Academy & U21s

[DutchRover]

I think it is the reality for most academy guys at all clubs, very rarely you get an Adam Wharton type who is too good to ignore, but more often the first team has holes (from injury or sales) and the manager chooses a guy who has impressed him in training, not u21s. Whether they sink or swim is up to the player and their ability. 

Not saying manager won't have been told by academy coaches or watched games himself, but there is a great degree of personal preference and luck involved.

[arbitro]

15 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Modern footballer for me. He can run a bit, tackle a bit, head the ball a bit, pass the ball 20 yards. Has he got the “ X” factor ? Can he make play ? Not that I can see.

I really don't understand this obsession with pace in modern football. Of course it's an asset but for me pace has to be aligned with other things like good decision making or a final pass. See Kargbo for evidence of this.

Everton had a lad playing last night and on his first run my thoughts were he's exceptionally quick. However he kept running down blind alleys and didn't look like he could pass water. He got the hook after offering no threat.

[rigger]

2 minutes ago, arbitro said:

I really don't understand this obsession with pace in modern football. Of course it's an asset but for me pace has to be aligned with other things like good decision making or a final pass. See Kargbo for evidence of this.

Everton had a lad playing last night and on his first run my thoughts were he's exceptionally quick. However he kept running down blind alleys and didn't look like he could pass water. He got the hook after offering no threat.

Or you could look at it. If you have the basic skills to be playing at pro level, football skills can be practiced, speed can't.  

[arbitro]

1 minute ago, rigger said:

Or you could look at it. If you have the basic skills to be playing at pro level, football skills can be practiced, speed can't.  

I have a theory that lots of really quick players have no real football brain.

And you can't coach natural footballing intelligence.

[47er]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

I have a theory that lots of really quick players have no real football brain.

And you can't coach natural footballing intelligence.

There's also the matter of "spatial awareness"---some players instinctively  know the position of everyone else around them, they can receive the ball and put it through the eye of a needle without having to look up.

Adam Wharton' brain apparently comes out tops in this particular ability. He is super-intelligent.

Edited 5 hours ago by 47er

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

4 minutes ago, 47er said:

There's also the matter of "spatial awareness"---some players instinctively  know the position everyone else around them, they can receive the ball and put it through the eye of a needle without having to look up.

Adam Wharton' brain apparently comes out tops in this particular ability. He is super-intelligent.

All the tests they ran on Pele as a young player showed the same thing. He almost had eyes in the back of his head.
You can have real “ football intelligence “ without being anywhere near ready to go to Cambridge or Oxford. Wayne Rooney had it at 17. He just didn’t have much non football intelligence.

Back in the day I remember listening to Malcolm Allison talking about this. He illustrated the point with a bit of play regarding George Cohen and Bobby Charlton. Charlton had the ball  and Cohen was making an overlapping run. Instead of passing the ball more or less into Cohen’s run Charlton passed it yards further forward, almost to the byline. This compelled Cohen to cross the ball as soon as he got to it. Allison explained -  “ That’s Charlton pulling the strings, he’s knows Cohen is a bit of a ditherer on the ball, so he’s passed the ball there to give George only one option - cross the ball “.

[arbitro]

I think it was Bobby Moore who answered 'the first two yards are in your head' when he was quizzed about his apparent lack of pace.

[bluebruce]

2 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

You can have real “ football intelligence “ without being anywhere near ready to go to Cambridge or Oxford. Wayne Rooney had it at 17. He just didn’t have much non football intelligence.

Although his managerial stints suggest he doesn't have overall football intelligence! He certainly had it on the pitch though pretty much from the off. I remember they did a documentary episode about it on tv, and when they analysed what he could do and how fast his brain could process it, he was operating at a genius level in this regard. Then he'd open his mouth and it was like listening to a barely sentient scouse potato.

One player who impresses me more and more in this regard as I keep seeing clips is Messi. Must be one of the most intelligent, fast-thinking footballers of all time easily. Always seems to know what a defender is going to do so he can jink away from them, usually without any fancy tricks just perfectly timed change of speed and direction (his insane agility etc helps of course). But his reading of the overall game...yesterday I saw a clip of him playing for Miami, and I don't care what level the league is - a pass was played into him with his back to goal, and without looking he flicked it on, needle-like pass through two defenders, perfectly onto the run of Suarez, whose direction of travel had changed, to slot in past the keeper. I've no idea how he processed where Suarez was going to be with the information he had, it was pure genius.

[RoverCanada]

It's an interesting debate. A buddy played in Southampton's Academy with Oxlade-Chamberlain. He told me AOC didn't really stand out in everyday drills, but there was a running test where everyone else was clocking ~12s while AOC clocked ~10s, and it was clear that he was 'the annointed one'. Perhaps an outlier anecdote (AOC's had a mixed career, but hardly a failure. And paid off nicely for the Academy), but you'd generally expect measureable physical talent is the first thing that will catch coaches' eye. Does that mean less physically gifted prospects are neglected, and perhaps where a 'lesser' Cat 1 Academy like us can look to poach castoffs? JRC from Man Utd a (mixed) example that comes to mind...

