[Archived] Sustained Attempt to Undermine the Club?

[gumboots]

But nobody wants to discuss facts. This thread in 16 hours:

Replies 144

Views 4333

Barclays Mortgage or Charge Thread - which is undiluted fact and should be a concern, in 10 days:

Replies 77

Views 3917

Which for me suggests when posters with concerns which are in the public domain fact, which lead to questions with regard to the current funding of BRFC very few people give a monkey's or appear to wish to discuss it.

If a concerned poster hints at what is perceived by others as "inside info" but is unable to back it up for a variety of reasons it warrants an entire thread devoted to complaining about such posts.

A quick bit of maths suggests to me there is approximately 30 times more interest in criticising folk who are trying to highlight areas of concern. I do agree it does get a bit heavy on occassions.

This simply confirms for me what I have thought for years. The vast majority of football fans only want to hear positives until such time as a huge negative, like relegation or going bust, has become an incontrovertible fact.

So what do people want fact, fantasy, rumour or hints. If the demand is for fact, which is the implication of requesting evidence, I hope we never see another Transfer Window thread again because such a thread is usually full of rumour, hint and fantasy with very, very little that is factual. Oh but then it was reported on SSN....................................

The problem is that I really don't understand finance. If you were able to reduce the stuff on the mortgage thread to 2 lines which even the dumbest idiot could understand then I might stand a chance. It's not that I'm not prepared to discuss facts - it's partly that nobody really seems to know absolutely incontrevertible ones, and if they do they are beyond people like me who manage to pay all their bills on time but beyond that have little or no interest in understanding money.Even if you were to tell me that the fact is that we can't pay the bills at Rovers(not saying that is a fact by the way), there's nothing I can do about it and running around crying about it wouldn't do any good anyway. I am as scared as most of the unknown, but I just don't get the desperate desire to drop hints about it and try to make others worry without being specific if there's nothing fans can do. I don't want to bury my head in the sand and pretend all is well if it's not but there has been so much doom mongering and so little real doom so far (although I appreciate that could change) that it's hard to spend all my time, even as a natural pessimist, panicking.

[TimmyJimmy]

A smashing post but an exchange of views can only happen when a view is posted, as opposed to "something bad is happening but I can't tell you what, but I want you to agree with me blindly anyway" If you think that's an exchange of views then I suggest you re-read your dictionary definition of a fascist agenda ffs

I didn't think I was being subtle to cause confusion. I was saying straight out and seriously that we will never agree on this topic so let's agree to disagree. We need a separate thread styled something like "faint of heart do not enter here" or somesuch then those that have the stomach to read it can and those that don't may carry on in their own rose scented paradise.

Just because some posters don't 'get it' doesn't mean to say that others aren't interested. To the originator of this thread please don't try to school or condition others into thinking that any so called "in the know" postings are necessarily SUSTAINED ATTEMPTS TO UNDERMINE THE CLUB, which frankly is reactionary clap trap. I invite all of such opinion to look the other way and keep on whistling in the dark if that is what they want to do.

I'm never going to reveal my sources and I know others won't either, people would be fired. Necessarily then the best that can be posted here is unattributed information. I agree it's loose but that’s as good as it's going to get. If that's not your thing then don't read it. Why is this controversial and why does it require the wrath of a McCarthy style witch hunt to be unleashed on certain posters? Look the other way dude and walk on by. Oh yes I forgot to add (ffs), always helps with the conditioning doesn't it.

[artemorethanlabore]

I didn't think I was being subtle to cause confusion. I was saying straight out and seriously that we will never agree on this topic so let's agree to disagree. We need a separate thread styled something like "faint of heart do not enter here" or somesuch then those that have the stomach to read it can and those that don't may carry on in their own rose scented paradise.

Just because some posters don't 'get it' doesn't mean to say that others aren't interested. To the originator of this thread please don't try to school or condition others into thinking that any so called "in the know" postings are necessarily SUSTAINED ATTEMPTS TO UNDERMINE THE CLUB, which frankly is reactionary clap trap. I invite all of such opinion to look the other way and keep on whistling in the dark if that is what they want to do.

