[Archived] 12 Months On From Ince

[RevidgeBlue]

Not been on the messageboard since early season so I wondered what peoples views on our progress or lack thereof this season were.

It was twelve months ago this weekend that Ince was sacked following the debacle at Wigan. At that point I think we had thirteen points from seventeen games. If we go down to defeat on Tuesday against an in form Birmingham we'll be six points better off at a comparable stage.

Imo the first half of this season has been fairly disappointing with entertainment at a strict premium at home (Chelsea cup tie excepted) and some real howlers of performances away from home, (I've only been to Forest in the Cup, Arsenal and Fulham away)

On the plus side there are signs we might finally have stopped leaking goals which has remained a problem since Ince left. Robinson for Friedel was an inspired piece of business by Ince, Samba is the best centre half in the Prem apart from Terry for me, and Chimbonda has done a lot better than I expected so far.

In midfield Nzonzi looks like a real find. After showing early signs of ring rustiness Bert is also now performing well.

On the downside we seem to be paying Salgado a king's ransom for no reason at all, and Van Heerden or whatever he's called a smaller sum for even less. We still have no real creativity in midfield, Grella will obviously never be fully fit and Dunn has similar problems although he has done very well when we've got him fit and its essential imo we retain him. The signs look terminal for Reid who is also draining the wage bill.

Up front Di Santo doesn't seem able to find the back of the net and seems to be to be playing with less and less enthusiasm as his loan period winds down. Kalinic has very good movement off the ball and clear potential but it's not yet clear if he'll succeed at this level. He needs time on the pitch, games, games and more of them - he's not going to improve sat on the bench. Roberts and McCarthy have clearly fallen out with the manager to a greater or lesser degree and father time isn't on their side.

The two most disappointing players for me this season are Diouff and Pedersen, neither have offered anything at all this campaign and I would try to offload them for anything we can get. At the other end of the age and enthusiasm scale comes Hoillett who looks a rare talent and possesses the one thing we sorely lack throughout the side - pace. Unfortunately, he seems to want to leave. I would move heaven and earth to keep him at all costs.

So overall with clear problems in midfield and up front, even though we currently stand five points away from the relegation zone,I still think we are only a hairs breadth or two or three poor results away from being in trouble.

The main worry is that we sold £27m worth of players in the summer with relatively little of that being reinvested in the playing side. The surplus funds disappeared to pay off the Bank overdraft/the Trustees/operating losses depending on who you believe and predictably despite the huge trading surplus in summer we're told there's no money for January. In my view we only have Samba and maybe Robinson left on the books who would command a sizeable fee. What do we do when they've been sold off?

So to return to the original question: are we any better off than when Ince was here? I would say, yes we are in the sense that we are now defending far better than when he was here, and our points tally is therefore slightly healthier but looking at the overall picture we are no better off or even weaker in terms of playing personnel.

The main problem of course in my view is the ongoing and continuing lack of support from the owners and it is probably unfair to lay the majority of our deficiencies at the managers doorstep. The need for fresh investment and direction is now critical imo and as far as the manager's half term report is concerned the verdict is probably "Doing as well as can be expected in the circumstances". I do feel he could be a lot more adventurous in his approach though, the best we've played in his time he have been the second half against Bolton last season when we came from two down and against Chelsea in the cup with three strikers on the pitch.

I appreciate most will see this as a glass half empty view but I would be really interested in other people's views

as well.

[Silencio]

I think I agree with a lot of what you have said and most will agree on Pedersen and Diouf being wastes of space and wages. It's also clear we need to ship Reid and Salgado out, Salgado and Van Heerden were poor signings IMO.

As you say, N'zonzi is excellent and Kalinic looks promising. I agree that Di Santo's goal return has been poor but disagree that he plays without enthusiasm. I remember you seemed to have it in for him before he even signed. Its clear to me that he has talent and potential.

Overall Sam is doing well with what he has got and I can see signs that the youth and reserve teams are improving. I think one of the big worries is that Hoillet looks to be going. We should move heaven and earth to keep him as you said.

[Blue blood]

A good well balanced honest post Rev.

