[Archived] Transfers Part 2

[Hasta]

Normal contracts state that.

Keano's had no such thing. 

If we had a board capable of writing standard contracts then there may be a relegation paycut in there. However which incompetent buffoon at Ewood will have wrote such contracts? Degsy? Cheston? Suhail?

[RV Blue]

Just now, Dunnfc said:

Efe Ambrose the man with out a work permit - Player of the month for Hibs and Scottish Championship

https://twitter.com/Ladbrokes/status/852521102647726080/photo/1

How can you have a permit to work in Scotland but not England? Doesn't make any sense.

[tomphil]

Conveniently omit the pay cut clause and hey presto you then have players who'll need moving out or paying off asap.  Just saying...........

[Hasta]

Just now, tomphil said:

Conveniently omit the pay cut clause and hey presto you then have players who'll need moving out or paying off asap.  Just saying...........

That only works if you sign players that are poor enough to be relegated in the first place.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, Hasta said:

That only works if you sign players that are poor enough to be relegated in the first place.

 

Well we seem to have got that bit right.

[Dunnfc]

Just now, RV Blue said:

How can you have a permit to work in Scotland but not England? Doesn't make any sense.

Probably has a current work permit to play in Scotland but might not have recently got the required number of Nigeria caps to qualify for a new permit in England? Remember the Korean lad from Wigan and Cardiff think bowyer had a similar issue with him.

[RoverCanada]

57 minutes ago, Hasta said:

Normal contracts state that.

Keano's had no such thing. 

If we had a board capable of writing standard contracts then there may be a relegation paycut in there. However which incompetent buffoon at Ewood will have wrote such contracts? Degsy? Cheston? Suhail?

Out of curiosity (and I don't mean to dredge up old debates/painful memories) just double checking the proposed salary structure in the alleged Kean contract:

2011/12

PL £1M + £200k bonus if we finished above 12th

2012/13

If in the PL: £1.2M + £200k bonus if we finished above 12th;

If in the Championship, £600k + £500k bonus if we get promoted

2013/14

If in the PL: and we were in the PL in 12/13, £1.5M; after getting promoted back in 2012/13, £1M - +£200k bonus if we finished above 12th.

If in the Championship: after getting relegated in 12/13, £600k; after getting relegated in 11/12, £500k - +£500k if we get promoted.

If in L1 after getting relegated again in 12/13, £300k (no bonus for getting promoted back to the Championship). 

Plus a £1.611M bonus, which appears to be irrespective of what division we were in.

2014/15

If in the PL: £1.75M if have remained in the PL; £1M after getting promoted back to the PL in 13/14; £1.2M after getting relegated in 11/12 and promoted in 12/13 or after getting relegated in 12/13 and promoted in 13/14 - +£200k bonus if we finished above 12th.

If in the Championship: for the first time, £600k; for the 2nd or 3rd season, £500k - + £500k bonus if promoted.

If in L1: for the first time, £300k; for the second season in a row, £250k (no bonus for getting promoted back to the Championship). 

Plus a £1.611M bonus, which appears to be irrespective of what division we were in.

2015/16

If in the PL: £2M if have remained in the PL; £1M after getting relegated in 11/12 and promoted in 14/15; £1.2M after getting relegated in 12/13 and promoted in 13/14; £1.5M if: having been relegated in 11/12, promoted in 12/13, and either stayed in the PL in 13/14 and 14/15 or been relegated in 13/14 and promoted in 14/15; or been relegated in 12/13, promoted in 13/14 and then stayed in the PL; or relegated in 13/14 and promoted in 14/15 - +£200k if we finished above 12th

If in the Championship: for the first time, £600k; for the 3rd or 4th season, £500k - + £500k bonus if promoted.

If in L1: for the first time, £300k; for the 2nd or 3rd season, £250k (no bonus for getting promoted back to the Championship).

Plus a £1.611M bonus, which appears to be irrespective of what division we were in.

(I tried to make it easy enough to follow but there are a lot of clauses as the seasons go on and with respect to every possible scenario!)

There are also £200k bonuses if we ever qualified for the Champions League or Europa and FA Cup/League Cup-related bonuses.

