[Archived] Winning V Profit

[ABBEY]

I wonder what is the official line for ANY manager we would have under venkys ? Are they told winning doesn't matter? Alls that matters is making money on players?. If you blag promotion all well & good or don't get promotion as we (V's) as owners will be under scrutiny again ?

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

It is a bizarre situation! You want a club that can produce young players to sell on at a profit. It's what 98% of clubs need to do. Yet, as a business model, it's pointless making x million on players when you are losing xx million by not achieving promotion.

They should be going all out to get in the prem so we can 'wash our face' financially...then work on the production line (whilst surviving in the league).

Absolutely bonkers decision making.

[davulsukur]

They should go hand in hand. If your winning games and playing well, other clubs will look at your players.

If the owners want to take money out of this club, it can only realistically be achieved if we are in the premier league.

[mustard]

Raya starts. Is it because he's a better keeper than Steele? Or is it because his value will go up with performances? Hanley ahead of Kilgallon? Why? It's alll about VALU£$!

[thenodrog]

Raya starts. Is it because he's a better keeper than Steele? Or is it because his value will go up with performances? Hanley ahead of Kilgallon? Why? It's alll about VALU£$!

Wrong mustard.... your argument is all about opinions.

[mustard]

Wrong mustard.... your argument is all about opinions.

Wrong Gordon. If it's all about opinions then you cannot categorically state I'm wrong.

I'll remember to put an "IMO" at the end next time.

[Parsonblue]

I think it's always been a delicate balancing act for a club like the Rovers. When we were fighting for the title with a number of other clubs we sold Fred Pickering to Everton, one of our rivals at the time, because the cash was too good to turn down. We ended up 7th and Everton 3rd. It's not an easy judgement to make for either manager or Board. Every player has a price and I think most of the managers we have had over the years have accepted this. Clubs like the Rovers have survived and prospered by developing players or buying them cheap and then selling to realise as much profit as possible. Over the years we have all seen a long line of such players come and go so it is nothing new. Of course, for the supporters it's pretty annoying to say the least, particularly when you watch a youngster learn his trade, make mistakes and then develop into a good player only be sold to the highest bidder. It has been hugely frustrating over the years to watch many talented players hone their skills at Ewood and then move on to spend their prime years elsewhere.

[K-Hod]

It's a results business.

*END*

[jim mk2]

It has been hugely frustrating over the years to watch many talented players hone their skills at Ewood and then move on to spend their prime years elsewhere.

Happens to every club. Shearer, Sutton, and virtually the whole championship team were developed by other clubs but spent their best years with us. Players move and always have done. It's annoying but it's the nature of the business.

[thenodrog]

Wrong Gordon. If it's all about opinions then you cannot categorically state I'm wrong.

I'll remember to put an "IMO" at the end next time.

That's nonsensical. I made the comment about your judgement of the the quality of those players which you mentioned. Personally I'd have preferred Steele on sat but I rate Hanley in front of Kilgallon. Kilgallon probably shades it in positional sense but I feel Hanley wins more challenges and distributes the ball better. BOTH would be better with a stronger full left back next to them.

[mustard]

I think it's always been a delicate balancing act for a club like the Rovers. When we were fighting for the title with a number of other clubs we sold Fred Pickering to Everton, one of our rivals at the time, because the cash was too good to turn down. We ended up 7th and Everton 3rd. It's not an easy judgement to make for either manager or Board. Every player has a price and I think most of the managers we have had over the years have accepted this. Clubs like the Rovers have survived and prospered by developing players or buying them cheap and then selling to realise as much profit as possible. Over the years we have all seen a long line of such players come and go so it is nothing new. Of course, for the supporters it's pretty annoying to say the least, particularly when you watch a youngster learn his trade, make mistakes and then develop into a good player only be sold to the highest bidder. It has been hugely frustrating over the years to watch many talented players hone their skills at Ewood and then move on to spend their prime years elsewhere.

The worry is Parson, that the team is being picked based on who can garner future income from their value increasing, as opposed to who will give us the best chance of a good performance/result. It almost feels crazy to suggest the players aren't being picked on merit, but that's certainly how it seems.

Kilgallon, IMO, proved last season he was our number one CB. Bowyer somehow doesn't see it this way, and as accomplished as Duffy and Hanley were for the most part. Duffy falls asleep for the first goal and neither are anywhere near the second man for his cheated goal. These lapses in concentration tend to prove costly and they did so on Saturday.

As for Raya, I don't think he looked as confident as you made out in your match report. He plucked a few balls out of the air very well, but in other aspects he was behind Steele IMO. I think he could have done better with the second goal and his kicking was suspect. Fine margins, but I feel Steele would have contributed to a sounder team performance. Raya undoubtedly has huge potential but I think Bowyer is mixing it up for the sake of it and I worry that the position will get swapped around a good few times before the season is up.

