[Archived] THE BATTLE FOR PROMOTION....WON.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, DE. said:

If you look back throughout the years traditionally the gap between 3rd - 4th/5th/6th has been a lot smaller than it is this year. You could argue that the other teams don't really deserve a playoff and that third should just go up automatically with a gap this large, but that would upset Sky. 

To compare the last three seasons points totals at the end:

16/17 season:

3rd 82
4th 82
5th 79
6th 73

15/16 season:

3rd 84
4th 81
5th 80
6th 74

14/15 season

3rd 89
4th 79
5th 71
6th 69

As it stands 17/18 season:

3rd 80
4th 66
5th 61
6th 61

3rd place being Wigan, who have 2 games in hand on 4th & 5th and one game in hand on 6th. 

For what it's worth in 14/15 Preston came 3rd with 89 points but did promoted via the playoffs. We could be looking at 3rd place this year being on well over 90 points, maybe as much as 20 points ahead of 4th but still have to contest a playoff. You can't say that's fair, I do wonder whether there should have been a rule implemented stating that if the gap between 3rd & 4th is greater than 15 points then 3rd goes up automatically. You can't say any of the teams below have really earned a playoff spot being so far behind over the course of the season. But, dat playoff drama I guess.

 

Very true. Imagine losing the play off to the team in 6th who may be ,what, 30 points worse off? Definitely unfair 

[JBiz]

1 minute ago, renrag said:

I was as delighted and thrilled as anyone at Wembley in 1992, but I believe the play offs are a farce full stop. They were only introduced about 5 years earlier to reduce the number of teams in the old 1st division and involved the bottom two of the 1st division against 3rd and 4th from the 2nd. The powers that be saw the financial benefits and introduced it throughout the league 

The whole principle of a league is to test every team against the others home and away and that should be the end of it. The play offs are just a money making racket.

To be fair though, the playoffs make it more interesting for everyone - I mean if it was just 3 places, what would be the point of anyone’s games 4th-12th for the final third of the season?

It creates more excitement and opportunities for late surging teams or second chance for those who drop off.

[Pedro]

27 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Very true. Imagine losing the play off to the team in 6th who may be ,what, 30 points worse off? Definitely unfair 

It felt fair enough in 1992 ?

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Pedro said:

It felt fair enough in 1992 ?

When you come anywhere but 3rd and go up, it seems great! 

[DE.]

We were only 4 points off Derby in 1992 though, weren't we? That's hardly a huge gap. 

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Very true. Imagine losing the play off to the team in 6th who may be ,what, 30 points worse off? Definitely unfair 

Disagree. Every team knows the rules before you set off so I Don't think the playoffs are unfair in the slightest. It's all very well complaining after the event if You're 3rd and end up missing out but I'd wager before the season started not many Clubs would have preferred to scrap the safety net of the playoffs. As a fan I certainly wouldn't have wanted to take the risk of having to finish in the top two.

I think the play offs are the best idea the authorities ever came up with. They're a terrific spectacle and whilst there might be the occasional hard luck story they keep the season alive for the vast majority of fans and Clubs. The season would be exceptionally dull without anything to play for for most if play offs were scrapped.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Some good reading here, apart from the Wigan journo saying Morsey is the best midfielder in the league  

Shrewsbury journo tips us and them

Rovers Journo tips us and Shrewsbury

Wouldn't that be great  

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/16129913.Rovers__Wigan_and_Shrewsbury_reporters_discuss_the_League_One_promotion_race/?ref=mac 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, RevidgeBlue said:

Disagree. Every team knows the rules before you set off so I Don't think the playoffs are unfair in the slightest. It's all very well complaining after the event if You're 3rd and end up missing out but I'd wager before the season started not many Clubs would have preferred to scrap the safety net of the playoffs. As a fan I certainly wouldn't have wanted to take the risk of having to finish in the top two.

I think the play offs are the best idea the authorities ever came up with. They're a terrific spectacle and whilst there might be the occasional hard luck story they keep the season alive for the vast majority of fans and Clubs. The season would be exceptionally dull without anything to play for for most if play offs were scrapped.

