[Archived] Champions League

[Eddie]

Erm they beat the champions of the 3 other strongest leagues in europe. Im failing to see how they arn't the best.

Do you really believe that if they played Barcelona 10 times they'd come out with the best record? I don't, I doubt most would. I think I'd say the same if they played United, Chelsea and possibly even Arsenal and Real Madrid. That never really matters, I just don't think the Champions League makes a team the "best team in Europe". Cup competitions have a winner, they have a champion, but they don't crown the best team. The hard slog of a league sees the best team rise to the top, a cup competition can be decided by a single moment of luck or bad fortune. That doesn't mean that I don't think Inter don't deserve to win it, nor does it take anything away from their victory, but just like winning the FA Cup doesn't make you the best team in England, winning the Champions League isn't a true indicator of the best side in Europe.

It is just Eddie's reluctance to admit he was wrong about Mourinho

Now one of only three IN HISTORY to win it with two different clubs

When have I been wrong about Mourinho? I even picked them to knock out Barcelona. I think people get a bit too into his cult of personality and get a bit carried away, but he's a very good manager. As for that stat...well it's fairly limited by the fact that a very large percentage of the very best managers have not managed two sides capable of winning the champions league.

[neekoy]

Do you really believe that if they played Barcelona 10 times they'd come out with the best record? I don't, I doubt most would. I think I'd say the same if they played United, Chelsea and possibly even Arsenal and Real Madrid. That never really matters, I just don't think the Champions League makes a team the "best team in Europe". Cup competitions have a winner, they have a champion, but they don't crown the best team. The hard slog of a league sees the best team rise to the top, a cup competition can be decided by a single moment of luck or bad fortune. That doesn't mean that I don't think Inter don't deserve to win it, nor does it take anything away from their victory, but just like winning the FA Cup doesn't make you the best team in England, winning the Champions League isn't a true indicator of the best side in Europe.

When have I been wrong about Mourinho? I even picked them to knock out Barcelona. I think people get a bit too into his cult of personality and get a bit carried away, but he's a very good manager. As for that stat...well it's fairly limited by the fact that a very large percentage of the very best managers have not managed two sides capable of winning the champions league.

You said it was a stretch to call him one the greatest modern day managers of all time.

So without the value of hindsight, Porto was capable on paper? He also just took a team who are the biggest underperformers in world football to treble glory.

I will say it again.....Ancelotti, Van Gaal, Hiddink, Sir Bobby, Hitzfeld, Capello, Rijkaard, Benitez, del Bosque, Lippi, Cryuff, Trap.. other then Ferguson, who have you got?

Who are the VERY best Managers you speak of?

EDIT: I removed Wenger because he hasn't even won it once.

[jim mk2]

Mourinho is the epitome of anti-football, his teams are cynical and defensive and dull to watch. Inter's success wasn't about the revival of a great club, it was about Mourninho and his egocentric personality. Anyone who calls themselves "The Special One" must have a personality disorder. I don't have much time for Alex Ferguson but at least he shows some humility. Compared to great men such Stein, Shankly, Paisley (and yes, Ferguson), Mourinho is a pygmy.

[Silencio]

Inter's success wasn't about the revival of a great club, it was about Mourninho and his egocentric personality.

An egocentric personality he is, but he won the treble with Inter. He wins wherever he goes. He wins wherever he goes. Barcelona play great football and Mourinho tends not to, but he will have them very worried now he is going to Madrid...

[philipl]

I think the most valid comparisons are between Mourinho and Clough.

Only Mourinho hasn't got a Leeds and alcoholism on his track record.

[Hughesy]

Best keeper in the world?

Who?

Sorry wrong nation! lol

I was thinking Cesar was Argentinian for a minute!! Doh!

[MeanGreenMachine]

Just to add my two penneth in again…

Its not about what you think would happen Eddie, it’s about fact. Inter have beaten Barcelona (the champions of Spain), Chelsea (the champions of England) and Bayern Munich (the champions of Germany) on their way to winning it. What more can a team do to convince you otherwise?

And Mourinho is clearly on his way to being one of the true great managers, the guy wins everywhere he goes.

