[Archived] Academy?

[rover_groo]

Mido didn't want to come to us;

Thank feck.

Wasting good for nothing tramp.

[Alan75]

An interesting read from the TimesAcademies Face Closure,

From the Times.

Frustration with the lack of home-grown talent coming through in English football has reached such a level that clubs have started to discuss closing their academies.

Robert Coar, a director and former chairman of Blackburn Rovers, said: “I think there are clubs who think, ‘We understand that academies are the right thing to do, but are we getting players through often enough?’ It’s a perennial question. I think everybody is beginning to think hard and to set about making a decision.”

[FourLaneBlue]

In that article Coar also says...

"“If I had a son coming through, in some ways I’d send him to an academy in the Championship. He might have a better chance of rising to the top there."

Two points -

1. I'm sure Coar's son would be able to get a job at Rovers somewhere Just kidding

2. It is obviously very difficult to bring players through in the Premiership yet just about every other team have better recent records than Rovers. We haven't brought through a single player in last half decade and, even now, when the conditions seem ideal (poorly performing player who supposedly still has a niggling injury he is recovering from) to give youngsters a chance the manager refuses to give them a start. Both the management and the players are to blame.

That article mentions the success stories at the moment. So...why are Rovers (or Charlton as the article mentioned) so poor in this area at the moment and for the last few years? Other than twiddling their thumbs and bemoaning their fate what new initiatives have been followed? What new faces have been brought in? It may all be peeing in the wind but it'd be good to see them trying new something new.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Sounds ominous to say the least!

[FourLaneBlue]

The article also mentions some stats, including..."£1.5m Average annual spend on Premiership academies by each club".

We don't know for sure how much Rovers are currently spending on their academy but it is hard to believe it is over a million more than the average for the whole Prem.

£1.5million would buy practically nothing in terms of players - one cheap foreigner for a fee of under a million and their signing-on fee and wages for the year at most. Yet we wouldn't even be able to afford that as we would presumably still have a youth team and that would cost money.

So...economically speaking the Academy seems a fair better option than anything else. All we need is one player to come through every few years and it will have more than paid for itself.

Let's just hope the club don't outsource the bloody thing though or it really will all go to pot!

Edited December 10, 2006 by FourLaneBlue

[unleaded]

One of the problems is that there are to many players.Way too many.There are about 30 players for the Under 18 section plus another 20 with the researve players making it 50 players all together!!(All trying to get into a First 11 with 30 other first team players) Far too much and too expensive. The bigger the squad, the lower the standard.

Then even the players playing regularly at the Academy level aren't involved in Reserve team training. But week in week out they play against teams where most players have experience at that level. So to progress is very difficult and younger players don't get the support they need.

If you want young players to progress you have to push them,IMHO or else they will stagnate.You've to concentrate on few players and develope them. Stick with the one's you think might make it. But they choose big squads to be succesful. Winning is everything, not performance or development.

Edited December 10, 2006 by unleaded

[Alan75]

One of the problems is that there are to many players.Way too many.There are about 30 players for the Under 18 section plus another 20 with the researve players making it 50 players all together!!(All trying to get into a First 11 with 30 other first team players) Far too much and too expensive. The bigger the squad, the lower the standard.

Then even the players playing regularly at the Academy level aren't involved in Reserve team training. But week in week out they play against teams where most players have experience at that level. So to progress is very difficult and younger players don't get the support they need.

If you want young players to progress you have to push them,IMHO or else they will stagnate.You've to concentrate on few players and develope them. Stick with the one's you think might make it. But they choose big squads to be succesful. Winning is everything, not performance or development.

Well that cant be said at Rovers, due to a small first team squad and numerous injuries, the reserves is made up with a number of academy players on a regular basis.

[den]

There can only be two possible reasons for the lack of youngsters coming through, - it's very simple really:-

1] Rovers aren't picking up youngsters with the talent needed, or

2] The academy staff aren't doing their job properly.

I suggest it's number one.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Isn't 1) an element of 2)?

Difficult or not, Downes is being paid to recruit talent and bring players through - if it ain't happening, he is accountable.

[rover6]

David McGoldrick, Southampton's striker who is considered their 'next big thing' came on trial at Rovers and I believe that he turned down Rovers (rather than Rovers rejecting him) in favour of Southampton. If I'm not mistaken, he went for Southampton because he believed that he was more likely to get first team opportunities.

I'm sure some youngsters have been discouraged from joining Rovers because of the perceived reluctance to give home-grown guys chances.

