[Archived] Transfers Part 2

[JHRover]

Goes to show though that even at a relatively well run club that hasn't spent big money that the PNE owner is still having to pour in millions out of his own pocket to keep things going.

The lesson there is that if you aren't able or aren't willing to stump up out of your back pocket then don't buy a football club.

The other lesson is that nobody, whether its Rovers, Preston or anyone, will achieve a sustainable break even or profit model in this league. We've just about 'achieved' it via a mass sale of assets and zero investment which is going to result in relegation.

[tomphil]

Quote

 

The way they are run seems sensible and sustainable as long as uncle Trev is about although not sure he'll ever loan a few mill in to get them over the line to the Prem in a similar way a few directors did in dingleville.

Just goes to show that even a club with virtually no debt probably and a modest wage bill still needs a lot of outside backing on gates of 10k in the Championship just to remain competitive. We'll end up light years away from even that.

[north_ender]

Just now, JHRover said:

Goes to show though that even at a relatively well run club that hasn't spent big money that the PNE owner is still having to pour in millions out of his own pocket to keep things going.

The lesson there is that if you aren't able or aren't willing to stump up out of your back pocket then don't buy a football club.

The other lesson is that nobody, whether its Rovers, Preston or anyone, will achieve a sustainable break even or profit model in this league. We've just about 'achieved' it via a mass sale of assets and zero investment which is going to result in relegation.

It's still not ideal having to rely on one person to keep the club afloat but it's much more under control than the situation we had after Alan Irvine and Derek Shaw handed out big contracts and overspent on ageing players. The time on the pitch under Graham Westley was a disaster but off the pitch it allowed us to wipe the slate clean and start afresh with a much lower wage structure, and once he was sacked Grayson then had a good base to work forwards on.

Just now, tomphil said:

The way they are run seems sensible and sustainable as long as uncle Trev is about although not sure he'll ever loan a few mill in to get them over the line to the Prem in a similar way a few directors did in dingleville.

Just goes to show that even a club with virtually no debt probably and a modest wage bill still needs a lot of outside backing on gates of 10k in the Championship just to remain competitive. We'll end up light years away from even that.

Our gates are definitely a big problem. Some of our fans want a Huddersfield model but Hemmings isn't the type to take that financial risk. Peter Ridsdale said at the fan's forum yesterday we'd have to sell 25k season tickets at Huddersfield prices to make what we do now with our current price structure. It's extremely frustrating though because this is the most exciting side we've had in ages and they're playing in front of just 10k home fans every week. 

[tomphil]

It is odd that the gates seem a lot less than last time you were doing ok at this level but I suppose it's the same in all this little triangle of Lancs clubs. Once bitten twice shy and it takes a hell of a lot to get lapsed regulars back through the door.

[north_ender]

Just now, tomphil said:

It is odd that the gates seem a lot less than last time you were doing ok at this level but I suppose it's the same in all this little triangle of Lancs clubs. Once bitten twice shy and it takes a hell of a lot to get lapsed regulars back through the door.

You're absolutely right and "lapsed" is the key word there.

The problem is that from the departure of Billy Davies to Derby, to the arrival of Grayson, we had to ensure almost a decade of utter crap. The managers in between: Paul Simpson - crap, Alan Irvine - scraped us into top 6 one season but good grief......the football was appalling, Darren Ferguson - crap, Phil Brown - crap, Graham Westley - crap. Grayson coming in was a breath of fresh air but even so, it still took him 2 full seasons to overhaul Westley's crap squad and get us out of the third tier.

7 years, other than 1 top 6 season under Irvine (he parked the bus in the play-off semis too ) of total rubbish including a relegation whilst Blackpool made the Premier League, until the arrival of Grayson, then another 2 seasons of L1. It created a lot of lapsed fans who found other things to do with their Saturday afternoons, and it's then hard to get back into it, especially at minimum £400 for a new buyer with no interest free payment schemes.

[chaddyrovers]

43 minutes ago, north_ender said:

Just wondering how you've come to that conclusion? Having had a quick read around the forum before I joined, it seems you wanted Grayson to move to Rovers (wouldn't happen anyway), so what makes you think this now. No doubting what a good job Heckingbottom has done at Barnsley but curious as to how you know he develops players better than Grayson.

Someone with good contacts within PNE on our forum was saying we want 3 young lads from Rovers. Guessing at Mahoney, Nyambe and Lenihan but I may be wrong.