And on this anti football tosh, football is not all about attacking. Inter have a fantastic defensive side and I appreciate watching a brilliant side game as well as a brilliant attacking side. Maybe you can’t but that’s your problem, Bayern never looked like winning whereas every time Inter broke they looked like scoring.

I think going to Real Madrid will be a bad move as his ‘style’ doesn’t seem to fit the real philosophy of football, but I have no doubt given a season or two they will win pretty much everything.

[Rovermatt]

Eddie's proclivity for running against the grain on every issue notwithstanding, I think it's a farce to label Mourinho as anything other than a great coach. So what if he's up his own arse, plays defensive football and exudes arrogance? The man is winner, pure and simple. He's revived the fortunes of one of the world's great clubs (a club that has burned through managers, players and money for decades without even a sniff of the kind of success now being enjoyed) and he did the same at Chelsea. His all-consuming ego could be exactly what is required at the Bernabeu.

The Champions League has its flaws but it's still the leading football competition on earth and Mourinho has just won it again. No amount of over-argued, contrary points of view will change the fact that Inter dispensed with Barca rather handily (their defensive performance in Spain was surely borne of being a man short for most of the game) and played an absolute blinder at Stamford Bridge. The performance in the final was a quite brilliant example of counter-attacking football. For Rovers fans to be proclaiming another team as epitomising 'anti-football' is a bit rich, considering the fare served up to us this season.

[ihtd]

I am a massive fan of Mourinho. How can anyone accuse him of having a personality disorder for calling himself 'The Special One' is beyond me.

He is an extremely confident man and he portrays this confidence in such a flamboyant way that surely it must have a positive effect on his players. Just how many home league games has he lost in his last three jobs. I think it is something like 2. So what if his team's never play exciting football, do you think Arsenal fans would not swap their attractive for the sort of trophies Jose's so called 'dull' football has brought him in what is really a short time frame? His Porto team should never have won that CL title in 2004, not in a million years, yet they did knocking out Manchester United in the process. He is simply an amazing coach and man-manager. Transfer dealing have been a bit hit or miss and that would be my only gripe with him.

He appears to be such an ambitious man, he's won everything he can in Portugal so left, he won everything he could in England so left (well sacked, but he'd still done it all), he's now won everything in Italy and wants to go do the same in Spain. A man with that much ambition and drive really should be seen as an inspiration. He could easily stay at Inter and win Serie A again next year and get pestered by the media there, or take on one of the hardest jobs (albeit with near endless finances) in managing Real Madrid and become a hero there after being at Barca as a coach. If he takes the Real job, makes a real success of it, he surely has to go down as one of the greatest managers of all time, quite possibly the greatest (in modern football).

[Majiball]

As opposed to labeling him a defensive coach why not appreciate thats how Inter like to play. Are they not traditionally a counter attacking team?

Mourinho at Chelsea despite what some say in 04/05 had a goal difference of +57 more than any other club in the league. In 05/06 they had +50 again more than any other team. Even when they came second they had +40 second highest. It may not be all out attack but its hardly George graham type stuff either if you appreciate his career as a whole. +40 this year in serie A, 15 more than any other team, he certainly knows something about attacking in football.

I fully expect him to adapt yet again at Madrid and play a style more suited to what they play traditionally. I doubt it will be gung-ho but I also doubt they'll just sit back and protect the box hitting on the break.

Mourinho may come out in the press giving it the big one and making it all about himself, but perhaps there's method in his perceived madness. With all the attention always on him, his players get far less media pressure and are taken out of the spotlight meaning they can focus on the football and not the rumours and such. Build up to the Barca games I barely read anything about his players and "expectations" instead it was all focused on Jose? Ego maniac or a very clever psychologist and manager, I favour the later.

[Eddie]

You said it was a stretch to call him one the greatest modern day managers of all time.

So without the value of hindsight, Porto was capable on paper? He also just took a team who are the biggest underperformers in world football to treble glory.

I will say it again.....Ancelotti, Van Gaal, Hiddink, Sir Bobby, Hitzfeld, Capello, Rijkaard, Benitez, del Bosque, Lippi, Cryuff, Trap.. other then Ferguson, who have you got?