I'd like to see youth given a chance, but the goalkeeping position is a precarious position to mess with. Jake Kean faltered under pressure after a few mistakes, despite looking very good at the beginning of his first team career. I worry the same could happen to Raya, and do think Steele seems ahead of him at the moment. I think there are spaces in midfield where a youngster (Tomlinson, Mahoney, Lenihan, etc) could step up to the plate and I'd like to see it happen.

[thenodrog]

Happens to every club. Shearer, Sutton, and virtually the whole championship team were developed by other clubs but spent their best years with us. Players move and always have done. It's annoying but it's the nature of the business.

Driving through Breightmet the other day and there's a big poster celebrating 25 years of Prem football on SKY. Big picture of Shearer........... in the black and white stripes that he won sweet FA in!

[K-Hod]

It was such a delight to see a central midfielder in Guthrie on Saturday not afraid of the ball, who got his head up and looked for a forward pass!

Lowe has this infuriating tendency to knock 5 yard balls to whoever's in the vicinity blindly when there are much better options on.

Driving through Breightmet the other day and there's a big poster celebrating 25 years of Prem football on SKY. Big picture of Shearer........... in the black and white stripes that he won sweet FA in!

Sky seem very keen to erase us from PL History judging by their advertising campaign you mention there. Strange as we nearly spent 20 seasons in there!

[mustard]

That's nonsensical. I made the comment about your judgement of the the quality of those players which you mentioned. Personally I'd have preferred Steele on sat but I rate Hanley in front of Kilgallon. Kilgallon probably shades it in positional sense but I feel Hanley wins more challenges and distributes the ball better. BOTH would be better with a stronger full left back next to them.

How on earth is it nonsensical? I stated an opinion (without the 'IMO'). You said it's wrong. No Gord, it's wrong in your opinion. Hanley might be being picked because GB rates him ahead of Kilgallon but who's to say there aren't other factors at play, including player values? Neither of us know for sure, do we?

Needless bickering aside, I think the positioning of both Hanley and Duffy leave a lot to be desired. Duffy for the first goal, both of them for the second. Forgetting the hand of god, our centre backs were nowhere near the forward. They were like statues. As for Raya being picked ahead of Steele, I don't know what it is. Bowyer trying to keep Raya happy? Raise his value? I don't know. Poor decision though, IMO. I imagine Steele isn't best pleased, regardless.

[den]

I think it's always been a delicate balancing act for a club like the Rovers. When we were fighting for the title with a number of other clubs we sold Fred Pickering to Everton, one of our rivals at the time, because the cash was too good to turn down. We ended up 7th and Everton 3rd. It's not an easy judgement to make for either manager or Board. Every player has a price and I think most of the managers we have had over the years have accepted this. Clubs like the Rovers have survived and prospered by developing players or buying them cheap and then selling to realise as much profit as possible. Over the years we have all seen a long line of such players come and go so it is nothing new. Of course, for the supporters it's pretty annoying to say the least, particularly when you watch a youngster learn his trade, make mistakes and then develop into a good player only be sold to the highest bidder. It has been hugely frustrating over the years to watch many talented players hone their skills at Ewood and then move on to spend their prime years elsewhere.

This is nothing like what happened then Parson. We're employing a coach with the primary object of making money on players. Yes, I've no doubt results are still important, but the focus is not as it should be. Back then we employed managers with the priority being results. Fred Pickering was sold because the club was skint.

[Parsonblue]

To be honest mustard, I think decision with regard to the goalkeeping position has be made based on pre-season matches and pre-season training. Raya has looked good and got the nod. However, I think it's a fine line between him and Steele at the moment although long term I've always thought Raya would become our first choice 'keeper from the time he was in the Under-18's.

Like you, I would go with Kilgallon, whilst admitting that he has his faults there is no doubting that he was excellent during the second part of last season. Hanley and Duffy are clearly younger and if the coaching staff believe they may be developed to form a long term partnership then I can see why they get the nod. I'm reminded of when we signed Keeley and he walked into the team and was dreadful yet remained in the team whilst Hawkins and Waddington had to fight it out with Faz for the other spot - indeed Faz ended up a full-back for awhile to accommodate Keeley. Of course, Glenn turned out to be an outstanding centre-half once he matured and Kendall got the very best out of him. It's a game of opinions but the manager, at the end of the day, is the only opinion that really counts I suppose. However, I agree it's frustrating because I really haven't seen Hanley or Duffy play well together. Each has had good games in their own right but not as a partnership. I'm a great believer in having one old head and one youngster as your centre-back pairing. Having said all that I believe that Lenihan could develop into an outstanding centre-half and be far better than any that we have at present.