[rover_groo]

1. I'm sure Coar's son would be able to get a job at Rovers somewhere Just kidding

Only got to reading it now, but one of the comments of the year for me.

[elwaxo]

David McGoldrick, Southampton's striker who is considered their 'next big thing' came on trial at Rovers and I believe that he turned down Rovers (rather than Rovers rejecting him) in favour of Southampton. If I'm not mistaken, he went for Southampton because he believed that he was more likely to get first team opportunities.

yeah but that could be coz were prem

Edited December 11, 2006 by elwaxo

[Exiled_Rover]

If that's the best we have to offer, they might as well close the academy now. Gallagher, Derbyshire Sergio and Jay are all twenty and above yet still have a long way to go, if indeed they'll ever make it. Nolan wasn't much better.

Gallagher and Jay aside, they're all far too slight with not enough football skill to play at the top flight. Tugay is a perfect example - if you're going to lose out physically you have to be exceptional on the ball.

[den]

It will be interesting to hear the views of those that want the youngsters playing in the first team.

I would ask - which ones?

[Dave S]

It will be interesting to hear the views of those that want the youngsters playing in the first team.

I would ask - which ones?

I think Matt Derbyshire isnt too far off a start in the first team. We only have Nonda & McCarthy (Fit) as senior strikers so I would start him against Reading.

Sergio wasn't on top of his game tonight but I think he has the ability to be in the first team squad. I think his appearance tonight could put pressure on MGP to perform better.

As for the others, Nolan is still relatively young. Most matches I have seen him play he has been a center half and at 19, (I think) he will have a while yet to develop.

Gally & McEv seem to be too inconsistent they do some things that give the impression that they could make it then at other times seem to be lacking in certain areas of their game. The question with these two is at what point do the club decide too much time has been spent waiting for the players to improve in aspects of their overall play.

The example I would like to give is Martin Taylor. He was big (brick outhouse), relatively quick, good in the tackle etc etc Rovers waited for years and he just didn't progress to the next level which everyone hoped he would aspire to.

[Baz]

I don't think any of them did well tonight - some were adequate (Matty), others poor (Jay) , but no outstanding performances to secure a first team place.

Duffer and Jonty were fighting for a starting position at the age some of these lads are, Dunny was playing - I cant see anyone anywhere near that level.

[modes98]

I would ask - which ones?

Have to say i wanted MGP dropped for Peter but the difference between before and after the sub was amazing. Maybe it had something to do with MGP being fresh but he got the ball into the box which for the previous x minutes peter had failed to do with any effect.

Derbs looked good with his movement and was not supported very well by Gally. Jay looked as if he has lost all his confidence and was trying so hard not to give the ball away. Nolan did nothing wrong, i thought he was a CB though?

[FourLaneBlue]

It will be interesting to hear the views of those that want the youngsters playing in the first team.

I would ask - which ones?

The ones that Hughes feel have the potential...and when the players in the first team could benefit from a rest or have been consistently poor so that we need a change.

Nolan and Derbyshire both played well today considering how daunting an occasion it must have been for both. Peter wasn't on-song today but then...none of our experienced players were either.

McEveley and Gallagher have both had many chances and I'm not sure either is up to it. They are few years further on in their experience compared to the others mentioned and I'm not sure where they will end up. I feel sorry for them as they probably aren't sure what way their careers are going to go. I'm not sure how well Rovers have played in developing them. Souness brought them into the first team yet they have been in and out then sent on loan etc. Whether they would have benefited by a less haphazard role in our first-team squad is debatable. I'd suspect not but there was always that chance.

So to summarise...we've been playing without any youngsters and been losing.

Yet tonight we played with some youngsters yet while still rubbish we did actually win. So...it is hardly the end of the world to give youngsters a try every now and then. No need for the knee-jerk reactions I'd have thought but it is always the same on here these days whenever a youngster plays and doesn't win the game single-handed.

Hughes must think they have some potential...so use them every now and then to stop the first-team having to play constantly.

Have to say i wanted MGP dropped for Peter but the difference between before and after the sub was amazing. Maybe it had something to do with MGP being fresh but he got the ball into the box which for the previous x minutes peter had failed to do with any effect.

This is what I am suggesting...if Peter played a little bit more he may gain some confidence himself AND it would mean we wouldn't be running MGP into the ground. The guy seems to have be playing almost every minute until recently and hasn't looked like providing a spark. See what a difference subbing him made against Charlton...wonder goal in his next game and tonight it looked like he had a point to prove.

We have to wee with the willy we've got...so let's not use it out! If we have such a small squad that we need youngsters to play a bit more for the good of all then so be it. The Premiership is a very competitive league. We can't afford to have tired players compared to the opposition who may not have to deal with being in Europe or may have a far larger squad.

