roversfan99

Thats not the point I was making, I was talking about the common recurrence of people demanding that academy graduates/permanent players are picked over loanees, it should be solely based on getting a result hence why Nyambe, Lenihan and Rothwell should play too. Downing actually said that the subs bench was regularly rotated, not the starting 11. He sometimes missed out on the bench because Mowbray used to rotate the subs bench to keep the whole squad happy, which I agree was counterproductive.

Contractual situations should be a total irrelevance 11 games into a season, I don't understand the obsession about loanees. Whether they are on a long term deal like Dolan, a contract with an option for next season like Brereton and Burns, are into their final year like Butterworth or are on loan like Khadra and Poveda, the decision should purely be made on ability and performance levels. Permanent, loan, long term, short term, old, young, just pick the best to win the game.

You are comparing 2 totally different situations. There were a fair few games towards the end of the season where an inability to make the top 6 nor be relegated were either mathematically confirmed or at least confirmed beyond reasonable doubt, at which point I was very critical of Mowbray for playing players who wouldn't be here this season, I agree with that point made. We are 11 games into a season now though, so now the sole focus should be on putting out the best side to win each game. Only if and when the above scenario plays out again should we again then solely focus on the following season. Fans don't pay £400 per season or £30 a game to watch development football, with the primary purpose being long term development, and indeed I think that if we did start choosing based solely on next season and beyond, then we would soon become embroiled at the bottom. Out of interest, with Nyambe, Lenihan, Rothwell and numerous others out of contract at the end of the season and unlikely to renew, would they be jettisoned now if you was manager in favour of players who are contracted into next season?

So one solitary, presumably pissed up knobhead shouting a few things at him? An idiot who no right minded person would condone the behaviour of, but hardly a witch hunt. In the main, he has been supported at games, would you not agree? He may well play in the top league, but as I said, I don't think judging him as an individual based on his first 2 years, that where he is at the moment and how regular the goals are coming would have been the case so soon. Regarding young players, of course they should be allowed game time, but they should only be selected if they warrant it on an individual basis in the first place, in the first 2 years for example Brereton was not showing flashes to warrant more game time. His development has been fairly sudden on the pitch, and I think is down to a number of reasons. We aren't challenging for promotion no but results still matter, we are 11 games in. Results do matter still and are more important than anything else, whether that be player development. Expecting a totally sanitised environment in which no one ever shows frustration and in which every young player is played regularly regardless of performance with development prioritised over results (I know you haven't said that, just a point I making separately) is unrealistic and will never happen, nor should it. Whether we are aiming to sneak into the play offs or even to fend off relegation which could happen if results nosedive, results are the most important thing.

Moans and groans are occasional, natural shows of frustration that you will find at every single football ground, up and down the country, and have nothing to do with the questioning support. A footballer should be able to have the mental strength to deal with occasional moans and groans as a direct consequence of poor performance, which based on Brereton in recent months, he very much could. It is unrealistic to expect a totally sanitised environment free of natural human emotion. Abuse is a whole different ball game, and something I personally have never witnessed, what have you seen that you would describe as abuse? What people predict on here is again nothing to do with support, and he was hopeless for 2 years. What he is doing now couldn't realistically have been anticipated and constructively predicted so soon after those performances. But anyone who predicted things like that are merely wrong, their prediction hasn't come to fruition, and contrary to popular belief, I am sure that they will be happy to see him doing so well.

The 7 million fee doesn't automatically mean he was worth that amount, Gallagher cost 5m, Grabbi cost 7m, Friedel was free, Dack was less than a million, I could go on. And plenty of players worse than Brereton have played for the England under age sides, Lowe was captain of the under 21s wasn't he? I have seen a lot of desperation to paint fans in a bad light, in stadiums he has been given plenty of support, and I personally do not recall those shoots of promise in the first 2 seasons, merely putting him in the "young player who will get better by playing" category is not sufficient, he didn't warrant game time. His transformation has been as unexpected as it has been great to see, IMO. Those who did back him to come good 2 years ago didn't themselves predict what we see today, or necessarily say "he does this well" etc, it was more of a stick to bash with fans with for criticising a player who was playing poorly. Not really relevant, not all young players will get up to the required standard so each case is individual. But Rice I don't think is a top class central midfielder but he is 100% a deserved and guaranteed pick for England and has personally developed well over the last year. Mount still needs to do more to warrant a similar role, he is behind Foden and Grealish for me, but he is a talented player for club and country. Brereton is not comparable.

It wasn't a slight on Chile in particular, my point was more that it is impossible to know until if and when something like that happened.

