

[Black Burn]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. No, not every game, but we were talking about Varney, so I was talking about the matches where I saw Varney play.

I didn't mean to mislead anybody here, sorry about that.

[DE.]

Because he's spent most of his career concentrating on, and taking the youth teams at weekends and evenings. As first team manager he would have been with the first team. Logistics mean he can't possibly have scouted all of those players. More likely a few phone calls around various clubs asking who might be available. Not that there's anything wrong with that as such. If you get 19 favours, some are going to work out. You can't go on doing that though, because you aren't always going to be lucky.

Then we're back to the argument that if all, or most of his signings are " fantastic", why haven't we been pushing for automatic promotion, rather than wishing for the playoffs? Either the signings weren't as great as some make out, or the manager wasn't. Which one?

We're not seriously arguing that a club maybe £70m+ in debt and mounting quickly, needed another 19 players, are we?

It's not Championship Manager den, you don't just buy a player, slot him into the team and it works straight away. It takes time for players to bed in and we've been adding to the squad all season. Our inconsistencies are as much down to injuries and continual additions to the team as Bowyer's management. Besides of which I wouldn't say too many players fall under the "fantastic" bracket, but they're certainly an improvement on the likes of Murphy, Orr, Etuhu, Formica, etc.

The debt is irrelevant to the amount of players we needed to compete in the division based on the squad we had this summer. However, the 19 players that have come in are probably combined on significantly less wages than Pedersen (£35k p/w*), Murphy (£30k p/w*), and Givet (£25k p/w*) alone. Lest we forget we also sold Olsson for £2.5M and I imagine he was on a significant wage packet himself. We've also let Formica, Dann and Rochina go - all players who were again going to be on wages far too high for the quality they brought to the team. Assumedly part or all of the wages of Judge, Marrow, Orr, Best, Goodwillie and DJ Campbell are also being picked up by the clubs they are loaned out to. It's easy to go around repeating "19 players" but when you analyse where those players currently are and who they've been brought in to replace it really isn't as bad as you may otherwise try to make out.

*Estimates on my part but fairly close to the truth I'd imagine.

[AllRoverAsia]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. No, not every game, but we were talking about Varney, so I was talking about the matches where I saw Varney play.

I didn't mean to mislead anybody here, sorry about that.

Thanks for clearing that up - I thought I was missing out.

[den]

It's not Championship Manager den, you don't just buy a player, slot him into the team and it works straight away. It takes time for players to bed in and we've been adding to the squad all season. Our inconsistencies are as much down to injuries and continual additions to the team as Bowyer's management. Besides of which I wouldn't say too many players fall under the "fantastic" bracket, but they're certainly an improvement on the likes of Murphy, Orr, Etuhu, Formica, etc.

The debt is irrelevant to the amount of players we needed to compete in the division based on the squad we had this summer. However, the 19 players that have come in are probably combined on significantly less wages than Pedersen (£35k p/w*), Murphy (£30k p/w*), and Givet (£25k p/w*) alone. Lest we forget we also sold Olsson for £2.5M and I imagine he was on a significant wage packet himself. We've also let Formica, Dann and Rochina go - all players who were again going to be on wages far too high for the quality they brought to the team. Assumedly part or all of the wages of Judge, Marrow, Orr, Best, Goodwillie and DJ Campbell are also being picked up by the clubs they are loaned out to. It's easy to go around repeating "19 players" but when you analyse where those players currently are and who they've been brought in to replace it really isn't as bad as you may otherwise try to make out.

*Estimates on my part but fairly close to the truth I'd imagine.

19 players DE. You're defending that?

If we're playing guess the wage bills, (which is a silly game, but I'll try) then 19 players at the league average of £8000 equals a "miserly" £152000 p/w. Multiply that by the length of contract and where are we? Let's say the average contract for these 19 players is two years. That adds up to £15.8m. We are a championship club DE and are in massive debt. Bowyer has only lost one player that he would have wanted to keep - and he's been allowed to add that financial burden to the wage bill. I don't think that's at all defendable without the end product being promotion.

We're in big trouble financially and Bowyer really needed more quality and less quantity. There's no way he needed to bring 19 players in to cover injuries either, that's just another silly statement. Sorry, but it is.

[Majiball]

We had an annual income of 27M by last accounts, which will drop to 19m next season. I wish you hadn't posted that Den!!!

