Jon Dahl Tomasson - Officially No Longer Our Head Coach

[Sweaty Gussets]

2 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

The GB appointment is the surface difference from the TM reign.

So it all depends on if he has the executive power to hire and fire on the football side as he sees fit, or if the big decisions are still sent up the the owners’ man in the shadows…

Exactly my point, So if we assume he has the powers, (why else appoint him if not?) then the club has changed from the Mogga years. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Sweaty Gussets

[K-Hod]

12 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

It could we argued we are a different club to 6 months ago, at least structurally.  We now have a DoF in GB who is responsible for the footballing side. He's now JDT's boss. Before it seemed to be Waggott having oversight and making recommendations. 

So, lets see how things unravel if the team and results unravel (which may very well happen from now). GB may recommend pulling the trigger on JDT.

It also depends what the remit from the owners is. I've never believed this 'they don't want to get promoted' nonsense. JDT and GB have spelled it out quite a few times that the owners target is a self-sufficient Prem team. I suppose it just depends how long JDT has been given to deliver the 'project'. 

I wouldn’t say they don’t want promotion, but I don’t think it’s that much of a priority, despite where we are in the league. You can hear it when they’re talking more about adding value to the squad, than winning matches. Even JDT seemingly prioritising implementing his playing style over winning matches. I think it’s absolutely batshit that any football club would consider anything more important than winning matches tbh.

[Mattyblue]

4 minutes ago, Sweaty Gussets said:

Exactly my point, So if we assume he has the powers, (why else appoint him if not?) then the club has changed from the Mogga years. 

Maybe, maybe not. It’s been 12 years of this lot and we’ve had many ‘new dawns’ with new personnel, supposed  new structures, but it has always been window dressing and the real power has still stayed with their point man.

This quickly unravels like I feel it might and we’ll find out soon enough if it has actually changed down there…

[Sweaty Gussets]

3 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

I wouldn’t say they don’t want promotion, but I don’t think it’s that much of a priority, despite where we are in the league. You can hear it when they’re talking more about adding value to the squad, than winning matches. Even JDT seemingly prioritising implementing his playing style over winning matches. It’s absolutely batshit that any football club would consider anything more important than winning matches tbh.

GB appears to have full oversight and has been given the remit of developing players and getting the team promoted. It's down to JDT to get the results to get promotion, whilst at the same time developing the young lads by playing them in the first team. 

 Maybe JDT feels stymied by having to play players who aren't ready? (Phillips for example. I'd imagine Mola will be the next one dropped). Maybe JDT is making the point that part of the 'project' isn't necessarily helpful in him getting results? Or maybe it's  genuine acknowledgment that results will be inconsistent because of the need to play young players and that is how it will be going forward?

I agree with the premise though. It is batshit crazy developing players is prioritised over results. I just don't think that's happening. I think Venky's have looked at the Brentford model and decided to try and copy that, albeit by developing our own rather than moneyballing players from abroad (which isn't as easy post-Brexit). It's a tough ask for any manager, especially if JDT isn't actually any good at his job. 

 

 

 

 

[Mattyblue]

Think you maybe giving Venky’s a little too much credit if you think they are attempting to implement some kind of Brentford-esque master plan..

Edited December 11, 2022 by Mattyblue

[Sweaty Gussets]

20 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Maybe, maybe not. It’s been 12 years of this lot and we’ve had many ‘new dawns’ with new personnel, supposed  new structures, but it has always been window dressing and the real power has still stayed with their point man.

This quickly unravels like I feel it might and we’ll find out soon enough if it has actually changed down there…

We've never had a DoF before, in charge of the whole footballing operation. It's arguably the biggest footballing change in 12 years. Everyone was raving about it in the summer 'we're now run like a proper football club' etc. 

Of course, the proof will be in the pudding if/when it all goes tits up. 

[Mattyblue]

People *hoped* we would now be run like a proper football club. Appointing one bloke from Norwegian football wasn’t suddenly proof of anything.

[Sweaty Gussets]

3 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Think you maybe giving Venky’s a little too much credit if you think they are attempting to implement some kind of Brentford-esque master plan..

Not really. I could come up with that plan. It's not difficult to see the merits. What I'm not doing is giving Venky's enough credit to think they are capable of pulling it off. Big difference. 

[Sweaty Gussets]

1 minute ago, Mattyblue said:

People *hoped* we would now be run like a proper football club. Appointing one bloke from Norwegian football wasn’t suddenly proof of anything.

Who said 'proof'. You're strawmanning. The point was there has been a fundamental change in the structure of the club. That is undeniable. Obviously, if you want to dismiss it as 'one bloke from Norwegian football' then that's up to you, but it doesn't alter the facts. 

