Squad Review

[JCRovers]

1 minute ago, KentExile said:

If he wasn't in close proximity to goals conceded then he would be a forward 😉 

Haha, good one :)

[JCRovers]

3 minutes ago, Forever Blue said:

He’s clearly not lost without Batth as he was excellent in his first season at the club, and excellent at Cov. 
 

In the last few moths he’s started to regain  that form and looks a lot sharper. Sometimes injuries and loss of confidence have a huge impact. It’s silly to write him off. 

Fair enough, I respect your take on him. For my part, I've seen enough and would like to bring another central defender in during the summer window.

[Exiled_Rover]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I dont really get why a left footed centre back is high on the agenda.

We play a back 4 and assuming Batth signs, we have him and Hyam plus Carter. Wharton wouldnt have much pressure on him as he would just be taking Sanderson's place in the squad.

Not wasting resources on one could allow us to get a competent player as opposed to the easy option of signing Forshaw and/or Hedges.

I'm not sure why everyone is obsessed with the CB being left footed.

Can he pass the ball accurately 15-20 yards to a teammate? Great, I don't care what foot he does it with. 

[Exiled_Rover]

2 hours ago, RoverDom said:

Was it 7 youth players to make up next seasons 25 man squad? If we're planning on going into next season with 18 first teamers we need to clear out all the sick notes first. 

That was Broughton's plan - and it makes sense on our budget, but yeah you can't have any passengers in that 18. 

Hedges, Forshaw, Buckley, JRC et al would have to go. 

[Exiled_Rover]

14 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I don't understand why Carter's reputation has remained exactly the same after the last 2 years when his body keeps breaking down but even when he has put a run of games together, he has looked shaky.

Hyam and Carter both were really strong together in Hyam's first season when Hyam won player of the season, and that wasn't next to an experienced defender, although in the main he clearly does benefit from one.

I just find it strange how off the back of a season where I think Hyam has been good and has played every minute in a team with the 6th best defensive record in the league, with I think 16 clean sheets, it seems to have only accelerated the opinion that he needs moving on and Carter needs to be kept and built around. (Not that I am saying we should get rid of either, I would keep both)

I can only conclude that its his lack of popularity that causes this perception. There was the meeting where he apparently said that the players didn't like the booing. There was also apparently an altercation or two with supporters around that time.

One performance can also stick in fans minds, and he had an absolute shocker at Bristol City away. Sometimes its difficult to recover in terms of reputation from that. Armstrong had a game ironically at the same place where he had loads of shots and developed a reputation of being greedy. He then went on to score 28 goals in a season but I never felt that he was rated or popular in line with how important he was to us.

Carter's injuries have come at the wrong time for him and the club. He was really pushing on for a PL bid - now we'll keep hold of him, I think he's missed his window. 

[joey_big_nose]

18 hours ago, JCRovers said:

Funny how some on here are defending Hyam so I took some time to research the goals we've been conceding during the second half of this season and where the defensive errors lie:

Hyam (8 mistakes leading to goal). Points cost: 8

vs Sheffield Utd. 3/5
failed to pick up Ahmedhodzic at the back post for 1-1 (final result).

vs Cardiff 15/3
#1 doesn't follow his man when running back to the box, forcing Carter to cover near post and JRC being in a 1 v 2 situation at the back post for 0-1. 
#2 failed to pick up the movement of Meite, allowing the striker to ghost behind and time his header ahead of him for 1-2 (final result).

vs Stoke 12/3
misplaced pass in a dangerous area, leading to a transition for 0-1 (final result).

vs Swansea 22/2
#1 despite having a five-yard advantage, he was still beaten for pace in the transition (1 v 1) and couldn't prevent Peart-Harris from scoring for 0-2.
#2 failure to scan the pitch for threats, allowing plenty of space for Cullen inside the box to make it 0-3.

vs Coventry 21/1
fails to cut off passing angle/ pick up marking as Thomas-Asante score from a tap-in for 0-2 (final result).

vs Leeds 1/1
caused the penalty for 0-1 with a sliding tackle inside the box. 

