[Archived] Rovers Might Have Been Sold?

[1864roverite]

i think you might find (if you read the articles on their US business) that 4 of their companies have now gone bust owing millions, their building equity (shopping malls) has a serious negative deficit which seems to show me that debt against their holding interests is far bigger than what you suggest it may be.

In any case, it matters not as my interest is simply BRFC.

[Brfcrule1]

Broken Pic. Frame where do you get your info from?.do you know some insider who knows about the negotiations or is it just guesswork? Kamy/Nicko can you confirm this? or are they still talking? thanks.

p.s. sorry for starting the shakespeare speech this morning.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

On and on and on we go, where it ends NO BUGGER knows!

[philipl]

There is nothing wrong with high levels of debt, providing the equity value is greater. Alliance Boots is a classic example of this, and their debt is more than three times the level of Man U's.

In the case of Manchester United, there are two debt levels, a recently refinanced £500m bond, and a subordinated PIK note (no cash repayment) currently worth about £220m. The total value of the business is anywhere between £1.4bn and £1.6bn, depending on which profit figure is used, implying a signficant equity holding.

In terms of the Glazers, and I can only go on what I have read since I don't have access to any of their other financial information, but I believe their total debt levels are around £1.1bn and total assets are about £2.1bn.

For a comparative assessment the debt levels of Blackburn (£20m) compared to their apparent valuation (£45m according to current speculation) are roughly the same as Man U, so your comments are a bit wide of the mark.

Sorry to highlight your comment like that.

But are Alliance Boots playing a 3 in 20 chance of seeing their revenue drop by 60% through relegation each season?

Man U are simply screwed eventually unless they get a Fairy Godmother- which is quite possible.

There is nothing firm to base your assertion that the Glazers' equity has any value or indeed whether in fact the Glazers have any debt free equity in anything...

[Blackburn Ravers]

Broken Pic. Frame where do you get your info from?.do you know some insider who knows about the negotiations or is it just guesswork? Kamy/Nicko can you confirm this? or are they still talking? thanks.

p.s. sorry for starting the shakespeare speech this morning.

its just guess work,

[philipl]

Saurin Shah does not have the money.

He is backed by some people that have the money but as time goes on, they have started to find out what a long term investment this is. This has inevitably resulted in cold feet. Several of the original backers will now have pulled out and Mr Shah will be desperately trying to persuade others to get involved.

Meanwhile, the club being fully aware of this, will want to keep it all under wraps until the season starts. After all, John Williams & Sam have confirmed that we were holding off signings until the take over was sorted (End of July at the latest!) Because of this decision, we are now entering the new season unbelievably unprepared. The takeover, obviously provides a brilliant excuse for what is a potentially suicidal cock up. A week after transfer deadline, I would not at all be surprised to hear that Mr Shah's takeover has fallen through.

What happens if Kalinic breaks his leg against Everton?

It is a leg break against Arsenal which is the really scary prospect. No time before the window closes if that happens.

[BPF]

Broken Pic. Frame where do you get your info from?.do you know some insider who knows about the negotiations or is it just guesswork? Kamy/Nicko can you confirm this? or are they still talking? thanks.

p.s. sorry for starting the shakespeare speech this morning.

I love you Brfcrule1.

I was sat in the boardroom this morning, my last comment is the summary of the minutes.

[thenodrog]

FYI the Glazers have doubled the value of their equity holding since they took over, so all this business about not making money is rubbish.

Glazers?

They've also rocketed the cost of Season Tickets and p1ssed of lots of ST holders. They've also sunk the club in huge debt and disadvantaged them against their rivals for many many years to come. Not to mention gambling with their very existence should trading conditions dip. What happens to MU if media and CL money falls away from current levels?

All in all whilst the Glazers loot and pillage the club whilst they trouser their cash Man Utd as a club and it's supporters are being left bare arsed and defenceless. Happy days.

[den]

Glazers?

Man Utd are being left bare arsed and defenceless. Happy days.

If that happens all the other clubs should break away and form their own Super Premier League.

Leave 'em to play the Dingles four times a season.

[Baz]

Does that not merely indicate that the last loan of 3m was received sometime in 2008 or 2009 before support was withdrawn?

Interest Free Loans indicate to me a loan and cost-saving benefits rather than investment by the Trust. Or am I missing something?

How much non-returnable funding has been put into the club by the Trust over the past few seasons?

Also, my understanding was that Jacks wishes were that Rovers were one of a number of beneficiaries of the Trust - I'm presuming others included the Walker family.

[Balwer]

Man U are simply screwed eventually unless they get a Fairy Godmother- which is quite possible.

There is nothing firm to base your assertion that the Glazers' equity has any value or indeed whether in fact the Glazers have any debt free equity in anything...

I have viewed two independent valuations of the company, one by a big 4 accounting firm, that would beg to differ. Who do you think invests in the debt of these firms? Companies like mine. You are welcome to disagree, but the general belief of the leveraged finance industry is that the business is doing rather well and is not 'screwed'.

Would I personally want Blackburn to operate under the same model? Probably not. But that's not what's being disputed here.

[PAFELL]

Interest Free Loans indicate to me a loan and cost-saving benefits rather than investment by the Trust. Or am I missing something?

How much non-returnable funding has been put into the club by the Trust over the past few seasons?

Also, my understanding was that Jacks wishes were that Rovers were one of a number of beneficiaries of the Trust - I'm presuming others included the Walker family.

As I have mentioned I would just be happy for the trust to continue doing what they are doing now. But commit the 3 mill a season that they used to do. I suggest that money could mean an extra place or two in the league. It would help with any other money that can be found for transfers. To have 5.5 million is better than 2.5 in anybodies books.