I would agree that Tomlinson looks a more than decent prospect but I can understand why they are being careful with him. He has jumped from Under-18's - which he is still able to play for - to the first team without really appearing in the Under-21's. However, I would certainly like to see him on the bench throughout the season. O'Sullivan has to make the breakthrough this season or be released it's as simple as that for me.

[Parsonblue]

This is nothing like what happened then Parson. We're employing a coach with the primary object of making money on players. Yes, I've no doubt results are still important, but the focus is not as it should be. Back then we employed managers with the priority being results. Fred Pickering was sold because the club was skint.

Fred went to Everton because after he'd been on international duty he wanted to be paid more - understandably so - and the Rovers wouldn't meet his demands but Everton would and so he was sold because Everton offered a huge fee for him. I totally disagree with your theory that we are employing a coach with the object of making money on players. He is employed as a manager with the object of trying to keep the club competitive whilst trying to balance the books - a virtually impossible task and one that is clearly going to make him unpopular in terms of players leaving. Whoever comes in after him will no doubt be given the same brief - the same brief that so many of our managers have had in the past. The likes of Furphy, Lee, Smith, Kendall, Saxton etc all did it with a fair amount of success but without getting us back in the top flight.

[Blueandwhitemike]

Is it me or has GB gone into overdrive recently on the values thing? He seems to be repeating it every chance he gets and bigging himself up.

I don't have a problem with having to sell players occasional but with GB going on about it all the time it gets hard not to think he's picking the team along those lines too.

Raya is very young for a keeper, and although I think it likely he is the one at the club who will have the best career is it really time for him to be no.1? Has Steele been poor? Ray was fine in preseason from what I saw but not outstanding. I would have thought it would have made more sense to promote him to no.2 and play him in the cup. I think that makes more sense but I like Raya.

Duffy playing ahead of Kilgallon doesn't make much sense to me either and again makes me think of sell on values etc

[mustard]

To be honest mustard, I think decision with regard to the goalkeeping position has be made based on pre-season matches and pre-season training. Raya has looked good and got the nod. However, I think it's a fine line between him and Steele at the moment although long term I've always thought Raya would become our first choice 'keeper from the time he was in the Under-18's.

Like you, I would go with Kilgallon, whilst admitting that he has his faults there is no doubting that he was excellent during the second part of last season. Hanley and Duffy are clearly younger and if the coaching staff believe they may be developed to form a long term partnership then I can see why they get the nod. I'm reminded of when we signed Keeley and he walked into the team and was dreadful yet remained in the team whilst Hawkins and Waddington had to fight it out with Faz for the other spot - indeed Faz ended up a full-back for awhile to accommodate Keeley. Of course, Glenn turned out to be an outstanding centre-half once he matured and Kendall got the very best out of him. It's a game of opinions but the manager, at the end of the day, is the only opinion that really counts I suppose. However, I agree it's frustrating because I really haven't seen Hanley or Duffy play well together. Each has had good games in their own right but not as a partnership. I'm a great believer in having one old head and one youngster as your centre-back pairing. Having said all that I believe that Lenihan could develop into an outstanding centre-half and be far better than any that we have at present.

I would agree that Tomlinson looks a more than decent prospect but I can understand why they are being careful with him. He has jumped from Under-18's - which he is still able to play for - to the first team without really appearing in the Under-21's. However, I would certainly like to see him on the bench throughout the season. O'Sullivan has to make the breakthrough this season or be released it's as simple as that for me.

After Raya's mistake vs Accrington I made my mind up on who should start this season in goal. Even though he saved the penalty, I knew a lapse such as that could prove costly in a League game. The worry is he makes one of the same sort and struggles to recover. Regardless of what happens, I just hope that first choice keeper is decided soon and they are persevered with (providing there isn't a huge need to change). If we end up swapping between the two here and there it could severely disrupt the team. Personally, I'd stick to Steele for this season.

Unfortunately, the scenario you talk about with Keeley was before my time so I can not relate! Kilgallon does have his faults. His distribution irks me a great deal, but when it comes to the bread and butter of defending he gets it right, whilst Duffy and Hanley are more prone to nod off. None of our CB's have impressed me with their distribution really (since Baptiste) but Hanley looked the more accomplished in that sense on Saturday. As we both said, an old head might keep the other in check, but the two of them together has a mistake between them.

I was very impressed with Tomlinson vs Wigan, though can not say I've seen much else of him. Perhaps it's because I've been so disappointed with all of our CMs over the last couple of years that I'd love to see him thrown in there. Certainly felt he offered something different to what we've already got. Was always hungry to get on the ball and keen to get forward. Seemed pretty assured defensively as well and wasn't afraid to get stuck in which made a pleasant change.

