[Archived] Is It Time To Protest Against Venkys?

[T J Hooker]

I think its more important that we get a good capable board in place before we open the cheque book for transfers, pl just needs to be more patient and focus on getting more out of the current squad.

[BlueMonday]

What exactly are Venkys doing wrong at this present time?

If the answer is not throwing their own money at the club then they're actually not doing anything wrong, and very few owners in football would do any different. Very, very few would do any different at a club like Rovers, where it is impossible to grow the fanbase and therefore extremely unlikely to ever see a return on the investment. Certainly the risk outweighs the reward.

And what's the alternative?

As I've said in a previous post, it took the Walker Trust about 5 years to find a buyer for a PL club with an annual revenue of around £50m. How long is it going to take Venkys to find a buyer for a Championship club with an annual revenue of £5m? Simple answer is they won't, nobody wants to buy Rovers.

So in my opinion this is all rather pointless. The goalposts have changed since the original protests when they took over. We had something important we could preserve then, our invaluable PL status that was responsible for about 90% of our revenue (not that the Allardyce-haters ever seemed to grasp that). Now the horse has bolted and there's nothing at all to be gained from protesting against Venkys. The only halfway valid reason I can think of is that the new owner we'll never get might revert the club management structure back to a more traditional set up (decisions made by chairman, board of directors etc). But does that really matter? Whoever is doing that job at the moment hired Lambert, an absolute coup with his track record and the current state of the club.

Its the supporters fault.

The sooner that we stop being aspirational and caring what happens, the better.

[den]

Its the supporters fault.

The sooner that we stop being aspirational and caring what happens, the better.

No ones said its the supporters fault. What everyone is getting into a paddy about, is this view that the owners must cover another seasons debt from their own money, then throw in another few million as well. Who are we to demand that they do that?

[tomphil]

It's quite simple, turn up and give great support to PL at the Hudds game then boycott the Bristol City game as a show of defiance towards the charade.

[BlueMonday]

No ones said its the supporters fault. What everyone is getting into a paddy about, is this view that the owners must cover another seasons debt from their own money, then throw in another few million as well. Who are we to demand that they do that?

So just to summarise:

*Its not Venkys fault. Why should they pour more money in, when they are already funding the day to day running of the Club

*Further financing of transfers is pointless due to crippling debt.

*Selling the Club is pointless, due to crippling debt.

*Fans protesting is pointless.

*Lambert needs to stop whining to the media and get on with it.

And "who are we to demand that". We'll be the ones left to give a sh!t when these charlatans have shipped out.

But yeah, lets fiddle while Rome burns.

[Paul]

I think most likely the protests will start once the season ticket forms hit the door mats Paul. Thousands are already onboard, many more will join in if Lambert walks.

Not me

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

So just to summarise:

*Its not Venkys fault. Why should they pour more money in, when they are already funding the day to day running of the Club

*Further financing of transfers is pointless due to crippling debt.

*Selling the Club is pointless, due to crippling debt.

*Fans protesting is pointless.

*Lambert needs to stop whining to the media and get on with it.

And "who are we to demand that". We'll be the ones left to give a sh!t when these charlatans have shipped out.

But yeah, lets fiddle while Rome burns.

Its not Venkys fault for what and how is Rome burning exactly? This is basically the crux of the matter, a sizeable proportion of our support seem to think there is a terrible injustice going on because we're 16th in the Championship.

If you ordered every team in the 4 league divisions into their average attendance from highest to lowest, you'd have a good idea of where those teams should be. Average attendance is a decent indication of fanbase size, and fanbase size determines all revenue streams beyond TV money and owner handouts. And money basically determines success.

Sure you can overcome this ordering in the short-term by having particularly talented people at the club (Williams, Hughes, Allardyce, hopefully Lambert). And you can overcome in mid-term by getting on the premier league TV money gravy train (which is why we should have always prioritised premier league survival above all else, including the moronic hoofball moaning and all that).

But the point is you shouldn't expect to overcome it, and that's what many of our fans seem to consistently do. Expect us to overachieve for our financial clout, and then kick off when we don't. The very definition of overachieve means its something out of the ordinary and shouldn't be expected by anyone being reasonable. Which other clubs in the Championship with tiny attendances and huge debts have their owners handing out big transfer budgets to their managers? And that's not even mentioning our constant proximity to FFP punishment.

People call Leeds fans entitled. Bloody hell they're not half as entitled as us, as a fanbase they generate probably 3 times what we do and their fans seem to expect about the same.

[Paul]

So just to summarise:

*Its not Venkys fault. Why should they pour more money in, when they are already funding the day to day running of the Club

*Further financing of transfers is pointless due to crippling debt.