[Proudtobeblue&white]

I wonder what our annual income is?

Think of a number, halve it, then take off a lot more = not a lot!

[Majiball]

lol

[thenodrog]

Best and Goodwillie would be better than Varney its just a pity Bowyer was weak in handling Leon Best as he could have been a useful player for the club.

I'd go along with Best but Goodwillie?!? He's a park footballer.

I still believe Best wasn't able to accept Jordan Rhodes as automatic choice when he felt he'd played well and JR had one of his anonymous matches. It must have been fairly soul destroying for Best and definitely poor psychology to show such favouritism within a squad.

[DE.]

19 players DE. You're defending that?

If we're playing guess the wage bills, (which is a silly game, but I'll try) then 19 players at the league average of £8000 equals a "miserly" £152000 p/w. Multiply that by the length of contract and where are we? Let's say the average contract for these 19 players is two years. That adds up to £15.8m. We are a championship club DE and are in massive debt. Bowyer has only lost one player that he would have wanted to keep - and he's been allowed to add that financial burden to the wage bill. I don't think that's at all defendable without the end product being promotion.

We're in big trouble financially and Bowyer really needed more quality and less quantity. There's no way he needed to bring 19 players in to cover injuries either, that's just another silly statement. Sorry, but it is.

You do know we've released/loaned out 33 players, though?

Dilo, Olsson, Osawe, Henrique, MGP, Ribeiro, Nunes, Dann, Edwards, Orr, O'Connell, Morris, Songo'o, O'Connor, Judge, O'Sullivan, Rosado, Marrow, Forrester, Rochina, Campbell, Goodwillie, Slew, Best, Cotton, Payne, Usai, Daly, Edinho Jr, Urwin, Fernandez, Formica & Givet have all either left the club or gone out on loan which would mean wages in most cases are partially or completely covered.

Meanwhile we've brought in Tumwa, Raya, Campbell*, Kilgallon, Marrow*, Spurr, Evans, Songo'o*, Marshall, Mahoney, Gestede, Conway, Kane, Keane, Feeney, Dabo, Cairney, Varney.

* Loaned back out.

Puts a bit of a different perspective on it when you see the incomings and outgoings together, don't you think? Of those 19 (well, I could only find 18, so maybe I'm missing somebody?) I'd say 8 of them have been very astute purchases (Kilgallon, Spurr, Evans, Marshall, Gestede, Conway, Keane, Cairney), 3 are youngsters who must be on a pittance (Tumwa, Raya, Mahoney), 1 wasn't even GB's signing (Campbell) and has been loaned back out accordingly, and the remaining 6 (Marrow, Songo'o, Kane, Feeney, Dabo, Varney) squad fillers who haven't really done it for us but are either on loan (3 of them) or on a very small wage/loaned back out.

From my perspective the squad has been strengthened this year by the majority of GB's purchases and we've got rid of a fair amount of deadwood over the course of the season which was desperately necessary. The summer shouldn't see anywhere near as much activity incoming as we've done some really good business this season to secure a decent squad going forward.

[den]

It doesn't matter whether fifty players have gone out though. We still have a huge squad, are making huge losses - and can only play eleven of his 19 signings in any one game. It wasn't what we needed.

We won't agree DE. Better agree to differ.

[DE.]

Well, it would matter if 50 players had gone out as we'd have hardly anyone left! You need a big squad for this league, and a fair few of Bowyer's signings came in around January and a couple in March so we haven't even had them the entire season.

The picture looks very different when you break it down. The squad is still technically 14/15 players lighter even with the fabled 19 (or 18, as I couldn't find 19) taken into account. Wage bill should be reduced as the players currently in will be nowhere close to the wages of the likes of Murphy, Formica, Givet, Olsson, etc. People talk about Bowyer having significant resouces but the evidence I've provided there suggests he's not only had close to a £0 transfer budget but reduced the wage bill as well. Not bad imo.

[somersetrover]

I'd go along with Best but Goodwillie?!? He's a park footballer.

Goodwillie has scored 3 goals in 10 games for a struggling Blackpool whereas Varney has scored 2 in 23 league games for Rovers and Leeds this season two stronger teams than Blackpool. I'd say Goodwillie is a better option for a goal of the bench than Varney although that probably says more about Varney's ability than Goodwillie's.