Your assessment of "yes we are in the sense that we are now defending far better than when he was here, and our points tally is therefore slightly healthier" ties in with my own. We are more resolute defensively and harder to beat, under Ince we looked a shambles against anyone, these days we normally either compete well, or bring our opponents down to our level. In the games I've seen this season the opposition hasn't had masses of chances, something a far cry from the Ince days.

Having said that when we play badly it's amongst the worst I've seen whilst watching rovers. West Ham, the fianl 20/30 mins vs Arsenal and the Chelsea game were utterly absymal and this is hard to stomach, especially in the light of knowing we can be hard to beat and can play some good football.

Offensively we are looking weaker, perhaps not from the Ince days, but it is a far cry from the Hughes era when Peds, Bentley, Benni, Rocky, Reid etc all looked dangerous, Emo was a very attacking full back & Warnock could get forward too - plus the options of Matty D and Roberts on the bench. These days we are a pale shaddow of this. Benni hasn't really hit the heights of his early days with us, whilst Kalinic and Di Santo have much promise but haven't quite delivered as yet.

This is compounded by and imo caused by a horrible lack of creativity and attacking verve in midfield (under both Ince and Sam). We are happy with a mediocre Emerton at right mid, and cite him as one of our best performers. Peds is a shadow of his former self as is Diouf, whilst in the centre we are reliant on injury prone players in Dunn and Grella, and a club like orus cannot have squad players of adequate quality. Ince must shoulder a lot of blame for this, as he a) didn't replace bentley, and in addressing the central midfield problem squandered huge amounts of money (for us) on a crock.

Sam hasn't really addressed the midfield problems too much, although bringing in Diouf was an attempt to add balance to the midfield, and in the very short term worked. The problem is that much of his attention was taken with replacing Rocky, as a top striker is vital to have. In time I think Kalinic will come good, although how long this will take is questionable. I wish Sam had been able to spend the 4m plus on a cm, rather than Ince, although getting in Jacobsen should've meant Emo was freed up more for the centre, but we are desperately short of quality wide players, hence Emo being played there.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Hughes squad needed a revamp, especially under Ince, as players aged or left or both. Ince did nothing towards this making it all the harder for Sam to do. By the time he came in the problems were more acute and fewer resources available to do so. Sam has started to do so, but realistically it'll take time to undo the Ince damage, before starting to redo the ageing part of Hughes squad. I feel that it'll take a whole rebuilding job and especially with our resources take another 2 or 3 transfer windows to get a strong first 11 again.

Another factor to consider is the premiership is getting stronger. With the likes of Stoke for example becoming an established team and being able to buy players like Tuncay (sp) for 5 million shows that many other clubs are progressing at a rate faster than us. I'd say rovers have improved under Sam - both in terms of performances and as a squad but other teams are progressing at a faster rate. Worryingly money is becoming more and more of an integral ingrediant in premiership survival and keeping rovers as a competitive force without this will take greater and greater managerial skill.

[1864roverite]

Welcome back Rev, missed our t'ete et t'estes.

I have to agree with your views on Spit and MGP. Maybe its time for Sam to dissolve his partnership with EHD and for Rovers to take the cut and sell MGP on. I just wonder though if Hoilett can be persuaded to stay becuase cost wise, to replace both is going to be expensive.

Reid has played his last game in a Rovers shirt and for me he should be let free come January.

Interesting you dont mention Ince love idol K Andrews in the midfield agenda. In agreeing with everything you wrote about this headache area for Rovers I must add that he has to be sold and replaced.

Up front, I cant see Benni staying but ask myself just who will take a punt on him because he is still going to command a respectively high transfer fee. Roberts, despite his misgivings provides a better option than an off form McCarthy.

Kalinic will prove his worth I am certain of that whilst di Santo needs to find the net. It will be interesting to see the Chelsea verdict next week on a loan extension. If he goes back hen Rovers could well tap into Sturridge and see if he can score the goals that Frank cannot.

My view is that Rovers are comfortably better off with Sam at the helm. Backed up by a much better and qualified backroom set up Rovers are in good hands. If we can arrest our away form/results and pick up a few wins then with a splendid home form we can progress easily back into the top 10, maybe the top 8 whilst Wembley does not seem a million miles off with our upcoming semi final versus Villa.