And even if it was, there were no real shoots of promise in the first 18/24 months, he didn't warrant more game time because he struggled to avoid tripping over his own feet. His last 15/18 months were not predictable by anyone prior, no matter how much people try to make out as such based on a desperation to paint our supporters as villains.

The line about youngsters being expected to play for the first team in the future is purely speculative and often trotted out, it was about Adarabioyo yet after a successful loan spell here he was instantly sold to Fulham. I am not sure if these 2 goalkeepers would be part of the conversation if they had a different nationality but they both have minimal first team experience. Raya was a liability in that last season here when exposed to regular Championship football, which I suppose was his first regular season at that level, he made far too many mistakes but you have to acknowledge the noticeable improvement now. He is incomparable to kids who aren't playing at his level.

I didn't go to that Blackpool game, I remember watching it online though and Brereton was hopeless and didn't seem to be fully trying even. Out of interest, what was the abuse that day, one or two pissed up people or quite a few, swearing/insults, personal stuff, booing, what exactly was it? Was he definitely crying and as a direct consequence as it never seems to have been acknowledged since publically, even in a "look how far he has come since" kind of way. I was at Blackpool away however, and heard no such "dogs abuse" to the hapless Magloire. Again, what sort of abuse did you hear, the odd piss head calling him shit, or something more substantial? Mowbray regularly talks about loaning out kids to feel what professional football feels like, when working class people pay good money and spend good time travelling up and down the country, and when their team isn't performing, it is normal that the frustration spills out, and it is a different way from the uncompetitive, sanitised world of kids football. I am trying to establish exactly what you have witnessed, whether it is normal frustration spilling over or something that overstepped the mark. I think there is this narrative that unfairly grows as if Rovers fans at stadiums are an unruly pitchfork wielding mob which would be obviously untrue. I think Mowbray's approach to blooding youngsters towards the end of the seasons is definitely mixed, I felt he did well letting Carter having a couple of games the season before last, realising that he was nowhere near ready and eventually got him loaned out, but in the main he can be reluctant as I felt was the case last season. But Brereton did get quite a few starts towards the end of that season if I recall, one of which was against Bolton. I do think he took him back out though for the last 2, definitely Norwich away, and a few others have not been given enough experimentation. The problem is, its long term v short term, ultimately the most important thing (until if you get near the end of the season and there is little to play for) is to win the next game, which is why it makes me laugh when Mowbray has been criticised this season for bringing on loanees over permanent players, as if that should come into consideration during a game so early into the season, and often with the irony of said permanent player being in the last year of his deal. I still don't think that Buckley has performed to a level whereby his selection is guaranteed even now, although in the absence of much credible alternatives, it is natural that he gets a run.

When he did make cameos, he looked so poor though, he didn't warrant or justify more of a chance, especially with the Dack and Graham combination as you mention. I don't like the idea that he got a hard time off the supporters though. Criticism in places like forums (and even on social media although you get a lot of real idiots on both sides of every argument there) is perfectly fine, in the ground he has never been given a hard time.

My point was that the important and more senior players, including our captain, main goalscorer and best full back are all proving too difficult to get to sign again, whereas kids on the fringes yet to prove themselves fully are the ones we can get done. I think it is a self explanatory point and one that you are arguing about for the sake of it, to be honest.

Not the point that I was making. Senior players with 100+ games and noticeable impact on Championship games, ones who would interest other teams if they were free, we cant get them to sign. Dolan signed a new deal about 20 senior games into his career, at least half from the bench. Buckley signed his last season before establishing himself as a regular. Carter had about 4/5 senior starts at Championship level before signing, Wharton himself had about 10 maximum and was suffering from serious injury. They are far easier and far cheaper to get to sign.

You have conveniently ignored that last season, he was much improved (albeit unremarkably so) on his first 2 seasons to which a football pitch looked alien to him, and he didn't warrant more time. I am sure that there are many factors that have led to this season's goalscoring form, not just the added confidence from his fame over in Chile. As mentioned, he had improved last season, further training has led to him using his body better, looking bigger and more powerful, improving technically etc, that can be put down to coaching. He also seems to have thrived now key players have left as the man (rather than Gallagher who has failed to do this) to really step up to fill the void and the responsibility. He takes penalties now, 3 extra goals and presumably more to come from that source main player, taking penalties which will boost the goal tally and then his confidence. It doesn't fit the constant narrative, but I very much doubt that Mowbray's future is key to Brereton's decision, and making out that he is a huge anchor on Brereton's potential development is unfair. Money is and will be the main factor, as will the potential chance to play at a higher level, much more key to any decision than Mowbray v other Championship managers. Seemingly a mixture of a somewhat counter-productive strict wage cap and a lack of proactivity have left us in a sticky situation, but lets not make out that the improvement is totally down to the Chilean manager/staff in a couple of weeks. Release clauses may become a necessary evil. It means that we could hopefully fit the player in within the wage structure, we accept that they may be sold at some point, but that point doesn't have to be now.