I'm never going to reveal my sources and I know others won't either, people would be fired. Necessarily then the best that can be posted here is unattributed information. I agree it's loose but that’s as good as it's going to get. If that's not your thing then don't read it. Why is this controversial and why does it require the wrath of a McCarthy style witch hunt to be unleashed on certain posters? Look the other way dude and walk on by. Oh yes I forgot to add (ffs), always helps with the conditioning doesn't it.

¨

The problem isn't whether there is a source for the information, the problem is the lack of information. Stating "there is a crisis at the club" does not enlighten, help or bring about change. I'm not sure if it needs to be repeated, but staying anonymous on the internet is doable. If something needs to be said, please do so. Use a forum outside of this motherboard in order to avoid legality-issues for the sake of this board and simple link whatever is written. Without any sort of explanation of the form of threat to the club, I don't think you should be surprised to be met with skepticism.

[deftangel]

But nobody wants to discuss facts. This thread in 16 hours:

Replies 144

Views 4333

Barclays Mortgage or Charge Thread - which is undiluted fact and should be a concern, in 10 days:

Replies 77

Views 3917

Which for me suggests when posters with concerns which are in the public domain fact, which lead to questions with regard to the current funding of BRFC very few people give a monkey's or appear to wish to discuss it.

If a concerned poster hints at what is perceived by others as "inside info" but is unable to back it up for a variety of reasons it warrants an entire thread devoted to complaining about such posts.

A quick bit of maths suggests to me there is approximately 30 times more interest in criticising folk who are trying to highlight areas of concern. I do agree it does get a bit heavy on occassions.

This simply confirms for me what I have thought for years. The vast majority of football fans only want to hear positives until such time as a huge negative, like relegation or going bust, has become an incontrovertible fact.

So what do people want fact, fantasy, rumour or hints. If the demand is for fact, which is the implication of requesting evidence, I hope we never see another Transfer Window thread again because such a thread is usually full of rumour, hint and fantasy with very, very little that is factual. Oh but then it was reported on SSN....................................

No, I don't think that's fair at all. The mortgage issue is a complex one that is over the heads of many people. Heck, it's over my head for certain but you'll see I've tried to follow it up with the two guys at the LET regardless. I've not even had an acknowledgement from them. I don't have a stack of local connections so my options are limited.

You would have thought during a quiet week whilst the squad are in Dubai that might be something two journalists with connections to the club might be interested in. Perhaps they are and are just keeping quiet but would you really level the same fairweather accusation at them?

I don't doubt there is a sizeable proportion of members here who are exactly as you describe. Perhaps they would just like to talk about football, who are we to tell them otherwise? Maybe this thread got started off on the wrong foot in terms of the title and the OP but reading it in it's entirety I don't think it's correct to dismiss this thread purely as just criticising folk trying to highlight areas of concern. The OP has made his actual position more clearly in subsequent posts.

Secret squirrel "I've heard this but can't/won't say what" type posts aren't highlighting anything. Quite the opposite in fact.

My beef with it is the way it's being done, the fact that it's been going on for months not even weeks, that a large amount of these hints have failed to materialise into anything tangible. It's creating a "boy who cried wolf" syndrome which is quite possibly a contributory factor in the mortgage stuff being ignored.

And I say all that having exchanged a quite cordial PM with PhilipL earlier. I'm on his case a lot because as a fan I care and that given the actual real things that need to be addressed and questioned, I see it as healthy to test my natural optimistic reading of the picture in the most robust fashion possible.

But I'm just a fairweather critic clearly.

[deftangel]

Necessarily then the best that can be posted here is unattributed information.

Of course! Nobody (sensible) is suggesting someone should leak out on to the internet information and the source. Nor should it be done in a way that makes it overtly obvious who the source is when not disclosed. I'm not even suggesting anything be leaked unless it's obviously in the best interests of the club.