I agree with what you say, very exciting and everyone knows that they are signed up for, but you can't really disagree with my point that they are unfair. A team  could finish 30 points clear of another and not go up. Great for the team 30 points behind, but unfair on the team in 3rd. They could have missed out on 2nd by goal difference 

[Pedro]

Just now, DE. said:

We were only 4 points off Derby in 1992 though, weren't we? That's hardly a huge gap. 

Still sixth.  I like the play offs, it keeps the league competitive for much longer and that boiling hot bank holiday Monday in May 92' was one of the nerviest but greatest days of my life.

[DE.]

Just now, Pedro said:

Still sixth.  I like the play offs, it keeps the league competitive for much longer and that boiling hot bank holiday Monday in May 92' was one of the nerviest but greatest days of my life.

I'm not advocating scrapping the playoffs, only suggesting that if a team comes 15 points plus behind third place then they probably don't deserve to contest a playoff match.

With that said, implementing a points-based entry criteria would probably mean the playoff structure would have to change to a mini-league tournament as opposed to straight knock out matches, as some years you could end up with uneven teams. It probably becomes overly complicated at that point, and most years the points totals are much closer so... yeah. Still unfair in my book but on the balance of things I suppose you just have to accept some seasons will be like that.

Automatic promotion is in our hands anyway, so let's just get that and leave the playoffs for somebody else to worry about.

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

I agree with what you say, very exciting and everyone knows that they are signed up for, but you can't really disagree with my point that they are unfair. A team  could finish 30 points clear of another and not go up. Great for the team 30 points behind, but unfair on the team in 3rd. They could have missed out on 2nd by goal difference 

I don't think They're unfair because every club knows the rules and where you stand before you start. You have to finish above two other teams to go up automatically. The number of points you get is completely irrelevant. If you don't manage that then you have the potential added safety net of qualifying via the play offs. I think the benefits of that potential second chance far outweigh the risk of finishing 3rd and not going up.

If however for the sake of argument the authorities changed the rules mid season from two up to the current system at a point where three Clubs were already ten points clear then that would obviously be grossly unfair.

[blueboy3333]

14 minutes ago, Biz said:

To be fair though, the playoffs make it more interesting for everyone - I mean if it was just 3 places, what would be the point of anyone’s games 4th-12th for the final third of the season?

It creates more excitement and opportunities for late surging teams or second chance for those who drop off.

It's now 6 teams who qualify for the play-offs in The National League (Conference, Conference North & South etc) In the Conference only 1 teams goes up automatically, then the 2nd and 3rd place qualify for the semi's on a bye and the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th play to see who joins them. AFC Fylde are in 8th at present.

Soon, if you're not relegated, you'll be in the play-offs.

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I don't think They're unfair because every club knows the rules and where you stand before you start. You have to finish above two other teams to go up automatically. The number of points you get is completely irrelevant. If you don't manage that then you have the potential added safety net of qualifying via the play offs. I think the benefits of that potential second chance far outweigh the risk of finishing 3rd and not going up.

If however for the sake of argument the authorities changed the rules mid season from two up to the current system at a point where three Clubs were already ten points clear then that would obviously be grossly unfair.

Reminds me of Huddersfield being in them last year and therefore resting players against Birmingham, so being in or not in them at a certain time can define what line up you may have against 2 teams in a relegation battle for example. It's probably the best option, but it has its faults 

[JBiz]

24 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

It's now 6 teams who qualify for the play-offs in The National League (Conference, Conference North & South etc) In the Conference only 1 teams goes up automatically, then the 2nd and 3rd place qualify for the semi's on a bye and the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th play to see who joins them. AFC Fylde are in 8th at present.

Soon, if you're not relegated, you'll be in the play-offs.

Perhaps that’s a little extreme for us both but I do see value in the current semi final/final for 3-6th

Another aspect that I’m surprised isn’t utilised; a relegation playoff. This might’ve saved us last season.. and you can at least then be less frustrated at a goal difference relegation if you lose your play off game. 

[arbitro]

Just now, Biz said:

Perhaps that’s a little extreme for us both but I do see value in the current semi final/final for 3-6th

Another aspect that I’m surprised isn’t utilised; a relegation playoff. This might’ve saved us last season.. and you can at least then be less frustrated at a goal difference relegation if you lose your play off game. 