 

He put in around £4m last season according to the accounts, I think.

Firstly, thanks for question. I think Grayson's style of play wouldnt bring Mahoney on as much as Heckingbottom would IMO. Both guys have done a great job on the resources available to them. 

Yes I did Grayson for qualities he has. Good tactically, organising and positional sounds, eye for a player. Plus has a Plan A, B and C. 

Lenihan has 2 years left on contract here, Nyambe has 1 year and Mahoney has 3 months left. All will cost fees so I dont see how you can afford them all if Your Owner is putting 4 mil a season. 

Also Can you answer this question for me, how much has Grayson spent on players since last season and how much have you recieved in fees?

[JonnyP]

Money has ruined football now you get promoted to the PL for a few years earn a fortune in TV rights but you have to spend 10mil minimum on very average players with extortionate wages just to have half a chance of staying up, club starts pulling in decent ground figures n start to build infrastructure to sustain a PL status and then if they get relegated ok they get a few years of parachute payments but if they don't go straight back up and they are still paying out ridiculous wages, ticket sales go down merchandise sales drop and they are left having to cut serious costs in order to try and stop the never ending flow of cash going out the door every month.

weve been in the championship what 4 seasons now and what we thought we had made serious cuts to the squad we are prob still mid table for wages and what makes it worse we are going down to L1 the club is f**ked if you ask me 120mil debt, clubs who get stuck in the championship are doomed to lose a fortune, if your not in the PL debt is something clubs just have to deal with. 

[Lancaster Rover]

Manhoney won't raise a lot at tribunal, a 20 yr old who has featured in a handful of second half cameos in a team at the bottom of the league.

Nyambe would also be available relatively cheaply.

Lenihan has a significant amount of time left on his contract and has been a first team starter for 18 months or so, he would command a fee, whether anyone pays that fee is a different story.

[north_ender]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Firstly, thanks for question. I think Grayson's style of play wouldnt bring Mahoney on as much as Heckingbottom would IMO. Both guys have done a great job on the resources available to them. 

Yes I did Grayson for qualities he has. Good tactically, organising and positional sounds, eye for a player. Plus has a Plan A, B and C. 

Lenihan has 2 years left on contract here, Nyambe has 1 year and Mahoney has 3 months left. All will cost fees so I dont see how you can afford them all if Your Owner is putting 4 mil a season. 

Also Can you answer this question for me, how much has Grayson spent on players since last season and how much have you recieved in fees?

Sure I will answer. Overall transfer fee money spent from last summer and January is about £1.1m (on several cheap purchases).

Garner was sold for £1.5m in August and Bailey Wright sold in January for 600k (ran his contract down). So £2.1m made in sales.

Therefore net spend is around -£1m.

We rejected £2m from Ipswich for Hugill and £2.5m for Robinson from Fulham in January too, so beyond the low figures spent, that's the ambition that goes unnoticed really. Not flogging our best assets.

The Garner situation was that he simply wasn't doing it at this level (doubt you are that surprised about that knowing Garner) and Wright unfortunately ran his deal down so they were slightly different situations. Every other key asset is signed up now for another 2 or 3 seasons.

As for your young lads rumoured to be interesting us, don't know how much they would cost but (no offence intended) as a club heading towards the third tier and financial oblivion would you be in a position to demand that much money for them?

[JonnyP]

Just now, north_ender said:

You're absolutely right and "lapsed" is the key word there.

The problem is that from the departure of Billy Davies to Derby, to the arrival of Grayson, we had to ensure almost a decade of utter crap. The managers in between: Paul Simpson - crap, Alan Irvine - scraped us into top 6 one season but good grief......the football was appalling, Darren Ferguson - crap, Phil Brown - crap, Graham Westley - crap. Grayson coming in was a breath of fresh air but even so, it still took him 2 full seasons to overhaul Westley's crap squad and get us out of the third tier.

7 years, other than 1 top 6 season under Irvine (he parked the bus in the play-off semis too ) of total rubbish including a relegation whilst Blackpool made the Premier League, until the arrival of Grayson, then another 2 seasons of L1. It created a lot of lapsed fans who found other things to do with their Saturday afternoons, and it's then hard to get back into it, especially at minimum £400 for a new buyer with no interest free payment schemes.

Out of interest how do you rate the Irish lads who've come in from Dundalk. I'm Irish and there was a lot of interest last season with how well they did in the Europa League and getting called up to the Irish squad. Horgan looks like a real decent player, what are the thoughts from you and PNE fans?

