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JoeH

Wigan Athletic (A) - Saturday 27th June (3pm)

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4 hours ago, arbitro said:

I would give Hilton a chance. I have seen him several times and is commanding of his area, has a presence and really good reflexes.

 

2 hours ago, neophox said:

I would give Buckley and Rankin-Costello starts until the end of season. 

Two good suggestions here. I have thought for most of the season that we just aren't good enough to make the play-offs and I'm being proved right.

In that case we should be planning for next season by playing Hilton or Fisher (whoever has the best potential), JRC, Buckley and maybe Thompson at left back. We must leave out Mulgrew, Johnson and Smallwood. DG could be useful off the bench and Tosin has to play every game for us.

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Any club serious about challenging for the playoffs would have strengthened in January, having lost their best player. 

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Had Tony called it a day and walked during lockdown, and our owners had appointed Warnock before Boro did, I wonder what we would be seeing now. Would we be scratching our heads at his team selection yet overjoyed at a strong, difficult-to-beat side who had just picked up 6 points and knocking on the play-offs' door?

I can but dream.

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1 hour ago, Fraserkirky said:

Any club serious about challenging for the playoffs would have strengthened in January, having lost their best player. 

Take the Dack situation in isolation and ignore all the other issues in our squad.

We lost Dack v Wigan well before the transfer window opened. We knew the moment it happened that he would be out for the season, possibly longer, and that we would have to cope without our best attacking talent.

I simply can't believe that we just sat back and allowed another window to pass by without any attempt to fill the Dack void, even just with a loan. 

Given the position we were in it seems senseless to not strengthen.

 

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Just now, JHRover said:

Take the Dack situation in isolation and ignore all the other issues in our squad.

We lost Dack v Wigan well before the transfer window opened. We knew the moment it happened that he would be out for the season, possibly longer, and that we would have to cope without our best attacking talent.

I simply can't believe that we just sat back and allowed another window to pass by without any attempt to fill the Dack void, even just with a loan. 

Given the position we were in it seems senseless to not strengthen.

 

I don’t feel like everyone is grasping just how close to the FFP limit we are. We can not afford to refund 200K to fans. We where never going to replace Dack which would require a loan fee, high wages and an agents fee. 

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Just now, J*B said:

I don’t feel like everyone is grasping just how close to the FFP limit we are. We can not afford to refund 200K to fans. We where never going to replace Dack which would require a loan fee, high wages and an agents fee. 

1) FFP rules are almost certain to be ignored or delayed due to Covid 19. UEFA have already confirmed their rules will be and the EFL are likely to follow. If they dont it is going to be impossible to enforce the rules given the collapse in income clubs have had.

2) If the rules aren't ignored and they try to enforce them then we will not be alone in having difficulties. Everyone will.

3) Derby, Reading, Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham have all broken the rules and yet none of them have been punished. Why are we worried about it?

4) We can afford refunds to supporters. We have chosen not to offer them because that is Waggott and his approach in a nutshell. Meanwhile Mowbray splurges tens of thousands of pounds on the likes of Sam Hart and Richie Smallwood to not play for us.

5) How come every other club, including those closer to Ffp threshold and those who have many more season ticket holders and stand to reimburse far more than we do, manages to find the money needed to do so?

6) When people refuse to renew in part due to Waggott's disgraceful approach to refunds, the Season ticket base will diminish further, causing further problems re. FFP in years to come. Short termism at its finest here.

7) If serious about going up and determined to do it, with owners keen to spend, we would have gone and got a replacement for Dack in the position we were in. If not willing or able to do so from just outside the top 6 at Xmas with the best player out long term, then when? 

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8 minutes ago, JHRover said:

1) FFP rules are almost certain to be ignored or delayed due to Covid 19. UEFA have already confirmed their rules will be and the EFL are likely to follow. If they dont it is going to be impossible to enforce the rules given the collapse in income clubs have had.

2) If the rules aren't ignored and they try to enforce them then we will not be alone in having difficulties. Everyone will.

3) Derby, Reading, Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham have all broken the rules and yet none of them have been punished. Why are we worried about it?

4) We can afford refunds to supporters. We have chosen not to offer them because that is Waggott and his approach in a nutshell. Meanwhile Mowbray splurges tens of thousands of pounds on the likes of Sam Hart and Richie Smallwood to not play for us.

5) How come every other club, including those closer to Ffp threshold and those who have many more season ticket holders and stand to reimburse far more than we do, manages to find the money needed to do so?

6) When people refuse to renew in part due to Waggott's disgraceful approach to refunds, the Season ticket base will diminish further, causing further problems re. FFP in years to come. Short termism at its finest here.

7) If serious about going up and determined to do it, with owners keen to spend, we would have gone and got a replacement for Dack in the position we were in. If not willing or able to do so from just outside the top 6 at Xmas with the best player out long term, then when? 

