[Archived] Back Or Sack?

[thenodrog]

I don't think at any point this season we've looked like contenders but you never know we could sneak in

Its a long shot now and sadly but typically I think there will be a number of members who would be well miffed if we managed it.

[JBiz]

I guess for those who don't attend (who seem to be Bowyer's biggest supporters) the comparative golden silence, due to lack of cirque du boardroom histrionics enabling focus to only be on football matters (and ignoring the spectre of debt), could be interpreted as 'stability' on the field.

So if people don't see it your way they must not attend? That's bordering on what a number of people are sick of on this website- blatant attempts to wind up.

The simple truth is that our season review is always going to be subjective. People see different things without agenda.

Pre season - expectations got so low due to a period of falling down the spiral. In hindsight we shouldn't have dropped so many points and with those draws from wins and losses from draws- we've ended up just outside the play offs.

It's easy to look at this as failure but that seems insanely short sighted to me. Short sighted because it doesn't take into account anything other than negative aspects of the past 12 months.

As short sighted as ignoring the development in the squad over that time. Expensive old players out to pasture replaced by younger hungry inexperienced players. As short sighted as not seeing why a group of players like this may be inconsistent. (Beyond just blaming the manager)

As short sighted as saying "not even the most ardent supporter of bowyer could say we are stable financially"which was the most ridiculous post I've seen here for a while- how on earth is 80m of debt brought about by owners idiocy a stick to hit GB? Also why can't I be a supporter of a manager yet understand that the club needs to sort its debt levels? Think before typing.

Flip side of the coin, some great posts- particularly Philip. Made some great points, it's just a shame we don't have any real directors at the club. Rogue Charlatan shelfie doesn't count.

[Black Burn]

You know what, I think a lot of the people who want Bowyer out aren't doing it out of ill intentions, or because they are being mean and nasty. I think they are just venting their frustrations that their expectations are not met. They just want our team to win, to get promoted, and when those expectations aren't fulfilled, they feel frsutrated and angry, and so they feel a need to vent. In this case, the object they direct their frustration onto is the manager, Bowyer.

I noticed this isn't just restricted to Blackburn Rovers fans. All fans want their managers out if their teams don't meet expectations. David Moyes, Sam Allardyce, Arsene Wenger, Owen Coyle, etc. Probably the only fans happy with their managers are those whose teams met or surpass expectations such as Sean Dyche, Brendan Rodgers, Nigel Pearson.

It's a universal thing. Everyone feels the need to vent, and hence the manager gets the brunt of it. I think it's stupid for me to argue and defend Bowyer when I realize that people aren't wanting him out because of ill intentions, but rather they feel the need to vent. I should let them vent rather than pile on the steam.

[Blue blood]

You know what, I think a lot of the people who want Bowyer out aren't doing it out of ill intentions, or because they are being mean and nasty. I think they are just venting their frustrations that their expectations are not met. They just want our team to win, to get promoted, and when those expectations aren't fulfilled, they feel frsutrated and angry, and so they feel a need to vent. In this case, the object they direct their frustration onto is the manager, Bowyer.

I noticed this isn't just restricted to Blackburn Rovers fans. All fans want their managers out if their teams don't meet expectations. David Moyes, Sam Allardyce, Arsene Wenger, Owen Coyle, etc. Probably the only fans happy with their managers are those whose teams met or surpass expectations such as Sean Dyche, Brendan Rodgers, Nigel Pearson.

It's a universal thing. Everyone feels the need to vent, and hence the manager gets the brunt of it. I think it's stupid for me to argue and defend Bowyer when I realize that people aren't wanting him out because of ill intentions, but rather they feel the need to vent. I should let them vent rather than pile on the steam.

Agree for most (if nto all?) it's not about ill will. But for me it's not about frustrations or expectations either - although it's good to aim high, and it has been a frustrating season. I'm sure most people would agree with that! Rather it's about what is best for the club. And given the financial situation and based on this season we need promotion next season (ideally this) or we will be in such a financial mess we'll do well to stay in the championship.

Just to clarify I'm not trying to be sensationalist, and I would love for Bowyer to get us promoted, he seems most of the time a decent chap. However i don't see that happening, and as the club needs promotion, I'd get rid.

