[Archived] Rovers V Bolton 28Th August

[thenodrog]

Who knows JAL? However for 1 Songo I could prob show you a dozen or more cash cows signed during the Kean era.

How anyone can make such a comparison beggars belief.

[Neal]

If you sack them in August it begs the question of why the change wasn't made in the summer and why give that manager the window to bring in players who a new manager might not fancy but is unable to change until January.

The question is totally moot though considering the window is pretty much over, it simply does not matter anymore. There are other more serious issues than wondering why he wasn't sacked in the summer. A lot of people who support the manager tell me "we are where we are", well where we are and what we're seeing is not good enough and regardless if it's August or May, raining or shining, hot or cold, the bloke is simply not good enough or wanted by the fans.

[DE.]

Strange comment? Nothing starnge about it. Not one of those players you mention save perhaps Rhodes and Getsede would have got within a country mile of the 2001 promotion squad... and that squad only squeaked up in 2nd place just in front of Sam's BWFC assembled with a fraction of the value in our squad . Why do I keep having to say this?

You have to keep saying it because it's utterly irrelevant and doesn't mean anything. 2001 was 14 years ago, things have changed.

To indulge you, though - we aren't talking about automatic promotion here, we're talking about the playoffs, something Ipswich achieved after spending practically nothing last season. How many of their players would have gotten into our 2001 side? How many of Blackpool's players from their side that got promoted after finishing 6th? The measure of a team is how their manager gets them playing as a unit. Individually they don't have to be top class, they just need to be well prepared, confident and set out in a way that maximises their strengths and minimises their weaknesses.

The Championship is a division full of bang average players. The difference is the management of those players, something we will always fall short of as long as we have Bowyer at the helm.

[Neal]

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[JAL]

Who knows JAL? However for 1 Songo I could prob show you a dozen or more cash cows signed during the Kean era.

How anyone can make such a comparison beggars belief.

He might not have been multi million pounds but all the same he wasn't a footballer for this level.Did he not have the same agent as Bradley Orr?

Why bring in TWO goalkeepers then promote the youth keeper above these.

[Mike Graham]

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[AllRoverAsia]

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Beat me to it. I was just going to send the same.

Sent from my PC using just my todger big thump on my right hand.

[Parsonblue]

The question is totally moot though considering the window is pretty much over, it simply does not matter anymore. There are other more serious issues than wondering why he wasn't sacked in the summer. A lot of people who support the manager tell me "we are where we are", well where we are and what we're seeing is not good enough and regardless if it's August or May, raining or shining, hot or cold, the bloke is simply not good enough or wanted by the fans.

You say he is not wanted by the fans and yet accept that a lot of people support the manager. As with all things in football it's a matter of opinions. Some, like yourself, want him out now whilst others, like myself, want to give him longer. However, at the end of the day the only people who will make the decision will be those whose pockets will have to fund the change. Ultimately I suspect that results in September and October will go a long way in deciding the fate of the manager as will the financial situation. Do the owners want to pay off yet another manager? Are they prepared to get rid of the whole backroom staff if a new manager said he wanted to bring in his own people or will the owners insist any new manager works with existing staff. Are the owners prepared to settle for a few more years of Championship football in a bid to try to get the wages and expenditure under control and would a new manager accept that approach?

I suspect that there are any number of points to take into consideration before a change is made. Clearly, as I've said before, if you become adrift then it becomes a matter of urgency but at the moment I can understand why the owners might want to adopt a wait and see approach.

[DE.]

I suspect that there are any number of points to take into consideration before a change is made. Clearly, as I've said before, if you become adrift then it becomes a matter of urgency but at the moment I can understand why the owners might want to adopt a wait and see approach.

Ideally Parson you make the change before you become adrift!

[Feniscowles Blue]

I can understand why the owners might want to adopt a wait and see approach.

wait and see? That's like saying we don't know what's likely to happen. Well I know promotion isn't happening as he couldn't get us in play offs with Gestede, King, Cairney and a motivated JR. And now to cap it all off, Boro/Hull value him at 12m but Gaz don't really want him and our only premier league quality player (BM) obviously wants out.. The guy has run us virtually to relegation certainties, but you want give him a further 15 games to cement us in the dogfight.......?