[lraC]

Just now, JonnyP said:

Money has ruined football now you get promoted to the PL for a few years earn a fortune in TV rights but you have to spend 10mil minimum on very average players with extortionate wages just to have half a chance of staying up, club starts pulling in decent ground figures n start to build infrastructure to sustain a PL status and then if they get relegated ok they get a few years of parachute payments but if they don't go straight back up and they are still paying out ridiculous wages, ticket sales go down merchandise sales drop and they are left having to cut serious costs in order to try and stop the never ending flow of cash going out the door every month.

weve been in the championship what 4 seasons now and what we thought we had made serious cuts to the squad we are prob still mid table for wages and what makes it worse we are going down to L1 the club is f**ked if you ask me 120mil debt, clubs who get stuck in the championship are doomed to loose a fortune, if your not in the PL debt is something clubs just have to deal with. 

That's just about spot on and when you see the Arsenal players behaving like they are at the minute, it just about turns the stomach. I won't bring up too much about our own mercenaries, but if I ever see the like of Bradley Orr, Best, Murphy and Etuhu again at Ewood, I am likely to fall out with football for good.

[north_ender]

Just now, JonnyP said:

Out of interest how do you rate the Irish lads who've come in from Dundalk. I'm Irish and there was a lot of interest last season with how well they did in the Europa League and getting called up to the Irish squad. Horgan looks like a real decent player, what are the thoughts from you and PNE fans?

Horgan looks quality. Boyle took a bit longer to get into the side but did well when he started a few games recently. Both haven't had a break for a long time due to the Irish season schedule and playing in Europe so they will probably come back even better next summer after a break and a proper pre-season over in England.

The real find was Barkhuizen from Morecambe who within 7 starts has already bagged 6, set up 2 and won the Championship player of the month.

[tomphil]

Well a club with the 9th highest wage bill in the championship going into league 1 must be quite rare but I reckon we'll be even rarer because unless some scam is indeed going on via the books it won't go down much. That's because half of those players, coaches , managers and directors are long gone yet still being paid off unlike say Bolton who retained quite a few high earning players for a season at least. Won't have done their books much good but I think the quality they kept is reflected in the league position and therefore crowds and corporate income etc remained good and not the disaster one year in lge 1 could have been for a club in their position.

Won't happen here we'll probably be paying the players left lge 2 wages yet the overall bill will remain mid championship standard maybe for years after the next round of pay offs is added.

[JHRover]

Just now, north_ender said:

Sure I will answer. Overall transfer fee money spent from last summer and January is about £1.1m (on several cheap purchases).

Garner was sold for £1.5m in August and Bailey Wright sold in January for 600k (ran his contract down). So £2.1m made in sales.

Therefore net spend is around -£1m.

We rejected £2m from Ipswich for Hugill and £2.5m for Robinson from Fulham in January too, so beyond the low figures spent, that's the ambition that goes unnoticed really. Not flogging our best assets.

The Garner situation was that he simply wasn't doing it at this level (doubt you are that surprised about that knowing Garner) and Wright unfortunately ran his deal down so they were slightly different situations. Every other major asset is signed up now for another 2 or 3 seasons.

As for your young lads rumoured to be interesting us, don't know how much they would cost but (no offence intended) as a club heading towards the third tier and financial oblivion would you be in a position to demand that much money for them?

So you've done two things on a limited budget that appear alien to those running Rovers.

Not flogging your best assets at every opportunity, and securing assets to long term contracts to prevent them leaving cheaply/easily.

Down at Ewood we've spent years listening to people telling us that its inevitable that we'll struggle to keep our better players and that keeping them tied down to good contracts just isn't possible.

I'm glad you've confirmed that the above isn't what happens at other clubs and that even on a limited budget it is possible to build a proper squad without a 15 player turnaround every summer.

As for the young lads you'll get all 3 for less than £1 million. Unless Mike Cheston and Paul Senior can pull a rabbit out of the hat and get another into a bidding war with you. I expect they'll be looking for a few quick, smooth sales to get the bills paid for the summer so as with Tom Cairney a couple of seasons ago I expect a cash sale early doors.

[JonnyP]

Just now, north_ender said:

Horgan looks quality. Boyle took a bit longer to get into the side but did well when he started a few games recently. Both haven't had a break for a long time due to the Irish season schedule and playing in Europe so they will probably come back even better next summer after a break and a proper pre-season over in England.