It shows at least a little 'public commitment to the club' It would give a base on which to start the transfer kitty. Rovers would never be on a level playing field with the rest of the prem. But they could at least be able to compete with clubs around them - making it easier to avoid relegation, with that extra 3million a year from the trustees.

[Balwer]

As I have mentioned I would just be happy for the trust to continue doing what they are doing now. But commit the 3 mill a season that they used to do. I suggest that money could mean an extra place or two in the league. It would help with any other money that can be found for transfers. To have 5.5 million is better than 2.5 in anybodies books.

It shows at least a little 'public commitment to the club' It would give a base on which to start the transfer kitty. Rovers would never be on a level playing field with the rest of the prem. But they could at least be able to compete with clubs around them - making it easier to avoid relegation, with that extra 3million a year from the trustees.

I agree, however I imagine the Trustees do not share our view, and I speculate it's because they are now pushing harder in their desire to sell the club, believing their work in helping the club transition to life without Jack is now complete. The stumbling block of course is finding the right buyer to take the club into its next phase.

[Ben-2000]

Note 16 to the latest set of accounts:

Amounts owing to parent undertaking

2009-£5,000,000

2008-£2,000,000

The amounts owing to the parent undertaking are interest free.

As for the point about the costs the Trust does not pass onto the Rovers, go look at the accounts of virtually every other Premier League club and see what they get clobbered with in terms of Directors' fees, Directors' expenses, Board expenses, legal and banking advisors fees and expenses etc etc. None of those items are in the Rovers' accounts apart from some very reasonable payment to the three Exec directors who are running a £50m+ turn over business which is very much in the public eye.

Where can I find the latest accounts?

Thanks.

[Fife Rover]

If I can be even more pedantic it doesn't mean that.

It means WHY are you Romeo i.e. from a different family to me (Montagues/ Capulets) therefore we can never be together etc

.Well now that's very interesting Rev. I am not saying you are wrong, but my version is definitely how we were taught it in school back in the late '40s. Has there been a more recent shift in scholarly thinking?

[Exiled in Toronto]

.Well now that's very interesting Rev. I am not saying you are wrong, but my version is definitely how we were taught it in school back in the late '40s. Has there been a more recent shift in scholarly thinking?

Well I did R+J as my O level Shakespeare in 1974 and the meaning then was as Rev says. 'Wherefore' does not mean 'where', it means for what reason or purpose.

Sorry for cluttering up the board and possibly delaying news of our sale....

[Balwer]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wherefore

[philipl]

Cameron's delegation to India includes the heads of the Premier League. If Saurin Shah is a serious player, he must surely be meeting these people.

[Mike Graham]

Cameron's delegation to India includes the heads of the Premier League. If Saurin Shah is a serious player, he must surely be meeting these people.

I watched the Cameron delegation on C4 News last night, it was an embarrasment us going cap in hand to the Indians, it just sumed up Britain: "please come and buy our businesses, and can you please keep one or two of the jobs in the UK pretty please".

All the local Indians were saying was we prefer to buy Indian made goods!

What this means to Rovers I don't know.....apart from they have some sharp cookies out there and they know how to make money; they will not make money out of Rovers unless they take money out or use us for raising finance.

GOD HELP US

[OscarRaven]

In response to the Trust have put us up for sale comments.

What is the perfect response to fans saying that the trust is holding the club back?

Also if Jack was alive today and the comment was made that he was holding the club back does anyone think he wouldn't do exactly what his trustee's are doing?

I suggest the only reason the club is up for sale is because of the ungrateful supporters suggesting that the Trust is having a negative impact on the club. Those who cant see the benefits of Trust ownership (£5 million quid interest free!!!) and running the football club on a sustainable basis are idiots. Unfortunately in my opinion I suspect its these very same idiots shouting their mouth off about the passive trust ownership that have brought us to this point.

If the vast majority of supporters were to protest and petition the trust to retain ownership of the club (on the basis of the club being self sufficient), I'm sure it would happen.

But it won't happen because too many people want to roll the dice....

[den]

I suggest the only reason the club is up for sale is because of the ungrateful supporters suggesting that the Trust is having a negative impact on the club. Those who cant see the benefits of Trust ownership (£5 million quid interest free!!!) and running the football club on a sustainable basis are idiots. Unfortunately in my opinion I suspect its these very same idiots shouting their mouth off about the passive trust ownership that have brought us to this point.

If the vast majority of supporters were to protest and petition the trust to retain ownership of the club (on the basis of the club being self sufficient), I'm sure it would happen.

But it won't happen because too many people want to roll the dice....

Tripe Oscar.

[Gav]

I suggest the only reason the club is up for sale is because of the ungrateful supporters suggesting that the Trust is having a negative impact on the club. Those who cant see the benefits of Trust ownership (£5 million quid interest free!!!) and running the football club on a sustainable basis are idiots.

If the club remains in the hands of the trust we'll be championship side in 2 seasons I'd wager, not an option really.

[Fife Rover]

Tripe Oscar.

Garbage Den.

[OscarRaven]

Tripe Oscar.

Feel free to elaborate.

Gav,

Whats so different about the next two seasons than the last 8 or 9?

If the money gap continues to widen, it will simply make the teams coming up even more likely to go down, 9 teams have shorter odds than us this season to go down.... never seen a poor bookie!

As long as we can pay top class European wages we will be fine. I'm amazazed transfers still happen to be honest.

Predicting doom because the club is being run sustainable basis is somewhat flawed. I don't agree with your Premier League or bust argument.

[den]

Feel free to elaborate.

The club's up for sale because the owners have no interest in putting any more cash in, - plus they aren't interested in running a football club. Nothing more to it.