[RevidgeBlue]

Worryingly money is becoming more and more of an integral ingrediant in premiership survival and keeping rovers as a competitive force without this will take greater and greater managerial skill.

Unfortunately I suppose that's the top and bottom of it, no matter how much time we spend discussing individual players/tactics etc. I still think Sam could be quite a bit more adventurous at times but in the final analysis a horrible 0-0 is better than an entertaining but ultimately fruitless 2-3 Ince style reverse.

[RibbleValleyRover]

I think we are better off, if we had stuck with Ince i have no doubts in my mind we would have been relegated. When you consider the lack of money being put into the club and the heavy reliance on Sky money then if that happened it could have been a disaster the club would never recover from.

I'm not 100% happy with the things Sam has done, not been happy with his selection and formation at times nor have i agreed with all his transfer dealings. There is still a lot of work to do, glaring weaknesses in central midfield and up front and we are carrying what I perceive as a lot of deadwood in players such as Diouf, Reid and Pedersen.

Sam can only do so much, but with him you know he is going to fight to keep us in this league and considering our finances i can't think of a better man for the job.

[RevidgeBlue]

Interesting you dont mention Ince love idol K Andrews in the midfield agenda. In agreeing with everything you wrote about this headache area for Rovers I must add that he has to be sold and replaced.

I guess the Andrews debate will roll on as long as he remains at Ewood. My view is that ideally we should have someone better in our first choice starting eleven but he is nowhere near as bad as many make out.

If nothing else with Dunn Grella and Reid on the books he is always fit and available for selection.

[magicalmortensleftpeg]

I guess the Andrews debate will roll on as long as he remains at Ewood. My view is that ideally we should have someone better in our first choice starting eleven but he is nowhere near as bad as many make out.

If nothing else with Dunn Grella and Reid on the books he is always fit and available for selection.

I agree. He replaced Mokoena, not Tugay. He can do a job if injuries force key men (Grella, Dunn) out, which i think he has done reasonably well. He shouldnt be a first choice pick in the middle but i dont think he ever will be. Recently, with Grella and Nzonzi fit he was quickly put on the sidelines. He is a usefull squad player to have. Every team needs them.

[modes98]

The main worry is that we sold £27m worth of players in the summer with relatively little of that being reinvested in the playing side.

There has to be a clear answer to your question from that one sentence alone. We have sold that much talent and yet we are still ahead of where we were last season having faced a more difficult set of fixtures IMO (Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea all away, as opposed to home last year).

The younger players who have been brought in on the cheap have done well. As you mentioned the main disappointment is Salgado, I think the money may have been better spent on other areas, i.e. Creative Midfielder for when Dunn broke down.

All in all very much happier than this time last season, after that Wigan away game and feeling like leaving after 10mins.

[RibbleValleyRover]

There has to be a clear answer to your question from that one sentence alone. We have sold that much talent and yet we are still ahead of where we were last season having faced a more difficult set of fixtures IMO (Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea all away, as opposed to home last year).

We are very lucky in that aspect, if those sides around us had spent money wisely on quality players we could have been in a hell of a lot of trouble. The season when they spend big and get is right is the time Rovers fans should be worried, you can't find bargains forever.

[Mr. E]

Obviously, since we're keeping clean sheets and are not in the relegation zone...but because we can't score when we have to, we're stuck in mid-table obscurity. I know many here have said they are "thrilled" with this achievement, but I can't help but dream of more. Not too long ago we were challanging for European football with not better resources than we have now.

On the other hand...it's been some time since we've had such an exciting cup run. Our mediocrity in the Premiership actually helps to bring more importance to these games, because we know it's all or nothing now. I will most gladly take a cup final over 7th place in the league.

[FourLaneBlue]

Imo the first half of this season has been fairly disappointing with entertainment at a strict premium at home (Chelsea cup tie excepted) and some real howlers of performances away from home, (I've only been to Forest in the Cup, Arsenal and Fulham away)

Yes but even two of those...Arsenal and Fulham...had a lot of bright points. Taking the lead twice against Arsenal and the game turning on a nailed-on penalty not being given. Some excellent play at Fulham. The collapses that followed were depressing but the games were not without their glass half-full moments as well as their glass half-empty moments.