The real find was Barkhuizen from Morecambe who within 7 starts has already bagged 6, set up 2 and won the Championship player of the month.

That's good to hear I reckon if ye keep what you've got and make a couple of investments over the summer ye could have a decent go at trying to make the playoffs, those Irish lads also came in at a steal League of Ireland wages they would have taken anything just for the opportunity to play decent football regularly. Your scout network working well by the looks of things

[Lancaster Rover]

Just now, north_ender said:

Horgan looks quality. Boyle took a bit longer to get into the side but did well when he started a few games recently. Both haven't had a break for a long time due to the Irish season schedule and playing in Europe so they will probably come back even better next summer after a break and a proper pre-season over in England.

The real find was Barkhuizen from Morecambe who within 7 starts has already bagged 6, set up 2 and won the Championship player of the month.

I know Barky well and he's been brilliantly for you, you've had an absolute blinder there with how you came to *buy* him, Garners time at Blackpool/Morecambe's financial implosion has worked in your favour there!!

[davefarnworth]

Why listen to Preston laughing at our troubles? Rovers done by chancers without the acumen and the father figure. Fingers up to the Footbball Authorities and the rest of corruption. Never a penny from me unfortunately 

[chaddyrovers]

4 hours ago, north_ender said:

Sure I will answer. Overall transfer fee money spent from last summer and January is about £1.1m (on several cheap purchases).

Garner was sold for £1.5m in August and Bailey Wright sold in January for 600k (ran his contract down). So £2.1m made in sales.

Therefore net spend is around -£1m.

We rejected £2m from Ipswich for Hugill and £2.5m for Robinson from Fulham in January too, so beyond the low figures spent, that's the ambition that goes unnoticed really. Not flogging our best assets.

The Garner situation was that he simply wasn't doing it at this level (doubt you are that surprised about that knowing Garner) and Wright unfortunately ran his deal down so they were slightly different situations. Every other key asset is signed up now for another 2 or 3 seasons.

As for your young lads rumoured to be interesting us, don't know how much they would cost but (no offence intended) as a club heading towards the third tier and financial oblivion would you be in a position to demand that much money for them?

Thanks for the reply.

Getting rid of Garner has done you a big favour because Hugill has taking over 1st choice and done very well. Robinson is a class player. someone Rovers should have signed when Gestede went to Villa. We should have signed him then as I mention at the time. then last summer but Coyle didn't.

4 hours ago, north_ender said:

Horgan looks quality. Boyle took a bit longer to get into the side but did well when he started a few games recently. Both haven't had a break for a long time due to the Irish season schedule and playing in Europe so they will probably come back even better next summer after a break and a proper pre-season over in England.

The real find was Barkhuizen from Morecambe who within 7 starts has already bagged 6, set up 2 and won the Championship player of the month.

Barkhuizen is a good player and someone I was impressed by him when we played you recently

[north_ender]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Thanks for the reply.

Getting rid of Garner has done you a big favour because Hugill has taking over 1st choice and done very well. Robinson is a class player. someone Rovers should have signed when Gestede went to Villa. We should have signed him then as I mention at the time. then last summer but Coyle didn't.

Barkhuizen is a good player and someone I was impressed by him when we played you recently

Hugill has done a decent job this season and Garner's departure has allowed him to progress. However he still has a lot of limitations. Technically he is limited due to his non-league background, and he lacks composure with easy chances (usually one on ones). He's one of those strikers who seems to score the harder chances. Basically he's better when he doesn't have time to think. He divides opinion and when we were offered that money by Ipswich in January there was a lot of debate amongst fans as to whether we should cash in or not. Grayson likes him a lot though.

Our problem is that beyond the first few strikers, the others like Beckford, Doyle and May all do absolutely nothing. Makienok has fallen out of favour too.

Some PNE fans think if we had Blackburn's strikers i.e. Graham/Gallagher/Joao/Emnes then we'd be closer to the top 6. Not sure I buy that but you certainly shouldn't be down there with that selection of strikers.

[blueboy3333]

4 hours ago, north_ender said:

Some PNE fans think if we had Blackburn's strikers i.e. Graham/Gallagher/Joao/Emnes then we'd be closer to the top 6. Not sure I buy that but you certainly shouldn't be down there with that selection of strikers.

Owen Coyle.