Looking at the above, the "relegation by design" theory really doesn't make sense on a pure monetary basis as Kean was always set to be paid more if we remained in the PL. Never struck me as bizarre that a salary was set out for L1 as it simply lowered what we owed him if such a relegation ever occurred and we wanted to fire him. (Perhaps you could argue he should be fired without compensation if we got two straight relegations but no one would agree to such a contract!).

For example, if in 15/16 Kean had kept us in the PL all that time, he'd be earning £3.6M (including that extra bonus...), plus the £200k bonus if we finished above 12th and those bonuses if we qualified for Europe. If Kean had dropped us to L1 (and we had stayed there), he'd be earning £1.86M (including that extra bonus...). Also, his total salary earned over that period would have been £12.3M if he had kept us in the PL (excluding potential performance/Cup bonuses) rather than £7.2M over that period if we had been relegated twice.

So that does bring us to the truly bizarre £1.6M bonuses in 2013/14, 2014/15, and 2015/16 that don't appear to account for what division we're in. On the face of it, an extra bonus for having been our manager for 3-5 years is sensible in terms of a reward for 'loyalty' and presumably a manager who has stuck around that long has performed well for us. But that no condition is given on how we have performed either makes that bonus look like: 1) an incredibly dumb oversight that I would have hope had been corrected in a final draft, or 2) some shady extra payments Kean was promised for whatever reason.

Given all that was going on at the club, I'd lean toward 2), but I just thought I'd make the point that he was always better incentivised to perform well, at least solely going by what's actually in that leaked contract (and setting aside any allegations of receiving under the table cuts from player sales, Anderson and his cronies, etc.)

[AllRoverAsia]

Just now, RoverCanada said:

Out of curiosity (and I don't mean to dredge up old debates/painful memories) just double checking the proposed salary structure in the alleged Kean contract:

2011/12

PL £1M + £200k bonus if we finished above 12th

2012/13

If in the PL: £1.2M + £200k bonus if we finished above 12th;

If in the Championship, £600k + £500k bonus if we get promoted

2013/14

If in the PL: and we were in the PL in 12/13, £1.5M; after getting promoted back in 2012/13, £1M - +£200k bonus if we finished above 12th.

If in the Championship: after getting relegated in 12/13, £600k; after getting relegated in 11/12, £500k - +£500k if we get promoted.

If in L1 after getting relegated again in 12/13, £300k (no bonus for getting promoted back to the Championship). 

Plus a £1.611M bonus, which appears to be irrespective of what division we were in.

2014/15

If in the PL: £1.75M if have remained in the PL; £1M after getting promoted back to the PL in 13/14; £1.2M after getting relegated in 11/12 and promoted in 12/13 or after getting relegated in 12/13 and promoted in 13/14 - +£200k bonus if we finished above 12th.

If in the Championship: for the first time, £600k; for the 2nd or 3rd season, £500k - + £500k bonus if promoted.

If in L1: for the first time, £300k; for the second season in a row, £250k (no bonus for getting promoted back to the Championship). 

Plus a £1.611M bonus, which appears to be irrespective of what division we were in.

2015/16

If in the PL: £2M if have remained in the PL; £1M after getting relegated in 11/12 and promoted in 14/15; £1.2M after getting relegated in 12/13 and promoted in 13/14; £1.5M if: having been relegated in 11/12, promoted in 12/13, and either stayed in the PL in 13/14 and 14/15 or been relegated in 13/14 and promoted in 14/15; or been relegated in 12/13, promoted in 13/14 and then stayed in the PL; or relegated in 13/14 and promoted in 14/15 - +£200k if we finished above 12th

If in the Championship: for the first time, £600k; for the 3rd or 4th season, £500k - + £500k bonus if promoted.

If in L1: for the first time, £300k; for the 2nd or 3rd season, £250k (no bonus for getting promoted back to the Championship).

Plus a £1.611M bonus, which appears to be irrespective of what division we were in.

(I tried to make it easy enough to follow but there are a lot of clauses as the seasons go on and with respect to every possible scenario!)

There are also £200k bonuses if we ever qualified for the Champions League or Europa and FA Cup/League Cup-related bonuses.

Looking at the above, the "relegation by design" theory really doesn't make sense on a pure monetary basis as Kean was always set to be paid more if we remained in the PL. Never struck me as bizarre that a salary was set out for L1 as it simply lowered what we owed him if such a relegation ever occurred and we wanted to fire him. (Perhaps you could argue he should be fired without compensation if we got two straight relegations but no one would agree to such a contract!).