Misunderstanding, no, I didn't say we were financially stable, I said the finances are normalizing under the current boardroom with their cost cutting measures. That doesn't mean the 50 million debt will disappear somehow.

And the source wasn't from Pune. It was from interviews with Shaw and Bowyer regarding the debt.

About underachieving, you do realize that Bowyer practically rebuilt half the team, right? He got rid of Danny Murphy, Nuno Gomes, Morten Gamst Pedersen, the Portuguese contingent, sent Bradley Orr and David Goodwillie on loan, with 12 or more players sent on loan by January, and brought in virtually an entire team (Alan Judge, Alex Marrow, Simon Eastwood, Tom Cairney, Tommy Spur, Corey Evans, Ben Marshall, Matt Kilagallon, Craig Conway, Rudy Gestede, Michael Keane, with the latter three only coming in during January transfer window). Did you expect all these players to gel and immediately form a promotion unit within the space of one season?

And as I have pointed out with my previous post, even experienced managers need time to achieve promotion. Mick McCarthy took 2 seasons for Wolverhampton, 3 seasons for Sunderland, and even if he succeeds with Ipswich, it will be his 2nd season. Malky McKay took 2 seasons to get Cardiff promoted. If Harry Rednapp's Queen Park Rangers get knocked out of the playoffs, should Rednapp be sacked, or should he be given another season? People are expecting miracles from a rookie manager when even the experienced managers need time to win promotion. Underachieving with a newly put together squad where half of them have just only arrived in the summer?

What's worse is that some of you are expecting a challenge for promotion immediately after a season where we almost got relegated. Neal, you said many would agree with you that we would have underachieved. I don't know, I was pretty sure "experts", pundits, other Rovers fans (not from Brfcs but from other websites and networking sites) expected a mediocre mid-table finish this season, about 10th to 12th, which we've managed to achieve so far. From what I see, people are mostly surprised that we're still within a shout of the playoffs. Especially on Ewood Park's Finest Reloaded, or Vital. Even the neutrals agree, they had us down for a mid-table finish rather than challenging from playoffs. I'm not doubting your words, but I'm just saying I see a different world of expectations from my side.

People might have me down as a Bowyer supporter, but actually I'm not so much of a supporter of Bowyer than I am a supporter of not sacking. I hate seeing managers get sacked from their jobs unless he's Steve Kean. I would have given Michael Appleton or Henning Berg more time either. Well, maybe Appleton not so much because he clearly dragged us into a relegation dogfight, but I would have wanted Berg to manage longer. That's because I'm an advocate of stability and not sacking the manager, and not because I particularly like Berg or Bowyer.

Every manager has his flaws. That applies even to Jose Mourinho or Alex Ferguson. The problem is people having high expectations, and when those expectations aren't met, they blame the manager. Look at poor David Moyes. I wanted him to stay, and I think he just needed more time to put his style across. Only one team can win (or in this case, only three teams can get promoted). That doesn't mean the other 21 teams should sack their managers every summer just because they don't achieve promotion.

Thanks for the clarification and well argued post. It's good to get what you're saying, and you argue well. I think for the most part, the disagreement I have with you is that it's not based on expectation, but need. I think we need promotion asap, and this is driving making a managerial change. I'm not wild about Venkys making that decision, but I'm pretty certain Bowyer isn't going to get us promoted, so we have to look again. Added to which we've not actually tried the plan of appointing experience, but we've seen inexperience not be enough repeatedly. There's no certainty but I'm confident with an experienced manager with tactical nous we could do very well in this division.

I would say that the idea that the finances are normalizing is nonsensical. We're getting reduced parachute payments, with a huge squad, with a number of lucrative long term contracts for deadwood. Heck, even without them, our wage bill must be pretty eye-watering. Not to mention the significant drop in fans, sponsorship, TV money, the expenditure of the academy and the rest of the infrastructure. And of course parachute payments - even in the highly unlikely event the finances are normalizing this year (and I'm not sure how they can) then how are they going to normalize with another £8 million drop in income? As I said before I think we'd struggle to cope with that financial challenge alone, let alone the rest of the finances, or the huge debt we now have. Even if Shaw stated the finances are normalizing, I cannot see any evidence as to where or how this can be the case.