 

[Mattyblue]

I said proof. In *my opinion* I’m not convinced that he has executive power to fire managers. So yes, a sizeable change in the fact the manager now has less say in elements of the club like transfers etc, and is now a ‘head coach’. That GB will be overseeing the football side from academy to scouting to recruitment etc. Fine with that, gives the club continuity and brings us into line with industry best practice.

But can he sack a manager? I say, no he can’t. You think otherwise, fair enough, time will tell.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Mattyblue

[Sweaty Gussets]

4 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

I said proof. In *my opinion* I’m not convinced that he has executive power to fire managers. So yes, a sizeable change in the fact the manager now has less say in elements of the club like transfers etc, and is now a ‘head coach’. That GB will be overseeing the football side from academy to scouting to recruitment etc. Fine with that, gives the club continuity and brings us into line with industry best practice.

But can he sack a manager? I say, no he can’t. You think otherwise, fair enough, time will tell.

Well at least you now agree that the structure has changed and that Venky's do sack contracted managers😉

I don't think he can personally sack him.  But he should be able to recommend he be sacked as part of his role as head of football operations. He's JDT's boss after all. Compare and contrast 5 years of Mowbray with Waggott making the 'recommendations', to use Waggott's term!

Of course, if you believe in the big conspiracy and that we are run by men in the 'shadows' then it's a futile discussion. 

[Mattyblue]

Not ‘men in the shadows’. Pasha, who is the owners’ man on the ground with oversight over the whole operation. Not a conspiracy, just how it is down there and has been for many years.

I’ve never said I don’t agree it’s a new structure, that’s obvious. I just don’t think the head of said structure has power to sack managers, and neither do you, so not sure what we are even disagreeing about.

Oh and Venky’s have sacked one manager, Coyle, since 2015, and that’s a spell of time in which we’ve been bang average and most Championship clubs have pulled the trigger a half dozen times. So no, I’m not expecting a contracted JDT to find himself quickly out of a job.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Mattyblue

[Exiled in Toronto]

4 hours ago, arbitro said:

I wasn't going to post this because of the million questions that follow criticising credibility of source and other things but I was told by somebody close to the players that many players aren't happy with Tomasson. The exact words were 'he is only two senior players away from losing the dressing room'.

Interesting Tony, and completely believable. They can’t enjoy looking like mugs every week, or indeed having to get up on their hind legs and do tactical presentations. They also must know by now that he won’t change and that many of them are going to be replaced. Not only does he not care, it’s what he wants. 

[windymiller7]

16 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

Interesting Tony, and completely believable. They can’t enjoy looking like mugs every week, or indeed having to get up on their hind legs and do tactical presentations. They also must know by now that he won’t change and that many of them are going to be replaced. Not only does he not care, it’s what he wants. 

Definitely believable, & after yesterday's debacle I wouldn't be surprised if it's now a full house!

We all know how that one plays out.

[chaddyrovers]

16 hours ago, davulsukur said:

Are you happy with this playing out from the back, suicidal football? 

I like playing out from the back in the right situations. Yesterday at times was suicidal football and the second goal for them was criminal from Kaminski and Travis. Kaminski has to decide when is the right and wrong time to play out from the back like Pickford did yesterday. 

13 hours ago, booth said:

He does that, then scores a worldie.

You don't take your top scorer off when you need a goal.

BBD was poor and I was surprised when took off but looking back he wasn't effective the game at all. 

6 hours ago, Ossydave said:

Get rid now. 

It's literally the definition of insanity being served up, doing the same shit time after time but expecting a different outcome. He's too stubborn to deviate from his 'project' too.

I would say this get rid attitude of a head coach who has been in charge 22 games and has us 3rd in the league is totally insanity and utter madness. Also this isn't his project but the club project that Gregg Broughton and Jan Dahl Tomasson have come in to implement. Why not allow JDT the full season and next summer to bring in his own players that fit the style of play he wants to play here and 

5 hours ago, Ossydave said:

Berg was sacked after 57 days Matty

years ago and Rovers are run very different now with a Proper football management structure in place now. 

3 hours ago, oldjamfan1 said:

This doesn’t surprise me in the least Tony. You can tell in their body language. Worrying times.

It was only a couple of months ago that the players were saying that they were enjoying life under JDT and his coaching methods. Saying its was massive different to his coaching methods

[Uddersfelt Blue]

I suspect JDT is already planning to sell Brereton in January. Why would he take him off at 2-1? Dack too will be gone I guess. 

[chaddyrovers]

2 minutes ago, Uddersfelt Blue said:

I suspect JDT is already planning to sell Brereton in January. Why would he take him off at 2-1? Dack too will be gone I guess. 