For example, if in 15/16 Kean had kept us in the PL all that time, he'd be earning £3.6M (including that extra bonus...), plus the £200k bonus if we finished above 12th and those bonuses if we qualified for Europe. If Kean had dropped us to L1 (and we had stayed there), he'd be earning £1.86M (including that extra bonus...). Also, his total salary earned over that period would have been £12.3M if he had kept us in the PL (excluding potential performance/Cup bonuses) rather than £7.2M over that period if we had been relegated twice.

So that does bring us to the truly bizarre £1.6M bonuses in 2013/14, 2014/15, and 2015/16 that don't appear to account for what division we're in. On the face of it, an extra bonus for having been our manager for 3-5 years is sensible in terms of a reward for 'loyalty' and presumably a manager who has stuck around that long has performed well for us. But that no condition is given on how we have performed either makes that bonus look like: 1) an incredibly dumb oversight that I would have hope had been corrected in a final draft, or 2) some shady extra payments Kean was promised for whatever reason.

Given all that was going on at the club, I'd lean toward 2), but I just thought I'd make the point that he was always better incentivised to perform well, at least solely going by what's actually in that leaked contract (and setting aside any allegations of receiving under the table cuts from player sales, Anderson and his cronies, etc.)

Brilliant work. Many thanks.

I'm going to preserve a copy of this.

[Hasta]

Sorry yes his salary does drop but is still defies belief. 

It's a contract that healthily rewards a manager regardless of division or the level of failure.

Remember the policy by the people controlling transfers at the time (Those at Brockhall 24/7 and authorising transfers that JW was unaware of) . It was to remove the experienced pro's and bring in their own players.

This was never going to benefit BRFC but only gong to benefit the incoming players and their agents. However they needed a manager to play along. The fact the bonuses are so small for finishing in the top12 of the premier league shows how little focus is on that aspect of the bonus structure.

The fact is Kean was guaranteed at least £1.9 million in 2013/14 regardless of division. Therefore he would have got paid more 2013/14 if they finished bottom of league one than  in 2011/12 when his contract started.

Keane could sell experience, buy Kentaro tripe and know that £1.9 mill was coming in 2014 no matter what.

Old ground I know but I'd wager no Prem manager is on a contract like that now and no player at Ewood currently gets a £1.6mill payment regardless of division if they stick around for 3 years.

[Bigdoggsteel]

42 minutes ago, RoverCanada said:

Out of curiosity (and I don't mean to dredge up old debates/painful memories) just double checking the proposed salary structure in the alleged Kean contract:

2011/12

PL £1M + £200k bonus if we finished above 12th

2012/13

If in the PL: £1.2M + £200k bonus if we finished above 12th;

If in the Championship, £600k + £500k bonus if we get promoted

2013/14

If in the PL: and we were in the PL in 12/13, £1.5M; after getting promoted back in 2012/13, £1M - +£200k bonus if we finished above 12th.

If in the Championship: after getting relegated in 12/13, £600k; after getting relegated in 11/12, £500k - +£500k if we get promoted.

If in L1 after getting relegated again in 12/13, £300k (no bonus for getting promoted back to the Championship). 

Plus a £1.611M bonus, which appears to be irrespective of what division we were in.

2014/15

If in the PL: £1.75M if have remained in the PL; £1M after getting promoted back to the PL in 13/14; £1.2M after getting relegated in 11/12 and promoted in 12/13 or after getting relegated in 12/13 and promoted in 13/14 - +£200k bonus if we finished above 12th.

If in the Championship: for the first time, £600k; for the 2nd or 3rd season, £500k - + £500k bonus if promoted.

If in L1: for the first time, £300k; for the second season in a row, £250k (no bonus for getting promoted back to the Championship). 

Plus a £1.611M bonus, which appears to be irrespective of what division we were in.