 

[AllRoverAsia]

5 hours ago, north_ender said:

Hugill has done a decent job this season and Garner's departure has allowed him to progress. However he still has a lot of limitations. Technically he is limited due to his non-league background, and he lacks composure with easy chances (usually one on ones). He's one of those strikers who seems to score the harder chances. Basically he's better when he doesn't have time to think. He divides opinion and when we were offered that money by Ipswich in January there was a lot of debate amongst fans as to whether we should cash in or not. Grayson likes him a lot though.

Our problem is that beyond the first few strikers, the others like Beckford, Doyle and May all do absolutely nothing. Makienok has fallen out of favour too.

Some PNE fans think if we had Blackburn's strikers i.e. Graham/Gallagher/Joao/Emnes then we'd be closer to the top 6. Not sure I buy that but you certainly shouldn't be down there with that selection of strikers.

Graham and 3 loans add in serial misfit Stokes and that's how to build a team of strikers. Well they do kick in the general direction of goal but we are talking barn door banjo.

Graham appears to have thrown in the towel. I will be suprised if he ever plays again for Rovers and will leave in the summer.

Stokes will go in the summer after we have filled his wallet to pay his fines. Anthony sends hugs and kisses to Owen.

We have no chance of signing any of the 3 loaned strikers.

Mahoney and maybe Lenihan, Nyambe, Wharton and Tomlinson will be sold quite cheaply.

Its feasible that some other desperate team may bid for Steele and Lowe but our luck has been poor for years.

If Raya comes in for Steele now and performs well then he may be sold, hence we gave him a contract.

Who's .... can't be fu cking bothered.

[AllRoverAsia]

On the other hand one

 of the loan strikers or even Stokes, but it will not be Graham, could get hatricks against Forest and Bristol Ciy, win the games and stay up and become Rovers Legends.

Such things are dreams made of and all we as Rovers fans can do is dream and hope ...... and we all know what kills.

[Bigdoggsteel]

6 hours ago, AllRoverAsia said:

Graham and 3 loans add in serial misfit Stokes and that's how to build a team of strikers. Well they do kick in the general direction of goal but we are talking barn door banjo.

Graham appears to have thrown in the towel. I will be suprised if he ever plays again for Rovers and will leave in the summer.

Stokes will go in the summer after we have filled his wallet to pay his fines. Anthony sends hugs and kisses to Owen.

We have no chance of signing any of the 3 loaned strikers.

Mahoney and maybe Lenihan, Nyambe, Wharton and Tomlinson will be sold quite cheaply.

Its feasible that some other desperate team may bid for Steele and Lowe but our luck has been poor for years.

If Raya comes in for Steele now and performs well then he may be sold, hence we gave him a contract.

Who's .... can't be fu cking bothered.

If we go down I think stokes could be a big player for us.

 

Doubt anyone will bid for Lowe as he is out of contract. 

6 hours ago, AllRoverAsia said:

On the other hand one

 of the loan strikers or even Stokes, but it will not be Graham, could get hatricks against Forest and Bristol Ciy, win the games and stay up and become Rovers Legends.

Such things are dreams made of and all we as Rovers fans can do is dream and hope ...... and we all know what kills.

I was thinking/dreaming the same scenario myself. If ever there was a time for a player to write himself into Rovers legend, it is now. 

[AllRoverAsia]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

If we go down I think stokes could be a big player for us.

Doubt anyone will bid for Lowe as he is out of contract. 

I was thinking/dreaming the same scenario myself. If ever there was a time for a player to write himself into Rovers legend, it is now. 

Since the U23 game this week and the good reports on Stokes I have had a bit of a change of heart and hope he gets a chance this weekend to show he's eager...and to score.

I forgot re Lowe's contract. Maybe its been run down so he can get himself the best deal on a move. Good luck to him if thats the case.

One way or the other we arevin for a big rebuild this summer.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

Since the U23 game this week and the good reports on Stokes I have had a bit of a change of heart and hope he gets a chance this weekend to show he's eager...and to score.

I forgot re Lowe's contract. Maybe its been run down so he can get himself the best deal on a move. Good luck to him if thats the case.

One way or the other we arevin for a big rebuild this summer.

In fairness he has more reason to do well than most. He is still young enough at 28 where he could have a few good years, he is under contract so will either have to stay here or try to get a move elsewhere, some heroic displays in the last 5 games would go some way towards redemption for the off the field stuff. 

Here's hoping