[Amo]

Nah, let's wait until Bowyer has us well and truly stuck in the brown stuff. That would seem like the logical thing to do.

[Hasta]

With consecutive away games at Fulham and QPR coming up, we may well be bottom and at least a win away from safety by our next game.

I could easily foresee a situation where we are bottom in October and about 5 points off safety and certain people would still be calling for more time.

Parson - If we didn't win a game in September, would your opinion have changed?

[ABBEY]

At the end of the day every manager usually bites the dust at some point and Bowyer will be no different. Personally, I believe he has done a good job in the previous two seasons and so am prepared to give him longer than five matches this campaign before passing judgement. If, by the end of October, we are in the bottom three and in danger of being cut adrift then clearly things will be different but I've never been a fan of sacking managers in August. If you sack them in August it begs the question of why the change wasn't made in the summer and why give that manager the window to bring in players who a new manager might not fancy but is unable to change until January.

scenario time

would you rather be say 12 points adrift in October with Bowyer

or

would you rather sack bowyer now and be 2 points off a play off spot

**DISCLAIMER**

Before the usual culprits jump down my throat its not truth , its not fact & its not 100%

[tomphil]

Could be a conspiracy though ...

[Stuart]

Ideally Parson you make the change before you become adrift!

100%.

Don't get sucked in DE. Waiting until it's too late is part of the strategy (and when I say strategy, I mean in a Bowyer trying to mastermind a draw kind of way, rather than anything more conspiratorial). At that point the tune will change to "who would come in now", "there's no point making a change now, it's too late", and who could forget old faithful "we are where we are".

Those backing Bowyer are those who like the guy personally and think he's doing his best at an honest job, and they don't care if we are relegated. They will still be there and can bemoan the fact that another few thousand "not real fans" have deserted us. It could be argued that real fans are leaving because they are sick of being ignored whilst having to watch worse and worse fayre every match, listening to the same five scripted phrases.

Surely there is something at Rovers still worth fighting for? Shouting "Bowyer Out", if that's how the next few weeks pan out, should be seen as the desperate cries of people who still want the best for Rovers rather than ingrates to be shouted down by the (fan-blaming) hardcore: "just get behind the lads FFS". A passionless, status quo-craving, don't-make-a-fuss cliché in support of a passionless manager.

There comes a time when one has to get behind the badge rather than those wearing it.

"FFS".

[elwaxo]

i watched the bolton game on sky (i dont watch many games these days living in another country as i do) and the comments of the guests went along the lines of 'the players really like bowyer, he's a nice man' etc etc.... now, in my book this isnt a good thing... nobody fearing for their place in the side, easy relaxed atmos... and it shows on the pitch, winners dont have it easy!!!

[DE.]

100%.

Don't get sucked in DE. Waiting until it's too late is part of the strategy (and when I say strategy, I mean in a Bowyer trying to mastermind a draw kind of way, rather than anything more conspiratorial). At that point the tune will change to "who would come in now", "there's no point making a change now, it's too late", and who could forget old faithful "we are where we are".

Those backing Bowyer are those who like the guy personally and think he's doing his best at an honest job, and they don't care if we are relegated. They will still be there and can bemoan the fact that another few thousand "not real fans" have deserted us. It could be argued that real fans are leaving because they are sick of being ignored whilst having to watch worse and worse fayre every match, listening to the same five scripted phrases.

Surely there is something at Rovers still worth fighting for? Shouting "Bowyer Out", if that's how the next few weeks pan out, should be seen as the desperate cries of people who still want the best for Rovers rather than ingrates to be shouted down by the (fan-blaming) hardcore: "just get behind the lads FFS". A passionless, status quo-craving, don't-make-a-fuss cliché in support of a passionless manager.

There comes a time when one has to get behind the badge rather than those wearing it.

"FFS".

My biggest concern is that, in some fans eyes, Bowyer seems to be accountable for nothing - which begs the question, why have a manager at all?

History is being revised very quickly to try and paint his tenure in a better light. FFP is talked about as if it's been an issue ever since he took over, suddenly mid-table finishes in the last two seasons were good or as expected, the squad was suddenly not very good, and so on.