Ribeiro (4 mistakes leading to goal). Points cost: 2

vs Watford 26/4
part of a zonal marking system? 
tried to reach the ball at far post by backing into the situation but got easily beaten in the air as Pollock timed it way better for 0-1.

vs Millwall 18/4
failed to prevent Ivanovic from getting away a shot inside the six-yard box for 1-1.

vs Sheffield Wed. 8/4
beaten easily in the air from a floating corner, resulting in a simple tap-in at the opposite post for 0-1.

vs Derby 8/3
caught way out of position, forcing Hyam to close down opponent on the left flank and leave central defence exposed for 0-2. 
took a free kick in offensive area moments before but didn't manage to run back. poor tactical setup?

Pears (2 mistakes leading to goal). Points cost: 1

vs Derby 8/3
passively stands at the goal line instead of having a more forward position at the free kick, 
resulting in him reacting too late for the second ball when trying to come out and punch. Subsequently misses the punch which leads to an open goal for 0-1.

vs Preston 31/1
failed to cover near post as Potts scored a consolation goal at the very end. 

JRC (2 mistakes leading to goal). Points cost: 0

vs Middlesbrough 4/4
tried but failed to intercept the pass being the last man in defence, leading to a 1 v 1 against goalie and an easy goal for 0-1.

vs Coventry 21/1
easily beaten in the air as Simms heads it in from close range for 0-1.

Tronstad (2 mistakes leading to goal). Points cost: 1. I'm discounting the Norwich game since they were down to ten men.

vs Norwich 1/3
failure to close down Crnac just inside the penalty box for 0-1. Rovers played with ten men at that point.

vs Burnley 4/1
failed to pick up the run from Flemming who heads it in for 0-1 from close range (final result) 

Hedges (1 mistake leading to goal). Points cost: 0

vs Swansea 22/2
failure to prevent Vipotnik from taking a shot inside the six-yard box for 0-1. Pears slow to react as the ball barely had any speed.

Carter (1 mistake leading to goal). Points cost: 1

vs Portsmouth 29/3
failure to follow Murphy as he plays one-two's with a teammate to get through on goal for 0-1 (final result).

Beck (1 mistake leading to goal). Points cost: 0

vs QPR 4/2
a bit unfair to be solely blamed since he was mismatched against Frey for 0-1 (height disadvantage). 
also, no player marking the near post despite free kick being close to the corner flag.

ACD & Buckley (1 mistake each leading to goal). Points cost: 1

vs QPR 4/2
ACD fails to pick up the run at the far edge of box, allowing a free header into the six-yard area. Scramble ensues before Colback scores from just outside the box for 1-2 (final result). Buckley failing to see Colback's run behind him.

Sanderson (1 mistake leading to goal). Points cost: 1

vs Bristol City 25/1
caught sleeping as Wells ran in behind before taking a deflected shot for 1-2 (final result).

---

As you can see, Hyam is by far the worst offender when it comes to critical defensive errors (i.e. errors that directly leads to goals and dropped points). Second worst is Ribeiro.

Hyam is a poor passer, doesn't pick up marking / scan the pitch for dangerous movements and lacks severely in pace. A complete liability in my opinion which has been shown time and time again this season, especially when Batth doesn't play alongside him.

crikey that is some top notch research...  must have taken you ages! Are you saying that Baath has not made a mistake that led to a goal all second half of season? I know he was injured but that's some going. 

Still Hyam to me is one of the best defenders we have had in recent years. I would be significantly less confident if we had Sanderson or Wharton instead. Carter is more debateable and has real quality, but is very injury prone

We've got so much recruitment to do the last thing we need is to do is try and replace players it is not critical to do so (Hyam, Gueye etc). Push them down to the bench by bringing in better first team players by all means, but we are not going to be signing the quantity of players to replace them on top of everyone else.

Edited yesterday at 13:04 by joey_big_nose

[chaddyrovers]

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I dont really get why a left footed centre back is high on the agenda.

We play a back 4 and assuming Batth signs, we have him and Hyam plus Carter. Wharton wouldnt have much pressure on him as he would just be taking Sanderson's place in the squad.

Not wasting resources on one could allow us to get a competent player as opposed to the easy option of signing Forshaw and/or Hedges.