*Selling the Club is pointless, due to crippling debt.

*Fans protesting is pointless.

*Lambert needs to stop whining to the media and get on with it.

And "who are we to demand that". We'll be the ones left to give a sh!t when these charlatans have shipped out.

But yeah, lets fiddle while Rome burns.

Then get out there and organise something. Stop talking and start walking. Just make sure you target 100% at the right target.

No one suggests this is the fans' fault but some are more realistic than others. Our only hope is to get promotion and Lambert is our best, only, bet. If he walks for whatever reason we are done for.

It's just possible Venky's will roll the dice in the summer. My inclination is to wait and see.

[Amo]

No ones said its the supporters fault. What everyone is getting into a paddy about, is this view that the owners must cover another seasons debt from their own money, then throw in another few million as well. Who are we to demand that they do that?

What's the alternative, Den?

The current debt is unserviceable, and I'm sure you'll agree that the only way to clear it is to get back on the Premier League gravy train.

For the record, I don't believe we need to throw £10-15m at it in the summer. Splurging vast amounts of money (at this level) is no guarantee of success, just look at Derby, and I can certainly see why the owners might be feeling stung after the last time they tried to buy their way out of the division. When Lambert first arrived, we kept hearing about all the contacts he's made during his time out. Well then, with a modest budget I would expect him to call in a few favours and use the freebie/loan market effectively.

It's the deafening silence and apparent lack of any viable strategy that's the problem. If they're not going to give Lambert a 'war chest' in the summer, let the guy know. And if they haven't made their minds up either way, let the guy know. Keeping him and the rest of the staff in the dark at this time isn't doing anyone any favours.

[BlueMonday]

Its not Venkys fault for what and how is Rome burning exactly? This is basically the crux of the matter, a sizeable proportion of our support seem to think there is a terrible injustice going on because we're 16th in the Championship.

If you ordered every team in the 4 league divisions into their average attendance from highest to lowest, you'd have a good idea of where those teams should be. Average attendance is a decent indication of fanbase size, and fanbase size determines all revenue streams beyond TV money and owner handouts. And money basically determines success.

Sure you can overcome this ordering in the short-term by having particularly talented people at the club (Williams, Hughes, Allardyce, hopefully Lambert). And you can overcome in mid-term by getting on the premier league TV money gravy train (which is why we should have always prioritised premier league survival above all else, including the moronic hoofball moaning and all that).

But the point is you shouldn't expect to overcome it, and that's what many of our fans seem to consistently do. Expect us to overachieve for our financial clout, and then kick off when we don't. The very definition of overachieve means its something out of the ordinary and shouldn't be expected by anyone being reasonable. Which other clubs in the Championship with tiny attendances and huge debts have their owners handing out big transfer budgets to their managers? And that's not even mentioning our constant proximity to FFP punishment.

People call Leeds fans entitled. Bloody hell they're not half as entitled as us, as a fanbase they generate probably 3 times what we do and their fans seem to expect about the same.

There is.

Clueless F**ktard owners with dubious motives have systematically ruined Rovers through mismanagement. Now you might think thats OK and we should just go with the flow but I don't.

I expect them to sort THEIR mess out, or feck off.

[den]

So just to summarise:

*Its not Venkys fault. Why should they pour more money in, when they are already funding the day to day running of the Club

*Further financing of transfers is pointless due to crippling debt.

*Selling the Club is pointless, due to crippling debt.

*Fans protesting is pointless.

*Lambert needs to stop whining to the media and get on with it.

And "who are we to demand that". We'll be the ones left to give a sh!t when these charlatans have shipped out.

But yeah, lets fiddle while Rome burns.

If we're discussing what the fans would be justified in protesting about, then top of the list is the management structure at the club. I think the fans are more than justified to continually press this point.

As we stand, if a responsible CEO was appointed, there's no way he would recommend that the club blows another ten or fifteen million on a transfer budget - on top of an ongoing multi million pound loss. If the owners were willing to put that money forward, then great, we'd all take that. Let's hope they do. Maybe they will. But, my point is that no protest that demands they put even more of their own money into the club on top of the 100m+ that they already have done, would carry too much credibility.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

There is.

Clueless F**ktard owners with dubious motives have systematically ruined Rovers through mismanagement. Now you might think thats OK and we should just go with the flow but I don't.

I expect them to sort THEIR mess out, or feck off.

So are you saying 2002-10 Rovers was normal and current Rovers is terrible? Because (for the financial reasons in my last post), I'd argue 2002-10 Rovers was bloody brilliant, a sustained period of overachievement brought about by superb budget management from Williams, and the appointment of a succession of very good managers. And current Rovers is around average given the size of our fanbase.