1) I agree, they’ll probably be relaxed. But we couldn’t have signed someone in January, which was pre-Covid, on the assumption that they would be relaxed. Our discussion is specifically about signing a Dack replacement in January when nobody was worried about Covid in the UK. 
2) Agreed, but as above, has no link back to the original point which for reference was replacing Dack in January. 
3) They’re all going to court over it. Takes a brave person to back themselves in a legal battle. 
4) You, like me, have no idea what Hart or Smallwood earn, or the contracts they have signed. They may well be on heavily reduced terms for the additional month. It’s not the same contract, it’s a 1 month extension. 
5) The clubs offering refunds are, on the whole, either not as close to FFP limits as we are OR have dodged them by tinkering with the rules, eg Derby (signed Rooney as a player coach to split his wages and took sponsorship money from 32Red) and Boro (sold ground to owner). 
6) It’ll be very interesting to see how many fans we lose because of it. I think the fact that you can stream every game at home for a small fee is more of a problem. 
7) Just to be clear you would have compromised the entire football club by knowingly breaking the FFP rules, getting a multi million pound fine in the process and a legal battle, based on where we where in January? I’m glad you’re not in control, that would have been one hell of a gamble. 

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Just now, J*B said:

1) I agree, they’ll probably be relaxed. But we couldn’t have signed someone in January, which was pre-Covid, on the assumption that they would be relaxed. 
2) Agreed, but as above, has no link back to the original point which for reference was replacing Dack in January. 
3) They’re all going to court over it. Takes a brave person to back themselves in a legal battle. 
4) You, like me, have no idea what Hart or Smallwood earn, or the contracts they have signed. They may well be on heavily reduced terms for the additional month. It’s not the same contract, it’s a 1 month extension. 
5) The clubs offering refunds are, on the whole, either not as close to FFP limits as we are OR have dodged them by tinkering with the rules, eg Derby (signed Rooney as a player coach to split his wages and took sponsorship money from 32Red) and Boro (sold ground to owner). 
6) It’ll be very interesting to see how many fans we lose because of it. I think the fact that you can stream every game at home for a small fee is more of a problem. 
7) Just to be clear you would have compromised the entire football club by knowingly breaking the FFP rules, getting a multi million pound fine in the process and a legal battle, based on where we where in January? I’m glad you’re not in control, that would have been one hell of a gamble. 

Sooner or later big decisions and gambles have to be made. If not then we can forget promotion. Ever.

Let's suppose we were 8 points clear at the top when Dack got injured. Would you have been happy doing nothing and jeopardising our best chance at promotion just to make sure we didn't run any Ffp risks?

Do we never sack a manager ever again because doing so might push us towards the limit even though not doing so could cost us League status or a chance of promotion?

All the clubs charged with breaking the rules have avoided punishment simply by taking the League on and challenging it. Their owners will have paid fortunes for good lawyers to advise them and clearly think they have a case to run. We are one of the few who meekly accepted our punishment, slashed our squad and got relegated to League One as a result and now use it as an excuse for everything rather than just admit the owners don't want to spend more.

'Compromised the entire football club' is a slight exaggeration. I don't accept that is what doing some business in January would have been. 

But yeah, if I were running the club and we were sat on the cusp of the top 6 in January with the star man out for the season and numerous other deficiencies in the squad I would have worked to address it in the window rather than hiding behind theoretical future problems from rules that other clubs have got away with breaking.

Looks like Derby with their Rooney stunt are going to show us that finding ways around these rules and taking them on is the way to go if you want promotion as they steam past us towards the top 6. They might go up, in which case they're laughing to the bank whilst Waggott wails about the same rules Derby broke.

I wish Venkys and their cohorts would grow some balls and take matters into their own hands rather than sitting on them moaning about everything.

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35 minutes ago, J*B said:

I don’t feel like everyone is grasping just how close to the FFP limit we are. We can not afford to refund 200K to fans. We where never going to replace Dack which would require a loan fee, high wages and an agents fee. 

I think of course we are close to FFP, but what I have highlighted is not true evident as @JHRover to the attitude we have taken on player contracts. If we was THAT close to the limit, quite simply we couldnt be so accommodating and would HAVE to be more ruthless on Smallwood, Hart etc.

The refund could be deferred and essentially held until season tickets are paid, in which case the actual sale will be guaranteed which now may not be the case with some, so the tactic they have adopted with refunds is not a fair indicator of the closeness to FFP.

Apparently we had 1.4m in the kitty (according to Waggott at the last fans forum in the minutes) for January. Of course that man is full of hot air but it would be a very specific amount to quote if it wasnt true.

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Just now, roversfan99 said:

I think of course we are close to FFP, but what I have highlighted is not true evident as @JHRover to the attitude we have taken on player contracts. If we was THAT close to the limit, quite simply we couldnt be so accommodating and would HAVE to be more ruthless on Smallwood, Hart etc.