What happened if Carter and Hyam have injures early next season, then that leaves you with 2 centre backs for a period of time with no chance of going to back 5 or changing the team. 

Also will Wharton be 100% by pre season. 

Also why not planned for the season after when Batth will move on and possible others like Carter or Hyam. 

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

What happened if Carter and Hyam have injures early next season, then that leaves you with 2 centre backs for a period of time with no chance of going to back 5 or changing the team. 

Also will Wharton be 100% by pre season. 

Also why not planned for the season after when Batth will move on and possible others like Carter or Hyam. 

It would be a nice extra. But we need a number of other positions far more urgently. If its a left centre back or upgrades on sub par players (Hedges, Forshaw etc) then I would choose the latter.

We play a back 4, 4 centre backs for 2 places is about right.

[JCRovers]

1 hour ago, joey_big_nose said:

crikey that is some top notch research...  must have taken you ages! Are you saying that Baath has not made a mistake that led to a goal all second half of season? I know he was injured but that's some going. 

Still Hyam to me is one of the best defenders we have had in recent years. I would be significantly less confident if we had Sanderson or Wharton instead. Carter is more debateable and has real quality, but is very injury prone

We've got so much recruitment to do the last thing we need is to do is try and replace players it is not critical to do so (Hyam, Gueye etc). Push them down to the bench by bringing in better first team players by all means, but we are not going to be signing the quantity of players to replace them on top of everyone else.

Of course everyone can make mistakes, including Batth. But Hyam seems to be making them more often which I've tried to point out, hence my criticism towards him. We conceded 48 goals this season, a massive improvement on last season's 74. Which kinda goes to show the remarkable job Eustace did given the limited budget and squad at disposal.

The signing of Batth on a free proved to be a really good one:

Games played: 35

Wins: 15
Draws: 6
Losses: 14

Goal difference: 38-33
Number of clean sheets: 13 (37 % of all matches)
Average goals conceded per game: 0,94

Games not played: 11

Wins: 4
Draws: 3
Losses: 4

Goal difference: 15-15
Number of clean sheets: 2 (18 % of all matches)
Average goals conceded per game: 1,36
 

Hyam was part of the defence that conceded 74 goals last season. You can argue loss of form, injuries, tactics etc. as reasons behind it, but there's no doubt in my mind that he has benefitted massively from having Batth next to him this season in terms of racking up clean sheets. 

[chaddyrovers]

25 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

It would be a nice extra. But we need a number of other positions far more urgently. If its a left centre back or upgrades on sub par players (Hedges, Forshaw etc) then I would choose the latter.

We play a back 4, 4 centre backs for 2 places is about right.

I would disagree that 4 is enough given if 2 centre backs are injured and that leaves just 2 centre back which could be long period of times. So why not just have an extra player or two whether that's up and coming youngester from the academy or a player who can play centre back and defensive midfielder 

Hedges is a good squad player and someone I would keep around. 

And before you have asked my opinion on Forshaw hasn't changed 

[Hasta]

I imagine CB number 5 will be O’Riordan or one of the academy lads.

Edited yesterday at 15:02 by Hasta

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

I would disagree that 4 is enough given if 2 centre backs are injured and that leaves just 2 centre back which could be long period of times. So why not just have an extra player or two whether that's up and coming youngester from the academy or a player who can play centre back and defensive midfielder 

Hedges is a good squad player and someone I would keep around. 

And before you have asked my opinion on Forshaw hasn't changed 

Discarding your low standards regarding a winger who has played the majority of games and contributed one goal and 2 assists.

If the options are to sign a 5th centre back and keep Forshaw as immediate cover for midfield, or to not sign a 5th centre back but put the money towards a much better midfielder who can really challenge or at least provide strong cover (and not a huge dip in quality like when Forshaw and Buckley came in during our losing run) and then release Forshaw then surely youd choose the latter.

I cant help but feel like again, you are justifying decisions knowing they will be made rather than challenging them if you dont agree.

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Discarding your low standards regarding a winger who has played the majority of games and contributed one goal and 2 assists.

More BS about standards. 