2015/16

If in the PL: £2M if have remained in the PL; £1M after getting relegated in 11/12 and promoted in 14/15; £1.2M after getting relegated in 12/13 and promoted in 13/14; £1.5M if: having been relegated in 11/12, promoted in 12/13, and either stayed in the PL in 13/14 and 14/15 or been relegated in 13/14 and promoted in 14/15; or been relegated in 12/13, promoted in 13/14 and then stayed in the PL; or relegated in 13/14 and promoted in 14/15 - +£200k if we finished above 12th

If in the Championship: for the first time, £600k; for the 3rd or 4th season, £500k - + £500k bonus if promoted.

If in L1: for the first time, £300k; for the 2nd or 3rd season, £250k (no bonus for getting promoted back to the Championship).

Plus a £1.611M bonus, which appears to be irrespective of what division we were in.

(I tried to make it easy enough to follow but there are a lot of clauses as the seasons go on and with respect to every possible scenario!)

There are also £200k bonuses if we ever qualified for the Champions League or Europa and FA Cup/League Cup-related bonuses.

Looking at the above, the "relegation by design" theory really doesn't make sense on a pure monetary basis as Kean was always set to be paid more if we remained in the PL. Never struck me as bizarre that a salary was set out for L1 as it simply lowered what we owed him if such a relegation ever occurred and we wanted to fire him. (Perhaps you could argue he should be fired without compensation if we got two straight relegations but no one would agree to such a contract!).

For example, if in 15/16 Kean had kept us in the PL all that time, he'd be earning £3.6M (including that extra bonus...), plus the £200k bonus if we finished above 12th and those bonuses if we qualified for Europe. If Kean had dropped us to L1 (and we had stayed there), he'd be earning £1.86M (including that extra bonus...). Also, his total salary earned over that period would have been £12.3M if he had kept us in the PL (excluding potential performance/Cup bonuses) rather than £7.2M over that period if we had been relegated twice.

So that does bring us to the truly bizarre £1.6M bonuses in 2013/14, 2014/15, and 2015/16 that don't appear to account for what division we're in. On the face of it, an extra bonus for having been our manager for 3-5 years is sensible in terms of a reward for 'loyalty' and presumably a manager who has stuck around that long has performed well for us. But that no condition is given on how we have performed either makes that bonus look like: 1) an incredibly dumb oversight that I would have hope had been corrected in a final draft, or 2) some shady extra payments Kean was promised for whatever reason.

Given all that was going on at the club, I'd lean toward 2), but I just thought I'd make the point that he was always better incentivised to perform well, at least solely going by what's actually in that leaked contract (and setting aside any allegations of receiving under the table cuts from player sales, Anderson and his cronies, etc.)

Great research, thanks for that. Hopefully it finally puts paid to people on here saying Kean "got a bonus for relegation". 

[Hasta]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Great research, thanks for that. Hopefully it finally puts paid to people on here saying Kean "got a bonus for relegation". 

Indeed. But it proves the contract rewarded failure.

It proves Kean got a bonus regardless of division.

Also proves he got more money annually three years into his contract, regardless  of division, than the £1.2 million pound a year he got in either of the previous years.

Yep.. Nothing to see here.

[Bigdoggsteel]

9 minutes ago, Hasta said:

Indeed. But it proves the contract rewarded failure.

It proves Kean got a bonus regardless of division.

Also proves he got more money annually three years into his contract, regardless  of division, than the £1.2 million pound a year he got in either of the previous years.

Yep.. Nothing to see here.

Did you actually read it? I don't think you understand it or are choosing to only see something that validates your view.  He did not get rewarded for relegation, that is the whole point of what the post above explains. He got less money after relegation. Do you get that?

Yes, he got a smaller bonus for being in lower division. Again, not a reward. Actually the opposite. 

Yes, there was a loyalty bonus there ,if had have stayed for 3 years. Standard stuff in contracts.

He did very well to get the contract, but its standard stuff. Nothing to see here. There is no plan for intentional relegation. ANY SEASON. 

 

[Hasta]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Did you actually read it? I don't think you understand it or are choosing to only see something that validates your view.  He did not get rewarded for relegation, that is the whole point of what the post above explains. He got less money after relegation. Do you get that?

Yes, he got a smaller bonus for being in lower division. Again, not a reward. Actually the opposite. 

Yes, there was a loyalty bonus there ,if had have stayed for 3 years. Standard stuff in contracts.

He did very well to get the contract, but its standard stuff. Nothing to see here. There is no plan for intentional relegation. ANY SEASON. 