I have no issue with anybody saying they believe Bowyer will keep us up. I don't necessarily understand that view but differing opinions are what makes message boards worth visiting. My issue lies more with revisionist history and absolving Bowyer of any blame on account of Venky's/FFP/the players/Shaw/the weather/bad luck/injuries, blah blah blah...

He's the manager and he's responsible for what happens on the pitch, bottom line. The difficulty of his circumstances are exaggerated to a massive degree IMO, and it fosters a sympathy which I no longer think he deserves.

[aletheia]

Neil/TonyG/Parson

I’m sure if you all got in a room, you’d be pals.

Parson

Are the owners prepared to settle for a few more years of Championship football in a bid to try to get the wages and expenditure under control and would a new manager accept that approach?

Yep, seems like it. Only trouble, there is dropping down the leagues. The GB thing seems fairly simple to me. Nice bloke, hand tied but whilst acknowledging all the constraints under which he has to operate, many feel his abilities fall short. Having maintained his job at the end of summer, I guess the debate is how bad does it have to get before you would relieve him of his services.

Theno

What a scallywag you are. Delfons? Powder puff. Flatters to deceive etc etc. As for Rhodes, well you overstate your case but I think I agree that he is perhaps too specialised. I mean you have to play a certain way to bring out the best of his abilities and we certainly aren’t capable of that. A more straightforward Gestede kind of player needed (but Brown ain’t it.)

Lowe? Certainly a poor game. But Duffy chewing him out? That’s a laugh given his pub-like heading of the ball and distribution. Classic gobber who needs to look to his own performances. Hanley just ignores him. Hanley playing well so far, despite his characteristic numpty moment with that yellow card.

Anyhow, all been said really. Simple game and all that. Score at one end and keep ‘em out at the other. Not confident we can do either. Add in the other ingredients for success –money, good man management, tactics, buying, sound admin and corporate structure – no, can’t see those either.

Ergo, long hard season. Fun at a premium. Cheers.

[Gav]

I think the problem with many posters on here is that they simply don't see, or acknowledge the bigger picture DE, yes the buck stops with the manager, its his side, his tactics and his responsibility, but many other factors play a part.

The biggest factor for the past couple of seasons is the dumbing down of the playing side and Shaw/Venkys hiding behind FFP, which despite bringing in absolute dross we still went into embargo. Once we come out of the embargo we'll hear rhetoric like 'we can't buy xxx because we have to comply with FFP' its a smoke screen to continue the dumbing down of the playing side, nothing more nothing less.

I strongly believe Jose Mourinho would struggle to get this side promoted because they're very very poor players, maybe he could bring in better players on free transfers, who knows, but the current playing side is the worst I've seen in 30yrs+

The club cannot progress until Venkys leave, thats the stark reality of our situation, because they'll not invest in either players, managers or football people to run the club.

So keep blaming the manager if it helps

[Feniscowles Blue]

You could give GB £20m to spend and we would still not get up

[RevidgeBlue]

Reliably informed last Wednesday at the BFC/BRFC golf day by that it was 10m plus 4m possible add ons. Unfair to judge on one performance of course but it's still a lot of money given his showing on Friday night. The ex player who disclosed that also agrees with me (and just about every other Manager in the land) that JR doesn't possess Premier League quality.

btw GB is criticised very unfairly and unfortunately frequently on a personal basis too. His defenders frequently cite him being saddled with expensive dollopers, having to reduce the bill, outside interference, embargo etc but has anybody ever thought that he has to play a striker that he doesn't really want? Put another way would he be running a club under a crippling embargo if he had been allowed to sell Rhodes to Hull last season?

You may well be right, since GB was moping around like Kevin the teenager when the owners blocked JR's move to Hull 12 months ago I've always had the sense that GB has never really valued JR as highly as he should, maybe even resents him slightly, because he didn't sign him. Any half decent manager worth their salt would have been counting their blessings to have 2 such prolific marksmen in their side and led us triumphantly to promotion, or a play off slot at the absolute minimum.

However, GB was hanging his hat on Rhodes returning in an interview before the other night's game and I think the penny is finally dropping even with him that JR staying and having a reasonable season and returning 20-25 goals is the only thing which might save this hugely bloated ragtag squad he has assembled in a random and piecemeal basis from relegation under his inept leadership.