Hedges is good squad player for middle team club like us and on our budget

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

If the options are to sign a 5th centre back and keep Forshaw as immediate cover for midfield, or to not sign a 5th centre back but put the money towards a much better midfielder who can really challenge or at least provide strong cover (and not a huge dip in quality like when Forshaw and Buckley came in during our losing run) and then release Forshaw then surely youd choose the latter.

We need a new midfielder anyway cos we Forshaw is out of contract and as I said previously I wouldn't renew. So we could need 2 if Buckley moves on

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I cant help but feel like again, you are justifying decisions knowing they will be made rather than challenging them if you dont agree.

what are you going on about now! Carter and Batth both had spell out injured this season and Wharton is coming back from long term injury so why the hell would he take a risk of leaving yourself short or putting too much pressure on Wharton playing too regular in this area again. We had it this season when Carter was out and we had to keep playing Batth and Hyam cos McFadzean couldn't play in back 4. Plus Batth is a year old. 

[Wegerleswiggle]

Buckley JRC Pears Hedges Dolan Gueye Vale all sold or leaving

Garrett and Leonard loaned out. 

Could be tempted to renew Forshaw 

Edited 21 hours ago by Wegerleswiggle
Typo

[roversfan99]

We cant just be having a kid with no senior football as immediate back up.

[riverholmes]

I'd like to see Litherland, Edmondson and Dunn involved in pre-season with the first team. If they get a league club loan move, then fine, but otherwise, should stay around the firsts. They were the better performers in a dismally lowkey U21s campaign. Not sure about Montgomery but probably deserves a chance in pre-season too.

I've been a backer of Buckley, his natural talent being evident. However, it's time for him to move on, I suspect. If he was to stay, I'd like to give him a go a last chance as an attacking midfielder. But, chances are, he will leave as he fell behind Montgomery in the pecking order, it seemed, in the final games.

[AspRover]

I had a bit of a 'if I was playing FM how would I make a tactic' moment looking at the players we have left (I'm assuming Dolan has gone) and the best I could come up with if everyone is fit was something like

 

Toth

Carter    Batth   Wharton

Brittain            Tronstadt             Ribeiro

Travis             Cantwell

Ohashi               

         Gueye

 

 

All the width comes from the fullbacks, but we don't really have any proven wide players. It would be better if we could get the Liverpool kid back for another season - Pickering doesn't have the pace to play there (He'd be left footed cover for Wharton if anything) Cantwell gets isolated and is too easy to muscle off the ball, maybe he'd play better a bit deeper with Travis to cover for him Savage and Tugay style?

IDK, i'm not happy with it, but it was the best I could come up with. Dire situation really, we need at least four more players than we are realistically going to sign.

Edited 7 hours ago by AspRover

[chaddyrovers]

this is why we need signing on the right side of attack in our 4-2-3-1 formation now Dolan is leaving. Given how he has post match in both games suggested for certain(in my opinion) he is deffo leaving. Boro linked and I'm sure they are others in for him. 

I do think Rovers need to bring in a 2/3 signings before pre season started like we did that summer in GB/JDT second season here. 

[superniko]

14 hours ago, Wegerleswiggle said:

Buckley JRC Pears Hedges Dolan Gueye Vale all sold or leaving

Garrett and Leonard loaned out. 

Could be tempted to renew Forshaw 

Agree with most of that. I'd probably not be starting Wharton though. Batth and Hyam would be my pairing given how they've played together this season.

Ohashi also warrants a starting place, he could also be back-up for Cantwell potentially, though I prefer him on the defenders shoulder.

A good chance we see a different formation from Ismael, but it almost feels the same as it has for a few seasons....a decent spine and starting 11, but then a huge drop-off once we pick up injuries / suspensions, and for about the 5th season in a row we need to strengthen the attack / wingers.

[superniko]

5 players needed for me, 7 ideally. A whole new front line of starters, with Ohashi in with them. (assuming Dolan is off)

A better back-up for Tronstad than Forshaw, who can rotate with Travis/Tronstad for injuries, suspensions, tactically.