I think it's important to remember that all fans want the best for the club, though we vary in our opinions as to what the solution should be. Thanks to Venkys we're between a rock and a hard place. They've pushed us to the brink of financial ruin, creating an immediacy, more than normal in football for results, for a manager to be a success, yet at the same time people have little faith in them appointing the right manager. Neither option is without considerable risk - all thanks to Venkys.

I'll stop there, as what does get me wound up, is thinking about why we're in this sorry mess and who is responsible. It just highlights the effect Venkys has on us will last a long, long time

[rovers11]

He has to stay. Done an excellent job this season and has us on the right track for a promotion push next season. Why de-rail that by sacking him?!

I suspect a few on here would be happy if he got sacked but 90% of Rovers fans would be absolutely furious. Won't happen though, he'll be here next season.

[47er]

Its a long shot now and sadly but typically I think there will be a number of members who would be well miffed if we managed it.

Can't believe you wrote that. No Rovers supporter would be miffed if we made it into the play-offs.

Astonished maybe.

[Amo]

Can't believe you wrote that.

I wish I shared your incredulity. All too predictable, sadly.

[ABBEY]

Can't believe you wrote that. No Rovers supporter would be miffed if we made it into the play-offs.

Astonished maybe.

the only thing that would miff me is venkys getting loads of wonga.

[onlyonejackwalker]

Can't believe you wrote that. No Rovers supporter would be miffed if we made it into the play-offs.

Astonished maybe.

Exactly. Those that childishly suggest fans would be happy with failure do so purely to demean others opinions and add supposed credence and credibility for their own view. It's boring and predictable with no substance.

Meanwhile from others some very long posts debating the subject and good arguments put forward on both sides.

Can't help feeling the debate is being over engineered however.

Is Bowyer the most suitably qualified option and best available candidate from a world wide audience for the top job at Blackburn Rovers? If you think yes, then happy days. If not, you are bound to have an alternative view and question the thinking behind keeping him on.

[DE.]

Is Bowyer the most suitably qualified option and best available candidate from a world wide audience that Venky's are likely to select for the top job at Blackburn Rovers? If you think yes, then happy days. If not, you are bound to have an alternative view and question the thinking behind keeping him on.

Changed this a little to reflect a more accurate version of what I imagine most people's stances actually are

[Tom]

If you are so sure they would make a bad choice does that indicate you think they made a bad choice with bowyer?

If not and you think they made a good appointment then do you not think they could do it again?

[Stuart]

If you are so sure they would make a bad choice does that indicate you think they made a bad choice with bowyer?

If not and you think they made a good appointment then do you not think they could do it again?

Whilst I agree with your position, Tom, I think the response you will get will be 'luck'.

[Tom]

I actually agree I was just playing devils advocate

You never know they may stumble upon a decent one by accident, for example Sherwood may have worked out or may not have

[tugayislegend]

Back, Back, Back! Back Bowyer all the way!

Tactically he still has A LOT to learn, but I feel he is improving as a manager. I would like to make a couple of brief points:

Firstly their is a vast improvement in the overall team this year compared to last year. Martin Olsson has been adequately replaced by Tommy Spurr likewise Kilgallon has replaced Dann. Conway 8 assists (100k), Gestede 10 goals (300k), Marshall, Evans, Cairney have been sensational siginings! Yes he has signed some rubbish players too, but the players mentioned here are absolute top draw and i believe will come good next year. This was our team at the end of last season:

Sandomierski, Dann, Kane, Hanley, Williamson, Morris, Jones, Rhodes, King, Nuno Gomes, Goodwillie (pedersen sub)

Secondly a lot of people have forgotten that Bowyer did bring in a lot of players and it takes time for the players to get to know each other, hence we had a slow start to the season. We are seeing the best of bowyers team now. I am correct in saying we are the ONLY team in the Championship who have not lost a game if you look at the last 10 games.

We have picked up 18 points in our last 10 games that is the equivalent of what is needed to go up automatically ! (1.8 points per game)

We have one of the youngest teams in the championship, this team is ONLY going to get better next year ! COYB

[Stuart]

A lot depends on who a manager is replacing.

Berg was given a chance - albeit briefly - because he followed Kean. To some degree Appleton and Bowyer were given the benefit of the doubt for the exact same reason, although Appleton's abysmal record means that Bowyer's stands up well in comparison.