But we aren't getting any unattributed information at the moment. All we're getting is "I know something bad, but I can't say, you'll find out soon, be afraid".

Even then, that would be fine if it hadn't been going on for months already and/or the fact that some of the info that did get laid out more explicitly hasn't actually materialised into anything of substance.

Regardless, I said in my first post in this thread, I do not think that in of itself these posts undermine the club in anyway. I would venture the OP would agree, if you take into account his contribution to the entire thread rather than the opening salvo. But I am failing to see what they are actually achieving.

[Exiled in Toronto]

I was saying straight out and seriously that we will never agree on this topic so let's agree to disagree. We need a separate thread styled something like "faint of heart do not enter here" or somesuch then those that have the stomach to read it can and those that don't may carry on in their own rose scented paradise.

If that's your agreeing to disagree...!lol

Start the thread but please put something factual and interesting in. There are already enough scary bedtime stories on here.

[broadsword]

Start the thread but please put something factual and interesting in.

A-ha!

Aye, there's the rub. All we have is people who claim an inside track passing on what they can, as well as the official line from the club. And clearly since the official line changes day-to-day, anyone putting their faith in the official line would need to memory of a goldfish or the doublethink capabilities of Winston Smith.

Even something factual such as the mortgage, it's just one fact in isolation and there's nothing else factual to join it up to.

I guess it will all pan out in good time, but meanwhile let's all just attack each other, it makes such good reading.

[rebelmswar]

A-ha!

Aye, there's the rub. All we have is people who claim an inside track passing o what they can, as well as the official line from the club. And clearly since the official line changes day-to-day, anyone putting their faith in the official line would need to memory of a goldfish or the doublethink capabilities of Winston Smith.

Even something factual such as the mortgage, it's just one fact in isolation and there's nothing else factual to join it up to.

I guess it will all pan out in good time, but meanwhile let's all just attack each other, it makes such good reading.

Do you mean to tell me that there is not a whole dark conspiracy of supporters, let's call them the Knighthawks, who's only desire is bring down the club?!?!

Are you telling me that Jim and Theno are not part of a insidious cult that's only aim is the establishment of Lanc Untd?

And here I am with plans for a giant chicken plucker and a recipe for some fantastic nuggets. The PM's are already written. The feathers were ready to fly! Don't tell me this plot isn't true!

:'(

[47er]

If you don't know, or can only try and guess what the problems are, how can you comment on them?

As far as I'm concerned Mum, there is 1 crisis and we all know about it------only Blackpool are below us in the form table.

Yet there are plenty of posters who call others negative for raising it and looking at causes and solutions.They've had plenty to say about it on this thread whereas , in reality, the thread was supposed to be about rumours.

[broadsword]

Could it be?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT0WEFs2S90

or perhaps:

could this be the answer?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFfQuCGU0ZQ

and could Venky's takeover be a warning of worse things to come?

[RovertheHill]

Just because some posters don't 'get it' doesn't mean to say that others aren't interested. To the originator of this thread please don't try to school or condition others into thinking that any so called "in the know" postings are necessarily SUSTAINED ATTEMPTS TO UNDERMINE THE CLUB, which frankly is reactionary clap trap. I invite all of such opinion to look the other way and keep on whistling in the dark if that is what they want to do.

I'm never going to reveal my sources and I know others won't either, people would be fired. Necessarily then the best that can be posted here is unattributed information. I agree it's loose but that’s as good as it's going to get. If that's not your thing then don't read it. Why is this controversial and why does it require the wrath of a McCarthy style witch hunt to be unleashed on certain posters? Look the other way dude and walk on by. Oh yes I forgot to add (ffs), always helps with the conditioning doesn't it.