When the playoffs were first played in the 80's they involved one team from a higher league who had just escaped relegation and the three reams immediately below the automatically promoted teams. From memory I think Charlton were one from the old First Division who kept their place by winning the playoffs.

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 minutes ago, Biz said:

Perhaps that’s a little extreme for us both but I do see value in the current semi final/final for 3-6th

Another aspect that I’m surprised isn’t utilised; a relegation playoff. This might’ve saved us last season.. and you can at least then be less frustrated at a goal difference relegation if you lose your play off game. 

They have it in Ireland. The team who finish 2nd bottom play the team who finished 2nd in the league below.   Interesting dynamic as the team at the bottom are usually lacking in confidence, where the team who are 2nd are usually buzzing. 

[JBiz]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

They have it in Ireland. The team who finish 2nd bottom play the team who finished 2nd in the league below.   Interesting dynamic as the team at the bottom are usually lacking in confidence, where the team who are 2nd are usually buzzing. 

I was thinking more bottom 6 in a similar way to top 6;

bottom two relegated, 3rd bottom to 6th bottom in pairs, losers play each other in a survival shoot out. Obviously not at Wembley, though wouldn’t be glamorous enough, perhaps force nearly relegated teams the ignominy of playing at Turf Moor...

[philipl]

2 hours ago, JHRover said:

I still can't get over how much higher the total points for automatic promotion is going to be in comparison to last season. I know it's ultimately irrelevant but still interesting to compare.

After 46 games last season Scunthorpe finished 3rd on 82 points. We're already on 82 off 39 games. Bolton finished the season with 86 points - 25 wins, 11 draws and 10 defeats - but only needed 83 to secure automatic promotion. We've already got 24 wins and 10 draws, but only 5 defeats. We've already scored 74 goals, Bolton only scored 68 last season. To match Sheffield United's total we'd have to win 6 and lose 1 of our remaining 7. Doable but probably won't happen.

Another 15 points from 21 puts us onto 97 for the season with a strong goal difference. Surely that will be enough.

The current points gap between us and 5th is the same as the points gap between 5th and 22nd.

[AAK]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Some good reading here, apart from the Wigan journo saying Morsey is the best midfielder in the league  

Shrewsbury journo tips us and them

Rovers Journo tips us and Shrewsbury

Wouldn't that be great  

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/football/rovers/news/16129913.Rovers__Wigan_and_Shrewsbury_reporters_discuss_the_League_One_promotion_race/?ref=mac 

When did they do that? It mentions Shrewsbury having 9 games to play in the league, they only have 6.

[JHRover]

Keep on working at a minimum of 2 points per game. That's the level we're exceeding at present and is the usual benchmark for promotion. That will get us to 96. That would mean Shrewsbury would need 16 points from 18 to finish above us. Unlikely to happen.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, AAK said:

When did they do that? It mentions Shrewsbury having 9 games to play in the league, they only have 6.

Must have been a  while back, but its only up a couple of days 

[JHRover]

Things can change very quickly. All of a sudden the prospect of playing Charlton, Posh and Pompey in the play-offs is one I would not fancy, yet a few weeks ago none of those looked likely to even get in the play-offs. Rotherham were beating all before them recently, now they're stuttering. Scunthorpe have completely gone off the boil yet whenever I've seen them play they look quality. In a few games time the Plymouth march might have ended or Charlton's honeymoon under Bowyer might be at an end.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, JHRover said:

Things can change very quickly. All of a sudden the prospect of playing Charlton, Posh and Pompey in the play-offs is one I would not fancy, yet a few weeks ago none of those looked likely to even get in the play-offs. Rotherham were beating all before them recently, now they're stuttering. Scunthorpe have completely gone off the boil yet whenever I've seen them play they look quality. In a few games time the Plymouth march might have ended or Charlton's honeymoon under Bowyer might be at an end.

Shrewsbury have to play Charlton and Peterborough in the next few weeks. Going to be very difficult to win those games 

[47er]

Just saw the reference to Chelsea above so relieved to confirm I hadn't dreamt it!

[arbitro]

Just now, 47er said:

Didn't we lose to Chelsea in those same play-off circumstances? 

We could well have done. I remember the format changing as it was considered unfair on the higher league team.