JDT has said he wants BBD to stay here. Rovers have offered him a new contract and maybe BBD wants to stay depending whether we get promote. Maybe BBD might sign a pre contract with a Spanish club which  clubs are reported by the media to be interested in him. 

I agree I think Dack will be gone in January 

[Ossydave]

Chaddy get over the 3rd in the league bollocks we won't be there in May, when it actually means something. After the next 2 games, playing like we are its almost certain we won't even be in the top 6.

Losing to Burnley in the manner we did was utterly disgraceful, admittedly you can't pin full blame on the manager as the players were awful and must share some of the blame. In fairness Burnley are looking decent now and should go up.

Preston aren't even a good team though so to get battered off them doesn't bode well at all for the remainder of the season. Norwich next up, almost certain defeat then Sunderland who are more than capable of banging a few in.

I can take losing football games, it's inevitable. What I can't take is the manner of the defeats in the last 2 games. If he hasn't got the players to play how he wants to he should alter the fucking tactics! He's most certainly got a squad of players capable of beating Preston at his disposal.

[roversfan99]

44 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I like playing out from the back in the right situations. Yesterday at times was suicidal football and the second goal for them was criminal from Kaminski and Travis. Kaminski has to decide when is the right and wrong time to play out from the back like Pickford did yesterday. 

BBD was poor and I was surprised when took off but looking back he wasn't effective the game at all. 

I would say this get rid attitude of a head coach who has been in charge 22 games and has us 3rd in the league is totally insanity and utter madness. Also this isn't his project but the club project that Gregg Broughton and Jan Dahl Tomasson have come in to implement. Why not allow JDT the full season and next summer to bring in his own players that fit the style of play he wants to play here and 

years ago and Rovers are run very different now with a Proper football management structure in place now. 

It was only a couple of months ago that the players were saying that they were enjoying life under JDT and his coaching methods. Saying its was massive different to his coaching methods

We don't have the players. None of our centre backs are particularly technical and Travis cannot play on the half turn.

Very worrying that after these weeks you repeatedly said would be important to work on tactics etc, that we play with such a confused and counter productive style yesterday.

The transfer window is not looking a particularly great one either.

[Nuttall is lost]

JDT or DDT?

 

Which is more harmful?

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

We don't have the players. None of our centre backs are particularly technical and Travis cannot play on the half turn.

I said at certain times can play out from the back. If teams don't press us high we should.  Players like Hyam, Scott Wharton and either Morton or Buckley can play out but it's about players making decisions on the field like Kaminski should no way play that ball to Travis in the second half. Look at Pickford has an example who wouldn't play the ball to Stones or Maguire in certain situations but played it long. That why Gallagher or Hirst or Vale should play as number 9 can try to win the header or at challenge for it. Dack or Szmodics can't. 

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Very worrying that after these weeks you repeatedly said would be important to work on tactics etc, that we play with such a confused and counter productive style yesterday.

Lets see in the coming weeks and not start over reacting to this. 

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

The transfer window is not looking a particularly great one either.

another over the top reaction to 2 very poor results to local teams. 

[chaddyrovers]

4 hours ago, Ossydave said:

Chaddy get over the 3rd in the league bollocks we won't be there in May, when it actually means something. After the next 2 games, playing like we are its almost certain we won't even be in the top 6.

That's where we currently 3rd in the league. Yet, people want him sack on here. Totally and utterly embarrassing. Time to judge is end of the season. If some people on here was in charge of a football club we would be sacking every few games and having OTT reaction to  few results and displays. We need to give JDT the season and the summer to judge from next season. I give you 2 examples. Farke at Norwich. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by chaddyrovers

[Upside Down]

We don't have the players to 'play out of the back' so why persist with it? 

The only team I have ever seen do that successfully was 2009 era Barcelona. Last time I checked we aren't that. 

Football is not a complicated game. If you'd have played a pass along the back 10 - 15 years ago you'd have been given the biggest bollocking of your life. This is the real world not fucking fifa 23.

[Mattyblue]

No club, never mind this one (Well, maybe Watford) are sacking managers when 3rd in the league half way through the season.

With this budget and these players, should we be second, first?

‘But, but, false position’ will be the response. We probably will fall away, I imagine we’ll finish mid table. But actual demands to sack the bloke as we stand? On what grounds? Being well beaten by sides 1st and 5th? Be angry after those  two debacles, certainly, but bloody hell get a bit of perspective.

[Darrenbot]

I have come to the view that JDT is a dud manager but saying that i would give him the Jan window and the rest of the season to change my mind.

Firstly next time we go 1-0 make me start to believe we can still get back in the game,secondly show that you can see we haven;t got the players to be playing it out from the back.try something different once in a while,

Show you can set teams up to play different ways,if you only play one way you aren't going to get far in the management game.