It's a messageboard full of opinions but apparently if I disagree with you I should just walk on by. The reason I get frustrated (and added ffs) is because of your repeated hypocrisy and attempts to somehow brand me as a fascist or this thread as a McCarthy style witch hunt simply because I disagree with you. I seem to remember you had no trouble disagreeing with lots of us when you thought Syed and his takeover were the bees knees. But you are right, I should simply not read it and walk on by. Even the fact that it's on every single thread now is no excuse. And I say it again - something I've not had an answer for yet. If you are so concerned about your sources and their jobs WHY SAY ANYTHING AT ALL? And whilst we're on the subject of unanswered, I've also asked the question several times - what can we the ordinary fan do about the dark goings-on that are being hinted at?

Regardless, I said in my first post in this thread, I do not think that in of itself these posts undermine the club in anyway. I would venture the OP would agree, if you take into account his contribution to the entire thread rather than the opening salvo. But I am failing to see what they are actually achieving.

You are quite right that most of the posts on here that question or criticise the owners, the team or the manager do not undermine the club in any way shape or form. Hell, I do it myself. That's what the board is for.

However, there is something else going on that at times seems, how can I put this, something more. That's just my opinion which is nor more, or no less valid than anyone else's, regardless of whether I am stumbling about in the dark or not. But I can see that there have been a number of insinuations that somehow the current manager was responsible for backstabbing the previous manager (et tu Steve?), and there seems to be more than a normal level of interest in whether or not he has the necessary qualification for the job. Just follow that one through for a minute? If it turned out that somehow he'd managed to fool the authorities, how would it benefit the club if it came out on a supporters messageboard? And besides, at the moment he's doing a good job of proving just how useless that particular qualification is. Now I could be over-reacting and these could just be normal day-to-day postings on a football messageboard. In which case I apologise. However I am unlikely to know as I have no contacts and seemingly no way of finding out.

Maybe I did over-egg the first post but since then I've been accused of having a malevolent, yet naive, fascist with a McCarthyite agenda so I think we're all square now

[philipl]

I am not a conspiratist and I am not trying to undermine the club.

As I see it there are three things happening (or have happened) which are causing people to see conspiracies:

- during the takeover which was protracted, I and a very few other posters whom I know talked to a lot of people. This included potential buyers who have never been alluded to on this MB during a time when everyone thought there were no buyers about plus when things heated up from last June representatives and principals on the bidding side and several people involved on the selling side. Of necessity we could not write directly what we were aware of so everything had to be obtuse.

- the sale genuinely did take bizarre twists and turns with no less than four different front runners at differing times, a heck of a lot tactical shifts, quite a bit of smokescreen and certainly three things that happened which have left a dirty taste in the mouth to say the least.

- then to compound the extraordinary ride up to the sale, we have ended up with owners whom one might describe as highly unconventional with interesting advisors and a novel approach to PR.

This has meant that what was true one day was superceded by events the next- it does not mean people writing on brfcs were cutting and trimming.

Some things turned out to be true and the authors got an absolute hammering on this mb and from other sources for discussing it- nicko and me discussing last October that there would be a change of chairman and Jerome Anderson would run the club if Venky's bought it is one such instance.

As of today there are two hard facts I am aware of which half the MB would use to attack the ownership and management with and half would use to say I am undermining the club with. It is not me who is undermining the club, it is the people who are doing and saying some rather strange things at the Rovers (collectively). These facts are hopefully not going to be of any particular consequence in the larger picture of things and they were told me in confidence so I cannot post them.

That of course is going to bring the wrath of those posters who accuse me of behaving in a snooty manner or words to that effect.

I am not looking for sympathy or support- I am just telling you as it is.

[imy9]

I have been told by sources (I cannot name at this moment in time) that Venky's will be making some further signings in the summer.

There will also be a number of players leaving the club as a result of off the field issues, these include Brown and Zurab.

I am also told that a new shirt sponsor will be announced shortly from the Asian continent- again cant say more due to breaking confidences. Please wait a few more days where I will be revealing more ground breaking news.

[broadsword]

I have been told by sources (I cannot name at this moment in time) that Venky's will be making some further signings in the summer.

There will also be a number of players leaving the club as a result of off the field issues, these include Brown and Zurab.