---

Noticed O'Grady-Macken only coming off the bench last night. Has been absent from the last two preseason camps. Maybe injury-related? Am I misremembering that he was one that allegedly caught JDT's eye? Perhaps has fallen out of favour under Ismael despite an FA Cup sub app + 7 bench apps under Eustace.

Had me wondering about which youth players were brought along to recent camps as an indicator of 'catching the manager's eye'. Ignoring obvious ones like Leonard, Markanday, Vale, etc. Some of which will reflect incomplete squads at the time...

2023 Austria under JDT (https://www.rovers.co.uk/news/2023/july/09/austria-bound/)

Barnes - Well-documented injury issues, which is a shame. Signed with Altrincham in NL this year, but left on their bench so far.

Davies - Not sure why he was brought along as a fresh 16-year-old at the time (joined from Man U at 13). Signed a pro deal in 2024, but has barely played at PL2 since. Turns 19 in Oct.

Eastham - Finally released this summer. Signed with Ashton in NPL.

Edmondson - I've been curious about him after scoring as a sub during that Cup stomping of Harrogate back in 23-24. Made a couple benches last year and apparently did well on a NPL loan with Macclesfield, but wasn't part of the last two camps. Started for the u21s last night. Turns 21 in Nov.

Gamble - Released this summer after a mixed loan with AFC Fylde. I recall he was on our bench a bunch in 22-23 or 23-24, likely more reflecting a lack of squad depth. Currently unttached.

Gilsenan - Released. Now with Grimsby. Hasn't made their squad yet.

O'Grady-Macken - see above.

Weston - Released last year after a brief NL Kidderminster loan. Had spells with Barrow and Rochdale last year. Now at NLN Curzon Ashton.

2024 Austria under Eustace (https://www.rovers.co.uk/news/2024/july/14/austria-bound/)

Barrett - An odd one... His age prevented him from even being 3rd string when we hit the roster cap last year. Had a NPL loan with Workington. Wasn't included in this year's preseason camp (in favour of Goddard?) despite signing a new deal until 2027 (+ option).

Duru - Showed some promise with a couple appearances + apparently doing ok during his L2 loan with Barrow before injury. Strange he was omitted from this year's camp, but may be injury-related. Let's see about the rumoured MLS loan.

Gamble - See above.

Gent - Sold to Barnsley, where he had 30 apps last year. Let's see how he develops, but probably fine that we (mildly) cashed-in after impressing during his SPL loan.

Saadi - Ha, surprised he was included. Released after last year's Cypriot 1st Division loan. Unattached at the moment.

Tyjon - Showing some promise, but we'll see...

Wood - Didn't seem to do much across Scottish League One (Annan), NLN (Radcliffe), and NPL (Warrington) loans last year, after scoring a decent amount in PL2/UPL. Was a sub last night. Just turned 21. Somewhat surprised we took up his option this year. Maybe simply looking to find him a landing spot (there is an empathetic case for not just casting off youth players).

2025 Spain under Ismael (https://www.rovers.co.uk/news/2025/july/20/spain-squad-confirmed/)

Atcheson, Batty (I presume injuries prevented him from joining previous outings), Goddard, Litherland, Michalski, Montgomery, Mullarkey-Matthews, Pratt, Tyjon.

Atcheson and Litherland getting some mild hype. Getting Gamble vibes from Pratt as an ageing out CB (he turns 23 in Sep), but no actual insight. Gestede and/or Ismael seem to like Montgomery and Mullarkey-Matthews.

No idea about Goddard, who doesn't get the same hype as Michalski, but he did sign a new deal until 2027 (+option). Turns 22 in March. His litany of non-league loans - NPL loans with Lancaster (2 apps), Bamber Bridge (37 apps), and Marine (26 apps), LOI with Dundalk (6 apps), and NL with Ebbsfleet (2 apps) - look odd, but perhaps a sign of actively trying to develop him. I know non-league loans get scoffed at, but I've wondered if they're of some use for longer-term GK development.

Edited 11 minutes ago by RoverCanada

[rigger]

3 hours ago, arbitro said:

I have a theory that lots of really quick players have no real football brain.

And you can't coach natural footballing intelligence.

If they haven't got a football brain, they shouldn't be pro footballers.

[arbitro]

10 minutes ago, rigger said:

If they haven't got a football brain, they shouldn't be pro footballers.

History dispels your opinion.

[rigger]

6 minutes ago, arbitro said:

History dispels your opinion.

In your opinion.

[bluebruce]

I just remembered how JDT used to attend almost all the U21 games to keep an eye on them all. Anybody know if Val attends any games?