Who are the VERY best Managers you speak of?

EDIT: I removed Wenger because he hasn't even won it once.

Well, for one I think his achievements this season have probably pushed him onto that list, but up until this season his record was essentially reliant on the Porto Champions League.

Porto were capable because they are in the champions league every season and generally have, and certainly at the time had, a talented bunch of players. It is still a wonderful achievement and one that may not be matched for a while (although to slightly put it in context they played Monaco in the final and it is in many respects more surprising to see Monaco in the final than to see Porto winning it).

Just to add my two penneth in again…

Its not about what you think would happen Eddie, it’s about fact. Inter have beaten Barcelona (the champions of Spain), Chelsea (the champions of England) and Bayern Munich (the champions of Germany) on their way to winning it. What more can a team do to convince you otherwise?

And Mourinho is clearly on his way to being one of the true great managers, the guy wins everywhere he goes.

And on this anti football tosh, football is not all about attacking. Inter have a fantastic defensive side and I appreciate watching a brilliant side game as well as a brilliant attacking side. Maybe you can’t but that’s your problem, Bayern never looked like winning whereas every time Inter broke they looked like scoring.

I think going to Real Madrid will be a bad move as his ‘style’ doesn’t seem to fit the real philosophy of football, but I have no doubt given a season or two they will win pretty much everything.

I haven't spoken at all about anti-football, so I won't discuss that. For me a team can play however is necessary to win and so long as the results are there no one can complain. Inter won their treble this season, so you can't really question the methods.

Having said that, it is about what I think would happen. I'm expressing my opinion and engaging in a debate. I'm not doing anything more than that and I'm not proclaiming that my opinion on the best team in Europe debate is a fact. It always amazes me that internet messageboards seem to struggle with the concept of an opinion.

Eddie's proclivity for running against the grain on every issue notwithstanding, I think it's a farce to label Mourinho as anything other than a great coach.

Once again I seem to be having people arguing with me over things that I haven't said. I'm not arguing that he isn't a great coach and I don't really care about the football that they played, my point was just regarding the champions league and whether or not winning it makes a team the best in Europe.

This has nothing to do with me going against the grain, I don't think enough of anyone single opinion on this messageboard to have it dictate what I will believe.

If someone disagree's with me on the best team in Europe thing that's totally fine by me. I can understand why someone would think Inter are the best side in Europe this season as they've had a fantastic year, but I don't. I don't judge the best by the cups they win (Liverpool weren't the best when they won it, Greece weren't the best international side in Europe when they won it, etc) and in my opinion I think there are a few teams that would beat them the majority of the time if they played.

[jim mk2]

I think the most valid comparisons are between Mourinho and Clough.

Both have / had huge egos but Cloughie's teams played the much better football. Clough could be said to have invented the cult of the manager though (amazingly, players were more important than managers in years gone by) for which no one is grateful.

[bellamy11]

Mourinho may come out in the press giving it the big one and making it all about himself, but perhaps there's method in his perceived madness. With all the attention always on him, his players get far less media pressure and are taken out of the spotlight meaning they can focus on the football and not the rumours and such. Build up to the Barca games I barely read anything about his players and "expectations" instead it was all focused on Jose? Ego maniac or a very clever psychologist and manager, I favour the later.

I completely agree with this, and it isn't made enough of. Of course only Mourinho will really know whether or not this is true but it certainly is effective. With the intense scrutiny of players that goes on these days, anything that can save them from added pressure is a Godsend. Mourinho is excellent at doing just that, while still performing himself to his own high standards. I think if Mourinho had been manager of Chelsea this season he would have gone out of his way to get himself in the media spotlight when the Terry story broke in order to deflect some of it away from his captain.

[Rovermatt]

I haven't spoken at all about anti-football, so I won't discuss that.

Once again I seem to be having people arguing with me over things that I haven't said. I'm not arguing that he isn't

Apologies if I was unclear, I was referring to your characterisation of the Champions League and Inter's victory in it. The point about Mourinho was a separate one. In any case I never said you spoke about 'anti-football'. I believe that was Jim.