I am also told that a new shirt sponsor will be announced shortly from the Asian continent- again cant say more due to breaking confidences. Please wait a few more days where I will be revealing more ground breaking news.

Joke's wearing thin now.

[deftangel]

This has meant that what was true one day was superceded by events the next- it does not mean people writing on brfcs were cutting and trimming.

This I appreciate. Things change. We've had the same debate about Nicko and most people accept that he shouldn't be lynched if he gets one thing wrong. What he does have is a reliable track record of genuine information that can/has been verified at a later date. Moreover, he puts his name to it in a national newspaper adding professional integrity into the mix.

On the other hand, we have several posters here alluding to "information" seemingly emanating from one, possibly more, sources connected with the club most of which has not been translated into actual things happening. There has been no mass player exodus, Maradona isn't here, we haven't signed Geovani, Boyd or Warnock, we did, as it turns out, invest more a sizable sum in the squad in Januray, Jerome Anderson has not shipped in a lot of mediocre SEM talent and done a runner with a big wad of cash.

There are only so many times you can write off such things as "things change!". I can currently count a lot more misses than hits. Perhaps in my inebriated state I'm forgetful.

As of today there are two hard facts I am aware of which half the MB would use to attack the ownership and management with and half would use to say I am undermining the club with. It is not me who is undermining the club, it is the people who are doing and saying some rather strange things at the Rovers (collectively). These facts are hopefully not going to be of any particular consequence in the larger picture of things and they were told me in confidence so I cannot post them.

This is the entire point I'm making. Exactly what does you telling us there are "two hard facts" that you cannot disclose achieve? Especially if they are of "hopefully not going to be of any particular consequence".

It is either in the interests of the club and it's supporters that we can discuss those facts, however polarising that discussion might be. Or it isn't. In which case, why mention it?

[FourLaneBlue]

The board has changed completely from when I first joined. There is little to no pleasure these days coming from exchanging views with fellow fans. A dozen or so motormouths repeating soundbites ad nauseam might give them some sort of kick, but for the life of me I cannot fathom what it is.

This goes back further than Venky's, however. Even since the Ince appointment almost three years ago this board, and seemingly supporting Rovers full stop, has been more accustomed to arguing and confrontation than it ever was before. There was also bitching and arguing under both Ince and Sam.

I remember hoping that Venky's had someone lined up when they sacked Sam which would really get us all signing from the same sheet again. Alas, it was not to be.

Together we stand, divided we fall?

[neekoy]

I think more, divided we stand together we fall.

The only thing that has changed is the venom of posts, the "I'm With Stupid"s annoy the hell out of me everytime I see it, whether I agree or not and the arid nature of some of the topics and bromodic comments and information seen across all forums.

Other then that, I love every minute of it.

[Guest roverspogges]

It's just a messageboard people, its like a fun little soap opera I like reading. Keep it up ladies and gents I wouldn't want it to be any different and besides, this board has very little influence on anything at rovers so I don't know what the fuss is about. Arte et labore etc.......

[TimmyJimmy]

... The reason I get frustrated (and added ffs) is because of your repeated hypocrisy ...

The practice of professing beliefs and feelings that I do not hold? OK not sure what that's about but if that's what you think. So that I don't stand accused of further hypocrisy then I will add one more thing and then shut up. It is about protecting sources but it is also about protecting ourselves. A few posters have had warnings and no one can feel easy when considering the following :

Charges of -

Slander,

Vilification,

Calumny,

Defamation

Libel

All actionable under English law for the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual or business a negative image.

So you are entirely right, but for all the wrong reasons, we should just shut up and stew in private.

[PAFELL]

The practice of professing beliefs and feelings that I do not hold? OK not sure what that's about but if that's what you think. So that I don't stand accused of further hypocrisy then I will add one more thing and then shut up. It is about protecting sources but it is also about protecting ourselves. A few posters have had warnings and no one can feel easy when considering the following :

Charges of -

Slander,

Vilification,

Calumny,

Defamation

Libel

All actionable under English law for the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual or business a negative image.