Why is the word supporters placed in inverted commas? Does not rating a player or criticising a players performance in any way make you less of a supporter? I don't recall any booing or indeed any hating, but if nonsensical and petulant hyperbole helps you to get a point across, then fair enough. In his first 18/24 months, he showed minimal if any signs of even being a promising talent, he looked hopeless, and I felt that Ewood was very supportive of him, I recall the happiness/relief for him after his goal v Bolton. This nasty supporter narrative that some seem keen to thrust forward at every opportunity really does confuse me. To go off on a tangent, I suspect if he ever misses a key chance, a penalty, if Chile don't qualify for a tournament etc, the hostility there would be a lot more than a few moans and groans from a third full Ewood when something goes awry. And I also suspect that all agents are not leeches comparable to a deadly disease, and indeed footballers are young men who are probably lacking the awareness to be able to successfully negotiate their own contracts, so I can understand why they pay someone more qualified to do it for them. All of them players will surely be right near the bottom of our wage structure, minimal to no interest from elsewhere, Wharton with an injury too, different ball game to our senior players who we are unable to offer sufficient terms to.

Good news for him, but not for Rovers for whom the likelihood of a new deal gets ever slimmer. Need to offer him a wage at the top of our wage structure and have a bit of flexibility, goalscorers are worth the most and we simply cannot lose another asset for cut price. Sensible structure my arse.

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I think the exciting thing isnt even just his potential but very much how good he is now. Stands out regularly in big games. If Winks gets back into the England reckoning then something has gone awry.

I just think thats hes a brilliant player, at 21 everytime I see him he stands out even around world class players.

The problem is, are they going to displace the clutch of attacking midfielders that are currently being picked?

More financially sensible ie restricting your self imposed wage cap so strictly that your key assets leave for free.

I do think with Foden that he is brilliant anywhere along that front 3 and even deeper. He regularly plays on either side or even as a false 9 for City and stands out with regular goals and assists. Southgate seems to love Mount in that central role for what he does off the ball but I think especially as we need to become better on the ball as shown v Italy, ideally Foden could go in there with the team built around him. Bellingham could potentially displace Phillips too. The question I had with Grealish joining City is whether he can adapt. At a mid table club he had the ability as a maverick and thrived being a big fish in a small pond with the whole team geared to serving him. At City he is surrounded by better players but to justify regular selection he needs to become more flexible, as equally hard working and match the goals/assists that they all get and its the same with England.

Dele Alli surely will never play for England again, he looks totally shot, he was a flash in the pan I think, embarrassing in the North London derby last week. We do have some good strength in depth but mainly amidst the players already being selected, not sure the likes of Maddison, Konsa and Loftus-Cheek would come close to worrying the bigger nations. The pressure is on the next World Cup because of reaching the Semi Final and Final of the 2 tournaments prior, there is a natural expectation that we should be one of the favourites to win it for the first time in my life time anyway and if we fail to even match that last tournament final place, there will be strong pressure on Southgate to be removed, and the margins in tournament football are so thin. We have to build around Foden, that I am sure of.

We may aswell have been in an embargo to be fair, we were in a self inflicted one, whereby we could only bring in kids on cheap, heavily sponsored loans who don't seem of the calibre to improve us particularly, whilst our self inflicted strict wage cap will see numerous valuable assets leave on frees.

I get the general frustration and the 11 year thing is exactly why the real common denominator here is Venkys and why I could happily call them words much stronger than pricks. They are the ones that deserve all of the wrath, Mowbray is just a manager who was doing a good job but whose tenure has grown stagnant and turned into him doing a below par job. But my point was, as far as I know to some people who didn't even attend in the first place so weren't personally "affected," are him not coming over to clap fans (something I wanted to clarify, maybe there was something else that he did that made calling him a prick necessary) and also complimenting the atmosphere of the Blackpool fans (which was a good atmosphere to be fair) really reasons to get so worked up? Especially when there are much more valid and constructive reasons to be frustrated with him, tactics, team selection etc. Again, your last sentence implies that he is choosing to "dig out fans, point out untruths to protect himself and at times just bare face lie" ahead of focusing on his own failings, as if there is time to do one or the other and he is actively choosing the former. He gets asked questions in interviews and last season like any manager struggling with poor results, he could at times get prickly or even wrap himself in knots from game to game trying to desperately justify poor results, it happens, the results themselves are the issue, not what he says after, how he behaves and carries himself on the touchline, whether he claps the fans at the end, these are all trivial issues.