Incidentally, what barometer would you use to gauge Europe's leading team?

[Eddie]

Just judge teams based on what I see from their league and cup performances and do a completely subjective assessment of who I think the best team is. It's totally unscientific and I can completely understand people not agreeing with me. Barcelona were the best team in Europe for me this season, with Chelsea second.

[speeeeeeedie]

Just judge teams based on what I see from their league and cup performances and do a completely subjective assessment of who I think the best team is. It's totally unscientific and I can completely understand people not agreeing with me. Barcelona were the best team in Europe for me this season, with Chelsea second.

The first 2 sentences read like you are deliberatley saying the last one to cause an argument.

You're way out on this one.

[Eddie]

No, I'd already expressed the last sentence earlier. I've made my point really and seeing as it is a subjective discussion (unless you simply use the champions league as the decider) then there isn't much point in discussing it any further.

[imy9]

Mourinho IMO opinion is the best manager in the world and already one of the greats of all time.

I watch a Mourinho team for the manager rather than the players, that is a first for me. He is charismatic, engaging and entertaining.

Against Chelsea and Barcelona Inter were the under dogs and it was inspiring watching a side on sheer hard work get through- a great message to send to kids IMO.

As for the claim that his sides are dull, I would suggest that the Chelsea team in Year 1 and half of year 2 played with two wingers in Duff and Robben and were spanking teams 4-0 on a regular basis (saying that Inter have scored 99 goals this season, hardly defensive), the time to judge his style of play will be after year with Real, where I am confident the players will play expansive football.

[dazmaz]

The first 2 sentences read like you are deliberatley saying the last one to cause an argument.

You're way out on this one.

I haven't read all the previous posts (and to be fair I have much better things to do than read god knows how many posts from people ripping into each other like little children)

But i will say its posts like the one I have quoted that make this board so darn depressing at times, Eddie is purely expressing his view. it is neither fact or something you must think, just his own opinion. if you and the others trying to pick a fight cant grasp that then you are following the wrong sport and shouldn't be posting on a forum!

[Eddie]

Mourinho IMO opinion is the best manager in the world and already one of the greats of all time.

Really? You'd put him above some of the managers who have produced great sides over the past 10/20/30 years? He's done a fantastic job and is one of the best around at the moment, but I don't see what separates him from, or even puts him on a par with (yet), some of the other greats.

[Tris]

Eddie - do you think Blackpool deserve their place in the Premier League?

[Eddie]

Of course, this discussion has never been about deserving. I made the point of specifically stating that Inter deserved to win the cup and that Bayern deserved their place in my final...my point was that winning it doesn't make them the best team in Europe.

[imy9]

Really? You'd put him above some of the managers who have produced great sides over the past 10/20/30 years? He's done a fantastic job and is one of the best around at the moment, but I don't see what separates him from, or even puts him on a par with (yet), some of the other greats.

Seven years 14 trophies with three different teams in three different leagues at 47 is unheard of,using Fergy as a starting point he has won 27? and is 70, Jose needs 13 trophies to level at the current speed he'll get there by 55!

Also winning the CL with two different clubs puts him in an elite club, but that is just my opinion.

[Eddie]

Of course, but my point about the wins with different clubs is that a lot of other managers haven't had that chance. Also, in Porto, Chelsea and Inter he's been handed two very big jobs and clubs who you would expect to win things with.

[speeeeeeedie]

I haven't read all the previous posts (and to be fair I have much better things to do than read god knows how many posts from people ripping into each other like little children)

But i will say its posts like the one I have quoted that make this board so darn depressing at times, Eddie is purely expressing his view. it is neither fact or something you must think, just his own opinion. if you and the others trying to pick a fight cant grasp that then you are following the wrong sport and shouldn't be posting on a forum!

Daz, I've made 2 posts since the game finished. 1 saying Inter are the best team in Euorpe, the other is quoted above. I am merely expressing that Eddie is out on his own on this one. My opinion is different, I'm not trying to start an argument with him. I've read enough of his posts to know that he'll go on for days if I keep going.

If you think my post is depressing, keep away from the board every time we lose a game.