 

Yes I read it. He didn't get rewarded for relegation. That's why I said 'indeed'

However which of my points in my reply you quoted is incorrect?

This got brought up because someone says the players have their wages cut if they get relegated by 50%.  Now imagine if Danny Graham and Anthony Stokes was on a contract where in 2 years time they got a £1.6 million bonuses regardless of division.

In fact answer these simple questions.

Contractually In 2012, how much money did he receive for that year if he came 5th in the Prem?

In 2014, how much money did he receive that year if he completely failed and was bottom of league 1?

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Hasta said:

Yes I read it. He didn't get rewarded for relegation. That's why I said 'indeed'

However which of my points in my reply you quoted is incorrect?

This got brought up because someone says the players have their wages cut if they get relegated by 50%.  Now imagine if Danny Graham and Anthony Stokes was on a contract where in 2 years time they got a £1.6 million bonuses regardless of division.

 

 

Maybe they are on a loyalty bonus? 

It was an undeserved contact, but nothing illegal. I have read many on here saying that kean got a bonus for relegation. You can spin it and say that a loyalty bonus is a bonus for relegation, but the reality is that it isn't. 

[Hasta]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Maybe they are on a loyalty bonus? 

It was an undeserved contact, but nothing illegal. I have read many on here saying that kean got a bonus for relegation. You can spin it and say that a loyalty bonus is a bonus for relegation, but the reality is that it isn't. 

 

I never said that did I?

However it was a contract that let him ship out the experienced players, bring in his masters players and not have to worry about league position because he was getting a pay rise in two years regardless.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Hasta said:

 

I never said that did I?

However it was a contract that let him ship out the experienced players, bring in his masters players and not have to worry about league position because he was getting a pay rise in two years regardless.

Being in a higher league position meant considerably more money for himself, so I would say he did have to worry about it from that viewpoint. 

[Hasta]

But he did receive more money in 2014 if he was bottom of league 1 than he did if he finished top 10 in the Prem in 2012 didn't he ?

Therefore he got a pay rise regardless, unlike most football contracts that drop salaries for relegation.

[chaddyrovers]

What does Kean contract have to do with the transfer thread?

[Hasta]

1 minute ago, chaddyrovers said:

What does Kean contract have to do with the transfer thread?

 

We were talking about whether the current players have a 50% salary reduction relegation clause in their contract. I questioned who  at the club would be sensible enough to put such a clause in their contract, seeing as no-one at Ewood runs the show and whoever used to ran it made sure Kean got more money than he started on regardless of division. 

The wage bill affects transfer policy.

Happy?

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, Hasta said:

But he did receive more money in 2014 if he was bottom of league 1 than he did if he finished top 10 in the Prem in 2012 didn't he ?

Therefore he got a pay rise regardless, unlike most football contracts that drop salaries for relegation.

But less than if he had have kept us in the Premiership.

A generous contract though, no doubt that. 

[Dunnfc]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

But less than if he had have kept us in the Premiership.

A generous contract though, no doubt that. 

In the top four of PL remuneration brackets at the time wasn't it? In fact big Sam 3.5 million at WHU was 13th best in the entire world, Steve Kean wasn't far of that. Mental 

[tomphil]

10 hours ago, Hasta said:

That only works if you sign players that are poor enough to be relegated in the first place.

 

Now if only an agency could get a guy in place to do that they'd be quids in but nah they'd never get away with surely

[AJW]

14 hours ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Players always take huge pay cuts with relegation it's also a clause in most footballers contracts. 

Normally around 30-50%

In Connor's  case , I was told ,the figure was 75% I am sure you can work the figures out for yourself and he is not the only one , others have , or are expecting to be served with the same reductions 

[tomphil]

Some will be looking at the prospect of clauses particularly the easy ones to target i.e young players and recently signed freebies but some wlll have watertight contracts I bet. Would they have lured the likes of Graham, Stokes, Mulgrew etc by saying there you go lads x thousand per week plus bonuses, oh but it might reduce by 50/75% next season.

Doubt it.

[chaddyrovers]

Blackburn Rovers after John Marquis from Doncaster Rovers

https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/prolific-ipswich-and-norwich-target-reveals-where-he-wants-to-play-next-season/