So you are entirely right, but for all the wrong reasons, we should just shut up and stew in private.

Received warnings is maybe over the stop - polite requests to leave certain subjects alone. Which I will respect.

Even though it was others who initiated the topic, who posted snippets of this and that happening. So when others respond / reply to posts from people such as yourselves. We get asked to leave the subject alone.

Which means your posts on a public messageboard, are an utter waste of time. Why bother posting anything at all if not able (which I understand can arise)to be able to give the whole picture. Because some of us have been asked not to discuss them on here - for reasons I respect.

What I do not like is people bringing up subjects that others are not allowed to discuss. So you may as well go and stew in private (useing your words) Pm / email etc each other. After all nobody else can get involved in the subject. So please kindly keep your speculation - true or not - off the public message board, because the public cannot discuss it.

Freely PM etc anybody your willing to share things with - but putting various snippets on things on here, that we are asked not to discuss - is provocation in itself, which I believe no poster on here deserves. But undermines this board, its members and those who run it. After all the latter have to watch with more dilligence in case something that is written that could invite legal action etc. So why put anybody in such a position.

This is not intended as a dig. But a request that you have more respect for those who run this MB and those who use it and stop flaunting things in our faces that we are not permitted to discuss.

[RevidgeBlue]

But nobody wants to discuss facts. This thread in 16 hours:

Replies 144

Views 4333

Barclays Mortgage or Charge Thread - which is undiluted fact and should be a concern, in 10 days:

Replies 77

Views 3917

Which for me suggests when posters with concerns which are in the public domain fact, which lead to questions with regard to the current funding of BRFC very few people give a monkey's or appear to wish to discuss it.

If a concerned poster hints at what is perceived by others as "inside info" but is unable to back it up for a variety of reasons it warrants an entire thread devoted to complaining about such posts.

A quick bit of maths suggests to me there is approximately 30 times more interest in criticising folk who are trying to highlight areas of concern. I do agree it does get a bit heavy on occassions.

This simply confirms for me what I have thought for years. The vast majority of football fans only want to hear positives until such time as a huge negative, like relegation or going bust, has become an incontrovertible fact.

So what do people want fact, fantasy, rumour or hints. If the demand is for fact, which is the implication of requesting evidence, I hope we never see another Transfer Window thread again because such a thread is usually full of rumour, hint and fantasy with very, very little that is factual. Oh but then it was reported on SSN....................................

Paul, I have little doubt you posted the thread about the new mortgage with a view to it being another means by which everyone could criticise the new owners, but I have absolutely no problem with you doing that because the information is genuine and concrete and being brought out into the open. In fact I applaud it. Quite the opposite of the "I know something you don't know and it's incredibly bad but I can't tell anyone what it is" routine.

As for your thread goes I thought it was debated in quite some detail at the time. I must confess I've absolutely no idea whether the existence of the new mortgage is either incredibly sinister or entirely innocent or somewhere inbetween.

Genuine question: Have you attempted to contact Tom Finn or anyone else at the Club for a simple explanation as to WHY the new charge has been taken out?

[RevidgeBlue]

Some things turned out to be true and the authors got an absolute hammering on this mb and from other sources for discussing it- nicko and me discussing last October that there would be a change of chairman and Jerome Anderson would run the club if Venky's bought it is one such instance.

But Jerome Anderson is not Chairman and is not running the Club no matter how much you try to sensationalise or over-egg his involvment.

[colin]

This is a great thread.

I've logged on and the heat is so good I've been able to turn off my heating. I've had to turn up the lighting though.

Carry on folks. Chin chin!!

Cheers

Colin

[philipl]

But Jerome Anderson is not Chairman and is not running the Club no matter how much you try to sensationalise or over-egg his involvment.

We have no Chairman and who do you think was running the club from the moment Mrs Desai told John Williams "to toe the line"?

[deryck guyler's spoon]

We have no Chairman and who do you think was running the club from the moment Mrs Desai told John Williams "to toe the line"?

Diego Maradona?