The main worry is that we sold £27m worth of players in the summer with relatively little of that being reinvested in the playing side.

So...taking that into account...and with us being six points better off with a game still to play as regards as to when Ince was sacked...then it has been a remarkable job by Sam to turn it around will also operating at a big loss in transfers in and out. Add in the Carling Cup semi and it is obvious that we have now got a hugely superior manager.

The team is slowly gelling together and poor performances are now resulting in players sent to the bench. MGP, Diouf and Andrews all warming the bench rather than starting games. It suggests that they will have to buck up their ideas and earn their place back. Especially for MGP and Diouf who now have (superior some might say) competition in the form of Hoilet and Emerton.

We are still weak in central midfield however. We cannot rely on Dunn. Not with his injury record and anyway a club should never be relying on just the one player for inspiration. If we can just bring in a creative central midfielder in January I, for one, will be very optimistic as regards the future.

We were told that the sales in summer were necessary and helped set Rovers up financially somewhat. We need to hope that, for once, this summer will not see two more of our best players leaving (Sambra and N'zonzi ?) again.

If that is not to be then yes, overall, we have come on in leaps and bounds after the 3-0 humiliation and capitulation that was the Wigan game and most of that season beforehand...

[philipl]

No brainer.

Ince was the biggest disaster Rovers could conceivably have appointed. Revidge Blue would have been a far better manager.

The Trustees have pocketed nothing. The open drain for cash is the players' wages- that is all that needs to be said on the subject.

[RevidgeBlue]

I'm not sure I would take a Cup Final over a good League campaign, 7th place and a Europa Cup slot, but a Cup final certainly beats the hell out of trailing in 15th to 17th each season.

I probably didn't word the title of my post very well. I'm sure everyone agrees we're in better shape with Sam in charge than Ince but what I possibly meant was, are we better off than at the point Ince was sacked and Sam's opening game in charge, that 3-0 victory over Stoke?

[FourLaneBlue]

I probably didn't word the title of my post very well. I'm sure everyone agrees we're in better shape with Sam in charge than Ince but what I possibly meant was, are we better off than at the point Ince was sacked and Sam's opening game in charge, that 3-0 victory over Stoke?

As it happens...yes. As then we were still in the bottom 3, out of the cup and still had to look forward to a summer when we would lose two of our best players and have to bring in a load of untried players for substantially less.

So just have another look at the glass and realise that it is half full at least as much as it is half empty.

The Trustees have pocketed nothing. The open drain for cash is the players' wages- that is all that needs to be said on the subject.

I did not know anyone had been stupid enough to suggest otherwise.

It is obvious that running a Premier League club in an area like East Lancs is going to cost more money than we receive in non-playing staff related income alone. We are a selling club to an extent. However so are almost all clubs who do not receive support from a rich owner.

[RevidgeBlue]

As it happens...yes. As then we were still in the bottom 3, out of the cup and still had to look forward to a summer when we would lose two of our best players and have to bring in a load of untried players for substantially less.

So just have another look at the glass and realise that it is half full at least as much as it is half empty.

So are you confident as opposed to hopeful we won't fall back into a relegation scrap in the second half of the season?

[FourLaneBlue]

I am confident we will not go down.

Cheer up Rev...might never happen!

[Ozz]

I get the feeling Sam won't get us relegated, where as under Ince, I did.

Before the Hull away game last season, I said to the Mrs if we loose this we will get relegated. Sam got us a win, under Ince I 'm sure we'd have lost.

She said why are you so obsessed with Rovers. I said good question. She ate a packet of Bombay Mix. We stayed up.

[Amo]

Ince was an unmitigated disaster, leading us on a one-way ticket to the Championship.

Sam stands accused of being bull-headed and unfashionable, and is still working out his best 11 (circumstances permitting), but I'm confident he'll keep the ship steadied for as long as suitably possible.

[Stuart]

Good grief, I hope Jan doesn't see this thread!

The correct answer is Yes, btw.

[RIML]

So overall with clear problems in midfield and up front, even though we currently stand five points away from the relegation zone,I still think we are only a hairs breadth or two or three poor results away from being in trouble.