RB back-up for Brittain, not sure if we have anyone coming through the ranks.

need RW starter

need LW starter

need ST starter

need RB backup

need DM backup

ideally RW backup

ideally AM backup

 

Most importantly, we need to use the loan market efficiently this year like we have in years past. Last year was not good enough with Dennis, Cozier-Duberry, Sanderson and Woodrow all miles off it. Beck was good and Baker was the exact solid rotation player we should be looking for, but obviously left in January.

Edited 6 hours ago by superniko

[davulsukur]

According to Gestede in the No Tippy Tappy Football podcast (I finally listened to it 😞 ), the plan is to have 2 players for each position, with a 3rd player being an academy player (where possible). I suspect the club will try and do the following:

GK: Toth, Pears, Michalski

RB: Brittain, New, Duru

CB: Hyam, Carter, Litherland

CB: Batth, Wharton, Atcheson, New

LB: Riberio, Pickering, New/Unknown from Academy

RW: New, New, New/Unknown from Academy

CM: Travis, New, Montgomery

CM: Tronstad, Forshaw, New/Unknown from Academy

LW: Hedges, Kargbo, New/Unknown from Academy

AMF: Cantwell, Weimann, Tyjon

ST: Ohashi, Gueye, New

 

OUT: JRC, Buckley, Dolan, Vale, Markanday, Garrett, O'Riordan, Batty, Gilsenan, Leonard (on loan)

Loans departing: Beck, Woodrow, Sanderson, Cozier-Duberry.

 

I've stuck 6 academy players in there: Michalski, Duru, Litherland, Atcheson, Montgomery & Tyjon and i think we'll add 2 more to the group, I just don't know enough about the academy players to know who's coming through and who isn't but we'll want players coming through on the wings, where we are light on players.

We could be fighting to keep hold of Tyjon as a few reports coming about that Man Utd (and others) are looking at taking him off our hands.

That leaves us needing:

x1 RB

x1 CB (as has been mentioned on here and by RG, Wharton won't be rushed)

x1 CM

x2 RW

x1 ST

That's the "key positions" RG has mentioned

That puts us up to 24 players, with 8 academy players added in.

 

 

[KentExile]

58 minutes ago, davulsukur said:

According to Gestede in the No Tippy Tappy Football podcast (I finally listened to it 😞 ), the plan is to have 2 players for each position, with a 3rd player being an academy player (where possible). I suspect the club will try and do the following:

GK: Toth, Pears, Michalski

RB: Brittain, New, Duru

CB: Hyam, Carter, Litherland

CB: Batth, Wharton, Atcheson, New

LB: Riberio, Pickering, New/Unknown from Academy

RW: New, New, New/Unknown from Academy

CM: Travis, New, Montgomery

CM: Tronstad, Forshaw, New/Unknown from Academy

LW: Hedges, Kargbo, New/Unknown from Academy

AMF: Cantwell, Weimann, Tyjon

ST: Ohashi, Gueye, New

 

OUT: JRC, Buckley, Dolan, Vale, Markanday, Garrett, O'Riordan, Batty, Gilsenan, Leonard (on loan)

Loans departing: Beck, Woodrow, Sanderson, Cozier-Duberry.

 

I've stuck 6 academy players in there: Michalski, Duru, Litherland, Atcheson, Montgomery & Tyjon and i think we'll add 2 more to the group, I just don't know enough about the academy players to know who's coming through and who isn't but we'll want players coming through on the wings, where we are light on players.

We could be fighting to keep hold of Tyjon as a few reports coming about that Man Utd (and others) are looking at taking him off our hands.

That leaves us needing:

x1 RB

x1 CB (as has been mentioned on here and by RG, Wharton won't be rushed)

x1 CM

x2 RW

x1 ST

That's the "key positions" RG has mentioned

That puts us up to 24 players, with 8 academy players added in.