[Stuart]

I strongly believe Jose Mourinho would struggle to get this side promoted because they're very very poor players, maybe he could bring in better players on free transfers, who knows, but the current playing side is the worst I've seen in 30yrs+

Bunkum!

This is the kind of stupid comment (sorry Gav, but bringing Mourinho into any argument is crass stupidity) that is keeping Bowyer out of a tracksuit and in a blazer.

[DE.]

I think the problem with many posters on here is that they simply don't see, or acknowledge the bigger picture DE, yes the buck stops with the manager, its his side, his tactics and his responsibility, but many other factors play a part.

The biggest factor for the past couple of seasons is the dumbing down of the playing side and Shaw/Venkys hiding behind FFP, which despite bringing in absolute dross we still went into embargo. Once we come out of the embargo we'll hear rhetoric like 'we can't buy xxx because we have to comply with FFP' its a smoke screen to continue the dumbing down of the playing side, nothing more nothing less.

I strongly believe Jose Mourinho would struggle to get this side promoted because they're very very poor players, maybe he could bring in better players on free transfers, who knows, but the current playing side is the worst I've seen in 30yrs+

The club cannot progress until Venkys leave, thats the stark reality of our situation, because they'll not invest in either players, managers or football people to run the club.

So keep blaming the manager if it helps

Of course other factors play a part, but revision of history has nothing to do with that, and you even have an example of it in your post:

"the biggest factor for the past couple of seasons is the dumbing down of the playing side "

We only entered an embargo in January and only started selling players as a result of that this summer.

In the last two seasons Venky's have paid off dressing room cancers like Orr, Best, Etuhu, Murphy, etc and allowed Bowyer to bring in the likes of Duffy, Marshall, Steele, Cairney, Conway, Evans, Gestede and Baptiste whilst rejecting huge bids for Rhodes. I'd say our team last season was the strongest since we've been in the Championship, and with a better manager could have easily taken Ipswich's spot in 6th.

[Jock]

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[RevidgeBlue]

You say he is not wanted by the fans and yet accept that a lot of people support the manager. As with all things in football it's a matter of opinions. Some, like yourself, want him out now whilst others, like myself, want to give him longer. However, at the end of the day the only people who will make the decision will be those whose pockets will have to fund the change. Ultimately I suspect that results in September and October will go a long way in deciding the fate of the manager as will the financial situation. Do the owners want to pay off yet another manager? Are they prepared to get rid of the whole backroom staff if a new manager said he wanted to bring in his own people or will the owners insist any new manager works with existing staff. Are the owners prepared to settle for a few more years of Championship football in a bid to try to get the wages and expenditure under control and would a new manager accept that approach?

I suspect that there are any number of points to take into consideration before a change is made. Clearly, as I've said before, if you become adrift then it becomes a matter of urgency but at the moment I can understand why the owners might want to adopt a wait and see approach.

You argue your case very well Parson but I think it's very risky to give him September and October come what may. I've just looked at the fixture list and that's another nine games which will have been and gone. Fourteen games in total and while it wouldn't be impossible for someone else to get us out of trouble at that point, you don't really want to be playing catch up even at that early stage because you've been cast adrift. As I said to chaddy last week IF the decision at the moment is that he gets more time (which I don't agree with) then the owners need to keep their options open and monitor the situation extremely closely on an individual match by match basis, at least until results have improved considerably by which time the manager would have earned himself some leeway.

However for me, he has to go now. He clearly should have gone imo last season in mid February by which time GB had managed to turn the remainder of the season into a dead rubber despite having a 40 goal strike force. That would have been a golden opportunity to get the new man in, allow him to assess the squad, and allow us to hit the ground running. Instead we still seem to be carrying out our pre-season preparation and experimentation 5 games into the season, and I'd wager he's still no nearer knowing what he should do.

However that golden window of opportunity was passed up last season, (no real surprise given the owner's track record) but a similar more limited opportunity now presents itself again. By getting rid of him now, two weeks of work can go into finding a replacement without any further damage occurring in terms of results in the meantime, and if they really got their act into gear he'd have a few days to work with the players before the next game.