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Stuart

Raya joins Brentford

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13 hours ago, Husky said:

Still not evidence, but there was a bit more fuel for the fire when our new number 1 Leutwiler came in and showed similarly dross glued to the goal line keeping 'skills'.

A specialist coach is unusual and the nearest comparison is in the NFL. There, usually annually, the coach is held accountable for the achievements and improvements of his charges. Benefit of the doubt is seldom given since that could produce another wasted year. In the last year at the Rovers Raya and Winterbottom have left for clubs where they think their game will improve. Albinson, Byrne and Dillon have been let go because they have not improved. Which means that either Leutwiler and Fisher must have improved dramatically of that the standards of quality control for Rovers' coaches does not exist. I'm not saying that this is evidence that Benson is a bad coach but on the other hand he's certainly not a successful coach.

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Just now, JHRover said:

Mowbray also seems to be suggesting that the funds generated will enable him to strengthen in multiple areas. Presumably then whatever funds were available before selling Raya weren't sufficient.

And presumably defines what standard of a goalkeeper we bring in.

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11 hours ago, Husky said:

I think there are literally thousands of goalkeepers that aren't Buffon yet can still come out and catch/punch a cross clear.

Are you Rovers' 'mysterious' goalkeeping coach by any chance? ūüėõ

My point was I would expect a 28 international to be able to do that stuff already. 

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John Keeley ex keeper and keeper coach at Ewood you only had to watch his pre match drills to see his was a good thorough coach, fact he had a powerful left foot helped. Raya was under him which obviously helped his progress when he stepped up from youth, Steele was signed and was crap but improved a lot under him then went backwards immediately he left.

Most good clubs employ ex keepers as GK coach it does make a difference without doubt as does working with other good keepers daily.  Another thing penny pinching Venky Rovers and presumably the manager seem blind to these days but no doubt Benson and Mowbray are getting a pat on the back for turning youth product Raya into a 3 million plus add ons sale that pays some bills.

 

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Just now, tomphil said:

John Keeley ex keeper and keeper coach at Ewood you only had to watch his pre match drills to see his was a good thorough coach, fact he had a powerful left foot helped. Raya was under him which obviously helped his progress when he stepped up from youth, Steele was signed and was crap but improved a lot under him then went backwards immediately he left.

Most good clubs employ ex keepers as GK coach it does make a difference without doubt as does working with other good keepers daily.  Another thing penny pinching Venky Rovers and presumably the manager seem blind to these days but no doubt Benson and Mowbray are getting a pat on the back for turning youth product Raya into a 3 million plus add ons sale that pays some bills.

As a talented but inexperienced keeper, who are you going to listen to (and therefore learn from) the most?

An ex pro who has done your job successfully for 20 years and knows every move you need to make, every starting position, every likely mistake you are going to make before you do?

Or some bloke who has read a lot of books and watched a lot of videos?

It really is that simple. Football is as much a mind game as physical one - especially as a goalkeeper. Friedel was a master at the psychological side of the game. His preparation before games was meticulous.

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Just now, Stuart said:

As a talented but inexperienced keeper, who are you going to listen to (and therefore learn from) the most?

An ex pro who has done your job successfully for 20 years and knows every move you need to make, every starting position, every likely mistake you are going to make before you do?

Or some bloke who has read a lot of books and watched a lot of videos?

It really is that simple. Football is as much a mind game as physical one - especially as a goalkeeper. Friedel was a master at the psychological side of the game. His preparation before games was meticulous.

I think the downfall of a lot of half decent managers is the lack of surrounding themselves with the best qualified staff and assistants they might be able to bring in and instead going down the jobs for the boys or cheapo route.

Souness was a good case in point for that.

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Still have a feeling in years to come we will look back and wonder why we sold him so cheaply and so young. I have thought for a while now that once he matures and improves his control of the box and decision making he will move onto a upper mid table La Ligua team.

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18 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

But that's not evidence that he is bad though is it?  It's speculation. Yet it's repeatedly stated on here that he is a bad coach. 

Well we had 3 keepers last season NONE of whom was good enough. Whether a different coach could have got more out of them or whether they were innately incapable of improvement I don't know.

Poor coaching has to be a possibility?

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Just now, 47er said:

Well we had 3 keepers last season NONE of whom was good enough. Whether a different coach could have got more out of them or whether they were innately incapable of improvement I don't know.

Poor coaching has to be a possibility?

3 keepers? Bit harsh if you are including Fisher in that list. 

It's a possibility of course yes, but one that is just speculation at this point. Obviously I would love if we had Friedel or Shay Given as GK coach... 

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5 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

3 keepers? Bit harsh if you are including Fisher in that list. 

It's a possibility of course yes, but one that is just speculation at this point. Obviously I would love if we had Friedel or Shay Given as GK coach... 

Well if you prefer "we had 2 keepers last season and neither were good enough"!

The point doesn't change....

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Just now, 47er said:

Well if you prefer "we had 2 keepers last season and neither were good enough"!

The point doesn't change....

Yes, the point that it's a possibility the goal keeper coach isn't great remains 

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Was thinking about this a different way - would we be happy if we had signed David Raya to be our no1?

Liked him, way better than Steele but right now think we need an older head between the sticks. 

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44 minutes ago, Roverthechimp said:

Was thinking about this a different way - would we be happy if we had signed David Raya to be our no1?

Liked him, way better than Steele but right now think we need an older head between the sticks. 

As far as I can make out, that's the majority view- that Raya shouldn't be No1 now.