..........we currently stand five points away from Liverpool in 7th place too

[47er]

Are we any better off than when Ince was here? Yes and we'd be a damned sight worse off if he were still here.

Its a daft question in my view because the financial problems would remain whomever was here. They had nothing to do with Ince ( who admittedly made them worse) and they are not the fault of the current manager--just his to deal with.

[ABBEY]

WERE YOU BEEN HIDING REV????

bans not normally that long? prison? lol

better off points wise =yes

entertainment (chelsea asside...i missed it grrr)= dull dour lacklustre

message board..down pan pal

[Paul]

Not been on the messageboard since early season so I wondered what peoples views on our progress or lack thereof this season were.

Good to read your views again Rev. I very much agree with all you have said. My only point would be to suggest the impact of this season's performances on next year's ST sales may be considerable. Most of the home football has been pretty grim, yes there have been exceptions we all know about, but I'm worried by how many of the new ST holders will be back next year.

The ST deal was a great initiative by the club and clearly worked very well. The question now is has this attracted real fans who had stopped going because of cost or are they more casual fans who may disappear if the entertainment aspect remains as it is? I don't think we'll really know till next August.

[thenodrog]

On the plus side there are signs we might finally have stopped leaking goals which has remained a problem since Ince left. I THINK YOU MEAN SINCE HUGHES LEFT SIMON. WE LEAKED PLENTY UNDER INCE!

Robinson for Friedel was an inspired piece of business by Ince, REALLY? FREIDEL WAS DESCRIBED AS THE BEST KEEPER IN THE PREM LAST NIGHT BY THE MOTD COMMENTATOR.

So overall with clear problems in midfield and up front, even though we currently stand five points away from the relegation zone,I still think we are only a hairs breadth or two or three poor results away from being in trouble.

AND IF WE WERE TO GET TWO OR THREE GOOD RESULTS WHERE WOULD THAT PUT US? TO BE MORE PRECISE EVEN WITH A GAME IN HAND AT BRUM WE CURRENTLY HAVE 50% MORE POINTS THAN AT THE SAME TIME LAST YEAR.

The main worry is that we sold £27m worth of players in the summer with relatively little of that being reinvested in the playing side. The surplus funds disappeared to pay off the Bank overdraft/the Trustees/operating losses depending on who you believe and predictably despite the huge trading surplus in summer we're told there's no money for January. In my view we only have Samba and maybe Robinson left on the books who would command a sizeable fee. What do we do when they've been sold off?

YOU SAID IT YOURSELF N'ZONZI, HOILLET AND POSS KALINIC MIGHT PROVIDE INCOME.

So to return to the original question: are we any better off than when Ince was here? I would say, yes we are in the sense that we are now defending far better than when he was here, and our points tally is therefore slightly healthier but looking at the overall picture we are no better off or even weaker in terms of playing personnel.

GULP!

The need for fresh investment and direction is now critical ....

CAN YOU DEFINE THE TERM 'INVESTMENT'? IT APPEARS TO MEAN SOMETHING FAR DIFFERENT IN FOOTBALL THAN IN THE DICTIONARY...... JUST ASK FAT ASHLEY, GUYDAMAK AND A SCATTERING OF 'INVESTORS' IN THE US AND ICELAND.

QUESTION FOR YOU SIMON IF THERE WAS ANY EASY MONEY TO BE MADE OUT OF FOOTBALL DO YOU NOT THINK THAT THE WALKER TRUST WOULD BE INVESTING BIG TIME? REM SUGAR'S 'PRUNE JUICE' COMMENTS? [b]"The money coming into the game [football] is incredible. But it is just the prune-juice effect - it comes in and goes out straight away. Agents run the game."[/b]

IT'S NOT PERFECT (AND NEVER WILL BE FOR MANY) BUT TAKE OFF THOSE BLACK GLASSES AND BE AWARE THAT IN THE TIME ALLARDYCE HAS BEEN HERE WE HAVE SEEN FAR MORE POSITIVES THAN NEGATIVES. AFTER THE DISASTER OF JOHN WILLIAMS APPOINTING INCE AND THE PAIR OF EM TAKING THE CLUB MASSIVELY BACKWARDS AT LEAST THE CLUB IS MOVING FORWARD NOW.