Of course there's still someone at fault for the transition from one situation to the other, and that is undoubtedly Venkys in sacking Allardyce and appointing Kean. And I'd argue Jerome Anderson made that decision for them, not to mention a sizeable proportion of our fanbase ludicrously approved of the sacking Allardyce part.

But its not really systematic mismanagement, there have been a string of errors but the management change is the only decision that mattered, that management change caused relegation, and not being in the PL stripped us of 90% of our money. But that's got nothing to do with the decisions made in the past 12 months, which have all been decisions any owners would have made. Its getting to the point in my opinion where Venkys are being blamed for unrealistic fan demands, such as a big transfer budget and guaranteed play-offs. Maybe you think Venkys owe us that, which might be right. But I can guarantee no other owners will give it us, so what's the point in kicking off at Venkys because they won't?

[den]

What's the alternative, Den?

The current debt is unserviceable, and I'm sure you'll agree that the only way to clear it is to get back on the Premier League gravy train.

For the record, I don't believe we need to throw £10-15m at it in the summer. Splurging vast amounts of money (at this level) is no guarantee of success, just look at Derby, and I can certainly see why the owners might be feeling stung after the last time they tried to buy their way out of the division. When Lambert first arrived, we kept hearing about all the contacts he's made during his time out. Well then, with a modest budget I would expect him to call in a few favours and use the freebie/loan market effectively.

It's the deafening silence and apparent lack of any viable strategy that's the problem. If they're not going to give Lambert a 'war chest' in the summer, let the guy know. And if they haven't made their minds up either way, let the guy know. Keeping him and the rest of the staff in the dark at this time isn't doing anyone any favours.

I agree with all of that Amo. I'm not saying the owners shouldn't hand Lambert transfer money, I hope they do and believe there'll be something there, - it's just the idea that if they don't give him a shed load of what's basically their own money, that there should be massive protests. We aren't in a position to demand anyone puts their own money into a football club, but the one thing those supporters can do if they're not happy is simple - stop going. That's the biggest protest any fan can make.

Let's be honest here. This talk of protests on here is nothing but hot air. Like Paul says, fine, but rather than going on on this site about, just get on with it. Organise something or start something on the ground next home game.

[mhead]

Ummm. I thought this MessageBoard was the place to start knocking a few ideas about. And if that leads to Action that Supporters can take together then that's great.

BUT agreeing the Action is very very difficult and we all have a perspective:

-certainly its Venkys money and they can do what they want(BUT Football is a gravity flow from Rich people's wallets)

-the Structure at Ewood is Arabic (BUT Man City do not have the same problem)

-the Communication,even with Myers, was spasmodic at best and clearly totally sub-standard for the People's game

-the fall from grace(post-2009) has been totally upsetting and largely avoidable

-the enjoyment the Venky's get from their toy is negligible, so WHY are they continuing

and finally, we plus (hopefully) one or more rich,professional Supporters will have to partly or wholly have to pick up the whole messed up operation.

The Owners have essentially(plus the Walker Trust) thrown away Uncle Jack's legacy....just writing that is heartbreaking.

In the 'Snakes and Ladders' of Football we have gone down a BIG snake that was totally avoidable.

Somewhere in all that is a Constructive Protest target!!

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I agree with all of that Amo. I'm not saying the owners shouldn't hand Lambert transfer money, I hope they do and believe there'll be something there, - it's just the idea that if they don't give him a shed load of what's basically their own money, that there should be massive protests. We aren't in a position to demand anyone puts their own money into a football club, but the one thing those supporters can do if they're not happy is simple - stop going. That's the biggest protest any fan can make.

Let's be honest here. This talk of protests on here is nothing but hot air. Like Paul says, fine, but rather than going on on this site about, just get on with it. Organise something or start something on the ground next home game.

Pretty much agree with that highlighted bit Den but then the rest of your post seems at odds with it. Why protest at all if we're not suffering any particular injustice? Lambert not being informed of what's going on by Venkys is frustrating and Venkys not giving Lambert some of their money to spend in the summer would be disappointing, but neither of those scenarios strikes me as a heinous crime that we're justified in boycotting games or rushing the pitch for.

I'd say 90% of owners of the 92 league clubs don't spend significant amounts of their own money on their club. Should there be 80 pitch invasions and walk-outs every week?

Venkys not giving Lambert money to spend in the summer would be a normal decision, them giving him some would be brilliant. We don't even know which it is yet so why not be hopeful if uncertain as a fanbase? The current state of angry and impatient suggests we're being wronged in some way, and as I said if we can put aside the past and focus on events in the last season or 2, we simply haven't been wronged.