After Cairney's departure and Marshall's performance, there's no reason O'Sullivan can't cement the attacking mid position, if he's got the goods. He's at an age now he should be breaking through. Now or never really. As for Lenihan, I thought he was great at CB, yet Hasselbaink expressed surprise at him playing at the back, stating his best position is certainly defensive midfield. If he's better in midfield than he is at centre half then I'd like to see him get some game time, as we're lacking a bit of bite in the middle. Whether it is the personnel or the tactics/gameplan I don't know. Just feel we are too leaky through the middle and have been for a while. Not much closing down and battling but a lot of standing off. Very frustrating.

[den]

Fred went to Everton because after he'd been on international duty he wanted to be paid more - understandably so - and the Rovers wouldn't meet his demands but Everton would and so he was sold because Everton offered a huge fee for him. I totally disagree with your theory that we are employing a coach with the object of making money on players. He is employed as a manager with the object of trying to keep the club competitive whilst trying to balance the books - a virtually impossible task and one that is clearly going to make him unpopular in terms of players leaving. Whoever comes in after him will no doubt be given the same brief - the same brief that so many of our managers have had in the past. The likes of Furphy, Lee, Smith, Kendall, Saxton etc all did it with a fair amount of success but without getting us back in the top flight.

Hes doing the same job that Kean was employed to do. The clue is in the word "coach". If the priority was results, then they wouldn't have sacked Allardyce. Kean was employed to make use of his coaching skills and to develop players provided by "an agent". Why would they go that way if results were the priority? Why use a coach rather than a manager - it could only be profit. Bowyer has virtually said that himself. He only talks about how much a player is worth, not ever about results.

Players should be developed at the academy, in the reserves or the U21s. A manager should be aiming at one thing - winning games whichever way. The focus here, - from the owners is all wrong IMO.

[tomphil]

Raya is what 19 years old ? There is absolutely no need whatsoever to rush him into the team particularly when Steele has proved capable. If they are playing him just to keep him happy or at the club then that just shows how weak the management side of things is anyway.

It's obvious under the current climate and listening to what get's repeatedly said from the manager that they are just fast tracking him to get his value up. If he performs eye-catchingly well between now and the end of the season or even January then the first decent bid that comes in he'll be through the door.

Production line first, results second.

[den]

Fred went to Everton because after he'd been on international duty he wanted to be paid more - understandably so - and the Rovers wouldn't meet his demands but Everton would and so he was sold because Everton offered a huge fee for him. I totally disagree with your theory that we are employing a coach with the object of making money on players. He is employed as a manager with the object of trying to keep the club competitive whilst trying to balance the books - a virtually impossible task and one that is clearly going to make him unpopular in terms of players leaving. Whoever comes in after him will no doubt be given the same brief - the same brief that so many of our managers have had in the past. The likes of Furphy, Lee, Smith, Kendall, Saxton etc all did it with a fair amount of success but without getting us back in the top flight.

I'm hoping the next man will be given the task of winning as many games as possible. There's always a restriction on the finances - even when we were in the PL the managers had to work within a budget. Allardyce got us into the top half of the PL with a negative spend of around £30m if I remember correctly. But that isn't what we're talking about is it Parson. Allardyce would have been given the task of getting results - full stop. What we're seeing here is someone being appointed more for their abilities - or otherwise - of developing individuals. Note the priority is individuals! If they want to focus 100% on results then they need an experienced manager, rather than a coach - and they need to drop this obsession with %age markups on players.

I've been around Ewood for a long time - and even though I don't get down as often as I did, I 100% know what it takes to get this club out of this league. It's not easy, but we need focus on the same objective from the owners and from the best manager we can possibly attract.

[Stuart]

Professional football clubs in 2015 exist because of the prize money on offer in the sports entertainment industry. This prize money is provided by football supporters. Not sponsors, not the PL, not the FA but ordinary folk who go on the terraces or who pay to watch on TV, spectators who are willing to pay for the privilege of seeing the sport played at a level in excess of that which they could watch in a public park.

They exist in particular towns and cities for historical and geographic/political reasons.

These spectators are of two sorts: the ones who followed the club from a distant past, through generations, long before the television prize money became so obscene, and ones who have been attracted by the media attention and marketing of the PL brand by Sky TV.

These spectators are what turn a football club from a business enterprise into a community asset due to a mixture of pride, jingoism and expectation. Closely followed by tradition.

These spectators are a problem for football clubs because they can't exist without each other. This means that the club must attempt to meet the expectations of their spectators/fans or the will desert the club in large quantities. This expectation is that the club, their club, will compete.

If the club start to treat the club like a business at the expense of being competitive then the will lose support from the fans. This is a very slippery slope.