 

 

Based on what Gestede has said in his interviews/podcasts, I agree with pretty much all of what you have concluded

 

Just to add

I imagine that the 3rd choice left back from the academy will be either Batty or Powell, (I expect both to sign new deals in the summer) with the other being loaned out

Your other CM from the academy will be likely be either Dunn or James Edmondson, again with the other being loaned out

Due to a lack of investment & options in the youth teams, I think Markanday will be one of our reserve wide players next season

I fully expect Gilsenans option to be taken up to get him back to fitness if possible, maybe a loan for him too in the second half of the season

I think Garrett (and possibly also O'Riordan) will get another loan rather than be solid

If they get good enough offers for Hyam, Travis, Tronstad, Brittain, they will sell them, otherwise they will allow their contracts to expire as we have seen previously 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by KentExile

[davulsukur]

1 hour ago, KentExile said:

Based on what Gestede has said in his interviews/podcasts, I agree with pretty much all of what you have concluded

 

Just to add

I imagine that the 3rd choice left back from the academy will be either Batty or Powell, (I expect both to sign new deals in the summer) with the other being loaned out

Your other CM from the academy will be likely be either Dunn or James Edmondson, again with the other being loaned out

Due to a lack of investment & options in the youth teams, I think Markanday will be one of our reserve wide players next season

I fully expect Gilsenans option to be taken up to get him back to fitness if possible, maybe a loan for him too in the second half of the season

I think Garrett (and possibly also O'Riordan) will get another loan rather than be solid

If they get good enough offers for Hyam, Travis, Tronstad, Brittain, they will sell them, otherwise they will allow their contracts to expire as we have seen previously 

 

Cheers for that, as I said I don't have too much knowledge of the players coming through. I've heard Edmondson and Dunn's names banded about a bit by the club, as well as O'Grady-Macken.

The club does spring a few surprises with the youth team retention though, just when you think a player might make it, we release them.

Not sure on Markanday, I think he'll possibly only get the nod if we fail to land anyone in the summer but he's already shown he's not good enough for this level, so it would be a disappointing contract renewal.

I think Gilsenan will end up following Sam Barne's route. Club obviously rates them but both just injured forever. I reckon we'll release him and he'll have to drop down a few levels to get himself back playing (albeit, there are a few years between them). If we give him another year, it will be last chance saloon for him. Shame, he seemed like a decent player when he did manage to get on the pitch for the 1st team.

[Exiled_Rover]

1 hour ago, KentExile said:

Based on what Gestede has said in his interviews/podcasts, I agree with pretty much all of what you have concluded

 

Just to add

I imagine that the 3rd choice left back from the academy will be either Batty or Powell, (I expect both to sign new deals in the summer) with the other being loaned out

Your other CM from the academy will be likely be either Dunn or James Edmondson, again with the other being loaned out

Due to a lack of investment & options in the youth teams, I think Markanday will be one of our reserve wide players next season

I fully expect Gilsenans option to be taken up to get him back to fitness if possible, maybe a loan for him too in the second half of the season

I think Garrett (and possibly also O'Riordan) will get another loan rather than be solid

If they get good enough offers for Hyam, Travis, Tronstad, Brittain, they will sell them, otherwise they will allow their contracts to expire as we have seen previously 

 

I think the bit at the end in bold is the problem when fantasy squad building.

We need to generate millions of £s a year in transfers just to stand still financially - they're going to sell some of our more established stars to do that, so the squad will be even weaker than we fear before we can even think about adding to a terrifyingly weak side. 

[Exiled_Rover]

24 minutes ago, davulsukur said:

Cheers for that, as I said I don't have too much knowledge of the players coming through. I've heard Edmondson and Dunn's names banded about a bit by the club, as well as O'Grady-Macken.

The club does spring a few surprises with the youth team retention though, just when you think a player might make it, we release them.

Not sure on Markanday, I think he'll possibly only get the nod if we fail to land anyone in the summer but he's already shown he's not good enough for this level, so it would be a disappointing contract renewal.

I think Gilsenan will end up following Sam Barne's route. Club obviously rates them but both just injured forever. I reckon we'll release him and he'll have to drop down a few levels to get himself back playing (albeit, there are a few years between them). If we give him another year, it will be last chance saloon for him. Shame, he seemed like a decent player when he did manage to get on the pitch for the 1st team.

I'd never heard of Montgomery until he ran out at RB for us. He wasn't highly touted at all. 

Markanday would be a waste of a wage - we should have sold him in January, he's not physical enough for this level. A bit like ACD; you can be as skilful as you want, but it's a boy playing against men athletically. It's painful viewing.