The arguments in favour of Bowyer are not that he is a good manager but that given the criteria he is the best we can hope for (because of some concocted notion of stability). The criteria being that any manager will have to be cheap and be prepared to 'toe the line' (still can't believe that disgraceful line was used by Desai in reference to Williams) - much like any other factory manager nursing young chicks in the Venkys empire.

But, as always, the question is 'what is in it for Venkys?'. As far as we fans can see the only possible reason would be the money (and prestige) associated with promotion to the PL. It's not as though they are decent people who care about Rovers and it's fans. If they were, they would have apologised for what they have done to the club. Or for what they did under the advice of others. This could very easily have taken place behind closed doors with the FF, or simply a communication via the club PR guru. Instead we get a 'let's move on' by proxy, via Twitter of all places.

So if it is about the PL then why not give themselves the best chance to get there? Will we really have any chance of top two next season under Bowyer? Play-offs are a lottery.

Or did the sale of Phil Jones make them think there was more value in developing players to sell for big money? It might explain the position of Bowyer, the average age of our squad, and the need to play Lowe at every opportunity. It's not a new idea, the Walker Trust did it for years but they could charge stupid money for "Premier League players".

Or is it that they are simply paying the bills out of some weird sense of duty?

What a crap position as a football fan to be in. Hoping that our club is going to remain solvent whilst putting our trust in a bunch of careless, clueless clowns to look after it, and that an inexperienced, attritional manager, is the best man for the job (from Venkys perspective) because he is prepared to fly to Pune once a month.

Is it any wonder people aren't happy?

[JBiz]

Is Bowyer the most suitably qualified option and best available candidate from a world wide audience for the top job at Blackburn Rovers? If you think yes, then happy days. If not, you are bound to have an alternative view and question the thinking behind keeping him on.

If the question was as black and white as that then sure we'd think we deserve someone with credentials- but the reason this discussion rolls on is down to indisputable factors affecting the debate. How much do you value upheaval when discussing the credence of GBs pitfalls?

Personally, I think he deserves a lot more breathing room than he is getting. I fully understand the fans (we have left) venting- but it has to be appropriate. The early boos home to Yeovil really showed a negative tide in our midst just itching to get out.

I hate talking old news but we have to learn from history. The last time I saw fans discussing and booing due to negative tactics was 09/10. I didn't understand it then, and I still don't.

The famous "Arsene Wenger" moan after losing has propelled a stigma regarding styles of play. You have to rise above this @#/?. It is proven throughout the world that teams need to be able to do both the straightforward and the fancy in order to be truly great.

I have never seen a GB team set up to lose. I've seen conservative lineups against teams but I have also been blown away by some of the attacking stuff we've played.

I certainly don't agree with a few comments of "negative bowyer" or "boreyer"

[Tom]

Do you not agree that sitting back and 'protecting a point' against Yeovil at home is negative?

[JBiz]

A lot depends on who a manager is replacing.

Berg was given a chance - albeit briefly - because he followed Kean. To some degree Appleton and Bowyer were given the benefit of the doubt for the exact same reason, although Appleton's abysmal record means that Bowyer's stands up well in comparison.

The arguments in favour of Bowyer are not that he is a good manager but that given the criteria he is the best we can hope for (because of some concocted notion of stability). The criteria being that any manager will have to be cheap and be prepared to 'toe the line' (still can't believe that disgraceful line was used by Desai in reference to Williams) - much like any other factory manager nursing young chicks in the Venkys empire.

But, as always, the question is 'what is in it for Venkys?'. As far as we fans can see the only possible reason would be the money (and prestige) associated with promotion to the PL. It's not as though they are decent people who care about Rovers and it's fans. If they were, they would have apologised for what they have done to the club. Or for what they did under the advice of others. This could very easily have taken place behind closed doors with the FF, or simply a communication via the club PR guru. Instead we get a 'let's move on' by proxy, via Twitter of all places.

So if it is about the PL then why not give themselves the best chance to get there? Will we really have any chance of top two next season under Bowyer? Play-offs are a lottery.

Or did the sale of Phil Jones make them think there was more value in developing players to sell for big money? It might explain the position of Bowyer, the average age of our squad, and the need to play Lowe at every opportunity. It's not a new idea, the Walker Trust did it for years but they could charge stupid money for "Premier League players".