[47er]

No ones said its the supporters fault. What everyone is getting into a paddy about, is this view that the owners must cover another seasons debt from their own money, then throw in another few million as well. Who are we to demand that they do that?

We are the supporters who were promised much and delivered worse than nothing.

There is no legal imperative for Venkys to do anything, that's true but there is a moral responsibility to put right what you've done wrong.

That's an old-fashioned stance but its what I try to practise.

In any case it makes the only economic sense around for them to spend and get us back up. Its the only way they could possibly get some/most of their money back. Win-Win.

I don't believe they will do the right thing by the way. No sense and no honour.

[tomphil]

But if they've brought him in under the impression he will be backed and encouraged him to do the dirty work i.e get Rhodes through the door and get the money then surely that is enough cause for concern.

Most aren't stamping their feet for this stupid figure of 15/20 mill banded about but there is no excuse not for some sort of budget. The likes of me fear a negative one again which will only point one way and again that's certainly a cause for concern.

All this talk of natural levels if fair enough but the end game is we'll end up way below that and struggle to ever get it back.

[donnermeat]

The structure at Ewood is Arabic mhead? Apologies if that is a joke that I'm not getting.

[den]

Just need someone to tell me how the protests will work and what are we protesting about? Are we gonna stand up and chant Venkys out, we want a CEO or what? Just seems ridiculous to me AT THE MOMENT.

[BlueMonday]

Then get out there and organise something. Stop talking and start walking. Just make sure you target 100% at the right target.

No one suggests this is the fans' fault but some are more realistic than others. Our only hope is to get promotion and Lambert is our best, only, bet. If he walks for whatever reason we are done for.

It's just possible Venky's will roll the dice in the summer. My inclination is to wait and see.

I'm not arrogant enough to think I've got the influence or organisational skills to 'organise something' and Living in Scotland doesn't help. What is required is a collective approach.

You are in the wait and see camp, fair enough. What happens in the summer if Venkys don't deliver and Lambert walks. More wait and see? Back the next manger and hope Venkys back them.

At some point we are going to have to demand real change to halt the decline of BRFC

But I firmly believe Venkys need holding to account

[JHRover]

Talk of natural levels is all well and good but every year that ticks by sees fanbases and club size become less and less relevant. The most important things are having wealthy owners with the ability and willingness to invest in the club, putting an effective structure in place at the club to operate successfully, and appointing the right manager.

Having a few more thousand supporters turning up is ultimately chicken feed in todays world. If we filled Ewood to the rafters every week it wouldn't make up the shortfall of clubs with parachute money or owners pumping millions in.

Its not about feeling entitled to heavy investment, but there's not much point talking about 'natural levels' when Bournemouth are staying in the Premier League with gates of 10,000 and an owner who has put millions in.

Its irrelevant these days. Being a 'big club' hasn't helped Leeds or Sheffield Wednesday these last few years. Its all about the owners. If they are going to spend we've as much chance as anyone. If they aren't then we're going to struggle. Selling 8000 season tickets or 15000 season tickets won't make any serious difference.

[Stuart]

Protests? I'm with den. There needs to be a distinct purpose.

There will also need to be an awakening from the apathetic slumber of many.

If somebody stood up in the BBE at the next home match and said, "Right everyone, it's last chance saloon, if Lambert walks that'll be that. So we're all going to stand up and sing 'Paul Lambert's able and White Army' ALL match to show our support - who's with me?"

Do you know what the response would be...?

"Shut up and sit down, we can't see."

[Gav]

Not me

I'll never criticise anyone for going to Ewood, regardless of the circumstances.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Personally think it would get people joining in, then the mentally challenged amongst our support would speed the song up, precipitating its collapse 20 seconds later. The long chants need a drummer, and whenever we have one people moan.

[Athlete]

But if they've brought him in under the impression he will be backed and encouraged him to do the dirty work i.e get Rhodes through the door and get the money then surely that is enough cause for concern.

Most aren't stamping their feet for this stupid figure of 15/20 mill banded about but there is no excuse not for some sort of budget. The likes of me fear a negative one again which will only point one way and again that's certainly a cause for concern.

All this talk of natural levels if fair enough but the end game is we'll end up way below that and struggle to ever get it back.

You could be right on the 1St paragraph but I doubt we'll ever know or just maybe PL is playing the media game to his own advantage and we all know if Celtic come calling anytime no matter if he's given funding he's a goner.

The fact is until we get a proper board yes a board with authority no waiting on expenditure or expenses to be signed off nothing will change no matter who is the manager under these clowns unless by some fluke we go up with rag tag squad but the chance of that happening is a none to none chance.

How do we protest against Venky's as at Ewood it makes not a jot of difference apart from the voting with your feet which is already happening