Edited December 14, 2006 by FourLaneBlue

[den]

None of the youngsters - Derbs, Gally, Jay, Peter or Nolan look anywhere near being ready for the first team. It's dellusion to think otherwise.

[rover6]

The thing that people are not considering, imo, is that first team football is part of the development of a youngster.

The game yesterday will improve Nolan, Derbs and Peter - so that they'll be more equipped next time to make of an impact - even if it's just a case of getting the nerves over and done with and freeing their game. However, they need another bite of the cherry quickly, otherwise anything they learnt from this game will evaporate.

Gamst was unimpressive on his first showings but grew with games. Same with Reidy. Imo, if Hughes believes that these guys have potential, then he should give them games to allow them to develop. I don't see why new signings are afforded 'time to settle'. Aren't the youth players just as new to playing the Premiership?

Only the exceptional talents - eg Rooney, are 'ready' for the Premiership from day one. Most don't hit the heights first but develop with games and confidence. Look at Jamie Carragher - one-time jack of all trades, now superb centre back.

Now, you can't go giving every youngster first team chances to develop. That's why Hughes should cut his losses with Jay McEveley - taking into account all the factrors. His errors, his difficulty with coping with decent wingers - even Champ wingers whilst at Gillingham and Ipswich and let him go. He is whole-hearted and quite good on the ball but defensively suspect.

Edited December 14, 2006 by rover6

[Florida Rover]

Would the 5 players who had played at the Academy be the largest number on the pitch at the same time for the senior team since the Academy came into existence?Even if they did play poorly(based on your observations I have read and opinions espoused),that is a nice accomplishment and moreso that we won the game with them all on the pitch at some point.

Back to the question:have more than 5 Academy players played for the senior team at the same time?

[Lee]

Closest I can remember in recent times was West Ham v Rovers in the League Cup in 2000, Souness put out a rather weak side...

Blackburn: Kelly ,Curtis ,Martin Taylor (Flitcroft ,73 ) ,Dailly ,Kenna ,McAteer ,Carsley ,Dunning ,Johnson (Douglas ,56 ) ,Ostenstad ,Richards (Dunn ,68)

Subs not used Filan,O'Brien,

Taylor, Dunning, Johnson, Douglas, Richards and Dunn all came through.

Of course there will have been games where Taylor, Duff, Dunn and Johnson will have played.

[Alex Rover]

Closest I can remember in recent times was West Ham v Rovers in the League Cup in 2000, Souness put out a rather weak side...

Blackburn: Kelly ,Curtis ,Martin Taylor (Flitcroft ,73 ) ,Dailly ,Kenna ,McAteer ,Carsley ,Dunning ,Johnson (Douglas ,56 ) ,Ostenstad ,Richards (Dunn ,68)

Subs not used Filan,O'Brien,

Blimey that really was a poor team.

[Dave S]

None of the youngsters - Derbs, Gally, Jay, Peter or Nolan look anywhere near being ready for the first team. It's dellusion to think otherwise.

I think dellusion is a bit harsh.

Matt is a very good finisher. Compared to his generation of reserve players, Gally, Johnson etc he is by far the best at staying calm an putting the ball in the net.

With first team injuries, he is now at least the third choice striker and the only way we will know if he can finish at premier level is if he plays.

I am normally very reserved at assessing reserve players as my previous post shows. But he is the nearest we have and we are desperately short. He should at least be on the bench against reading. I would give him a start.

[JAL]

I think dellusion is a bit harsh.

Matt is a very good finisher. Compared to his generation of reserve players, Gally, Johnson etc he is by far the best at staying calm an putting the ball in the net.

With first team injuries, he is now at least the third choice striker and the only way we will know if he can finish at premier level is if he plays.

I am normally very reserved at assessing reserve players as my previous post shows. But he is the nearest we have and we are desperately short. He should at least be on the bench against reading. I would give him a start.

So how do you explain when Matty went one on one with the whole goal to aim for against Nancy, Darbyshire put the ball into the keepers hand - a very poor finisher in my opinion and definitely never ever premier league material. That was Matty's moment of glory and he failed to sieze the opportunity.

The rest of the young lads who played against Nancy with the exception of Nolan who probably made more mistakes than the rest, to me have no future at Blackburn unless that is we play Division one football or the old third division standard because thats the level they are at.

The people running the academy have to be questioned from the scouts to the coaches because the kids simply arent good enough at this moment in time and for two million pounds per year invetsment - what a waste.