The more difficult question is ---should we have sold him? In an ideal world he should have been No 2 for a while, then stepped back up.

 

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Just now, 47er said:

As far as I can make out, that's the majority view- that Raya shouldn't be No1 now.

The more difficult question is ---should we have sold him? In an ideal world he should have been No 2 for a while, then stepped back up.

 

Suspect that may have been the suggestion and everybody agreed that sitting on the bench wasn't an option. Loan to another club probably suited nobody so imagine it became mutually beneficial once Brentford showed some cash.

Ideally i would have preferred to keep him but all depends on the replacement...

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9 minutes ago, JonSnow said:

I genuinely didn't think he was all that. Decent, will improve I'm sure, but £3m seems about right.

Some phenomenal reflex saves. However some ghastly blunders.

The first will stay with him till he's declined with age, the second could be coached out.

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Just now, 47er said:

Some phenomenal reflex saves. However some ghastly blunders.

The first will stay with him till he's declined with age, the second could be coached out.

Agreed. But some clubs bin off 'keepers after a succession of blunders. They've likely a new centre back pairing there too. Interesting.

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Anyone else find it ironic that the team who did us 5-2, when Raya(and Mowbray) had his worst display of the Season, and his worst 'rick', should then come in and buy him.

If they saw enough in him to help fuel their promotion bid, in time for their new Stadium in 2020/2021, then why are we letting go......Leutwiler's performances will never be as good as Raya's and now we are diverted from a CB into finding a Goalkeeper.

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1 hour ago, mhead said:

Anyone else find it ironic that the team who did us 5-2, when Raya(and Mowbray) had his worst display of the Season, and his worst 'rick', should then come in and buy him.

If they saw enough in him to help fuel their promotion bid, in time for their new Stadium in 2020/2021, then why are we letting go......Leutwiler's performances will never be as good as Raya's and now we are diverted from a CB into finding a Goalkeeper.

The irony didn't escape me either.

However, I don't think he is good enough to be our No.1. Too many mistakes to demoralise his teammates-and me.  "Better than Steele" is no great advert.

What worries me is the idea of going into the season without a better option. That would have echoes of summer 2016...oh and 2011.

That would promote a new essay question: Safe hands: discuss with reference to goalkeeping and ownership.

 

Edited by Leonard Venkhater

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He was excellent in the home game v Brentford, that save onto the bar was amazing. They must have seen enough raw ability over the two games (albeit almost all good attributes only in the first) to decide there was enough to work with.

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I'm kinda glad to see him go, I know it's harsh but when we had that bad run last season, it was getting to the point where it was 'The striker shoots, its a certain goal'

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1 hour ago, starscascade said:

I'm kinda glad to see him go, I know it's harsh but when we had that bad run last season, it was getting to the point where it was 'The striker shoots, its a certain goal'

If Raya is going straight into the first-team at Brentford, they are probably going to go through the same things that we did; pulls of an amazing save here and there, but the rest of his basic goalkeeping abilities are erratic at best and will cost them goals. I just wonder if, at 23, he wasn't quite ready for first-team football. I never saw him once control his defence or organise them dominantly, or even give them a bollocking for being shit. That's something we MUST have, in my opinion, and something that Raya seemingly never did. I would have preferred us to have had someone more established between the sticks last season, while training up Raya in the process for 2 or 3 seasons' time.

He'll want first-team football now, though, but I think he is going to continue having confidence issues. It's no longer our problem, which is why if anybody was going to be sold for a few million, I'm glad it was him.

Strangely, though, I thought his distribution improved massively last season.

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Just now, OnePhilT said:

If Raya is going straight into the first-team at Brentford, they are probably going to go through the same things that we did; pulls of an amazing save here and there, but the rest of his basic goalkeeping abilities are erratic at best and will cost them goals. I just wonder if, at 23, he wasn't quite ready for first-team football. I never saw him once control his defence or organise them dominantly. I would have preferred us to have had someone more established between the sticks last season, while training up Raya in the process for 2 or 3 seasons' time.

He'll want first-team football now, though, but I think he is going to continue having confidence issues. It's no longer our problem, which is why if anybody was going to be sold for a few million, I'm glad it was him.

Strangely, though, I thought his distribution improved massively last season.

I agree, he has a lot of improving to do to compete at this level wherever he goes. Pundits were commenting on his brilliance last season, but they are only seeing the saves in the short highlights on Quest at 9PM. Watching him week in and out, we got to see his errors in-play. And they outnumbered the saves!

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Moving on is great for Rayas career. He was pushed on far too quickly at Rovers but that was forced due to the other keepers we had being shite.

Last season after a kick in the head he was rushed back in far too quickly.

Mowbray comments at the time:

"The players were feeling sick with what they saw," said the Rovers boss. "He is in hospital. The bone at the top has been pushed into the skull almost and the nose is sort of hanging off really." "The players could not look at it, it was that bad."

Then Mowbray basically starts a process to force him out by calling him out in Public, dropping him for a keeper who only a few months previously was not considered good enough to be used to let Raya recover from injury, and then opening wants another keeper. Of course Raya would want out, so would any player with a bit of spunk.

I'm firmly in the camp that Raya was always an accident waiting to happen so not sorry to see him go as Rovers are not equipped at manager or coaching level to improve him any time soon.

I hope he thrives at Brentford and will follow his career with interest.

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He was an improvement from Jason Steele. I mean looking at that season with Sunderland, God he let a lot of goals in.

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