Or is it that they are simply paying the bills out of some weird sense of duty?

What a crap position as a football fan to be in. Hoping that our club is going to remain solvent whilst putting our trust in a bunch of careless, clueless clowns to look after it, and that an inexperienced, attritional manager, is the best man for the job (from Venkys perspective) because he is prepared to fly to Pune once a month.

Is it any wonder people aren't happy?

Good post. I agree in the main but you miss linking all the mistakes behind the scenes with logical decisions moving forward. How can it be expected to change without a full change of ownership and back room staff?

[AllRoverAsia]

A lot depends on who a manager is replacing.

Berg was given a chance - albeit briefly - because he followed Kean. To some degree Appleton and Bowyer were given the benefit of the doubt for the exact same reason, although Appleton's abysmal record means that Bowyer's stands up well in comparison.

The arguments in favour of Bowyer are not that he is a good manager but that given the criteria he is the best we can hope for (because of some concocted notion of stability). The criteria being that any manager will have to be cheap and be prepared to 'toe the line' (still can't believe that disgraceful line was used by Desai in reference to Williams) - much like any other factory manager nursing young chicks in the Venkys empire.

But, as always, the question is 'what is in it for Venkys?'. As far as we fans can see the only possible reason would be the money (and prestige) associated with promotion to the PL. It's not as though they are decent people who care about Rovers and it's fans. If they were, they would have apologised for what they have done to the club. Or for what they did under the advice of others. This could very easily have taken place behind closed doors with the FF, or simply a communication via the club PR guru. Instead we get a 'let's move on' by proxy, via Twitter of all places.

So if it is about the PL then why not give themselves the best chance to get there? Will we really have any chance of top two next season under Bowyer? Play-offs are a lottery.

Or did the sale of Phil Jones make them think there was more value in developing players to sell for big money? It might explain the position of Bowyer, the average age of our squad, and the need to play Lowe at every opportunity. It's not a new idea, the Walker Trust did it for years but they could charge stupid money for "Premier League players".

Or is it that they are simply paying the bills out of some weird sense of duty?

What a crap position as a football fan to be in. Hoping that our club is going to remain solvent whilst putting our trust in a bunch of careless, clueless clowns to look after it, and that an inexperienced, attritional manager, is the best man for the job (from Venkys perspective) because he is prepared to fly to Pune once a month.

Is it any wonder people aren't happy?

It would not suprise me if that is the case..........which in itself is scary as its based on the crap of 'face saving'

[JBiz]

Do you not agree that sitting back and 'protecting a point' against Yeovil at home is negative?

Personally I saw us trying to force a goal but having no luck or guile (on that day)

[Tom]

Personally I saw us trying to force a goal but having no luck or guile (on that day)

Well according to our own player the instruction was to protect the point

[JBiz]

I didn't see or hear that. Was it Robbo? The only thing I would perceive as protecting was when we had a corner at 90 mins he should have gone up as Wigan away proved a few years back

[roverandout]

when venkys have eventually keaned off, we will finally get a proper manager, that's the only thing I have to hang onto right now!!!

[Stuart]

Good post. I agree in the main but you miss linking all the mistakes behind the scenes with logical decisions moving forward. How can it be expected to change without a full change of ownership and back room staff?

The trouble with the 'moving forward' argument is that we are suppose to assume that we can move forward with Bowyer but have no chance of moving forward under anyone else. Surely Venkys are involved in both futures? One works (apparently by accident) one doesn't.

They have 'learnt from mistakes' we hear. They have 'put the right people' in important positions in the Ewood hierarchy. They have stopped taking advice from 'the wrong people'. These MUST be the prerequisite for any assumption that Bowyer has any chance of success.

But if they are the prerequisites then that should enable the club to select a new manager.

If we accept that premise then we are back to 'who would work with Venkys?'.

The problem is that the longer we wait to ask that question, the lower our stock falls. Right now we would be promotion 'hopefuls' for next season - the right manager could make us 'contenders'.

[DE.]

And the wrong manager could relegate us. Easy to forget how close we were last season.

I'm also interested in where this Robbo quote came from - was it in the LT? A journo? Or did some bloke tweet it?