The refund could be deferred and essentially held until season tickets are paid, in which case the actual sale will be guaranteed which now may not be the case with some, so the tactic they have adopted with refunds is not a fair indicator of the closeness to FFP.

Apparently we had 1.4m in the kitty (according to Waggott at the last fans forum in the minutes) for January. Of course that man is full of hot air but it would be a very specific amount to quote if it wasnt true.

I think it’s unlikely but theoretically everyone that has resigned for the additional month is on pay as you play. It could be that it’s not costing us a penny to have Smallwood or Hart around. 

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10 minutes ago, J*B said:

I think it’s unlikely but theoretically everyone that has resigned for the additional month is on pay as you play. It could be that it’s not costing us a penny to have Smallwood or Hart around. 

I know that finances arent his area but Mowbray mentioned last week that the additional cost of signing everyone up as a collective was worth it. He surely wouldnt say that if there wasnt a cost.

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7 minutes ago, J*B said:

I think it’s unlikely but theoretically everyone that has resigned for the additional month is on pay as you play. It could be that it’s not costing us a penny to have Smallwood or Hart around. 

Why would anyone agree to anything other than an extra month on the same terms as before? 

It wouldn't really  be worth their while to hang around otherwise and certainly not on a pay as you play basis,  you'd be coming in and training and making yourself available for free basically.

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1 hour ago, JHRover said:

Take the Dack situation in isolation and ignore all the other issues in our squad.

We lost Dack v Wigan well before the transfer window opened. We knew the moment it happened that he would be out for the season, possibly longer, and that we would have to cope without our best attacking talent.

I simply can't believe that we just sat back and allowed another window to pass by without any attempt to fill the Dack void, even just with a loan. 

Given the position we were in it seems senseless to not strengthen.

 

If we're being realistic I'm not sure how viable it would have been to replace Dack in January. How do you find someone of comparable quality on a permanent basis on a budget and how many Clubs would be prepared to let anyone of similar quality go out on loan?

Theoretically we had Holtby on the books who could maybe replace some of Dack's creativity  if not the goals. I've been really disappointed with his input since the return, I've no idea where he's meant to be playing and to me it looks like Mowbray has knocked all the fire and enthusiasm he had when he arrived out of him.

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Why would 200k have been refunded? Only a small proportion of the ST base would have requested a partial refund, so it wouldn’t have been close to that figure. 

I certainly wouldn’t have asked for £40 back, neither would most fans I know. But it was still a pisstake laying the sob story on thick that it would be loyal fans on the bones of their arse risking the ‘survival of the club’, whilst we have and continue to piss money up the wall...

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1 hour ago, JHRover said:

Take the Dack situation in isolation and ignore all the other issues in our squad.

We lost Dack v Wigan well before the transfer window opened. We knew the moment it happened that he would be out for the season, possibly longer, and that we would have to cope without our best attacking talent.

I simply can't believe that we just sat back and allowed another window to pass by without any attempt to fill the Dack void, even just with a loan. 

Given the position we were in it seems senseless to not strengthen.

 

is Holtby a perfect replacement for Dack which we already had in the squad, 

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

1) FFP rules are almost certain to be ignored or delayed due to Covid 19. UEFA have already confirmed their rules will be and the EFL are likely to follow. If they dont it is going to be impossible to enforce the rules given the collapse in income clubs have had.

3) Derby, Reading, Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham have all broken the rules and yet none of them have been punished. Why are we worried about it?

 

1. When is the EFL going to announce the FFP restrictions going to be relax because Clubs would need to know this before this season finishing so they can plan their transfer strategy for the summer transfer window opens. 

3. Is the Sheffield Wednesday decision this week?  

51 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 

Apparently we had 1.4m in the kitty (according to Waggott at the last fans forum in the minutes) for January. Of course that man is full of hot air but it would be a very specific amount to quote if it wasnt true.

was at the supporters consultation meeting he mention that figure?

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1 hour ago, J*B said:

I don’t feel like everyone is grasping just how close to the FFP limit we are. We can not afford to refund 200K to fans. We where never going to replace Dack which would require a loan fee, high wages and an agents fee. 

He was going to WBA for 15 million wasnt he? 

 

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Just now, chaddyrovers said:

He was going to WBA for 15 million wasnt he? 

 

So I was told, although we may perhaps have kept hold of him until summer considering we where play off chasing. 

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4 minutes ago, J*B said:

So I was told, although we may perhaps have kept hold of him until summer considering we where play off chasing. 

do you think they might come back in for him this summer?

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15 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

do you think they might come back in for him this summer?

I wouldn't consider signing Dack until I'd seen him play again multiple times if I was signing players for West Brom. Even then it would depend on what division they were in. If they get promoted I don't think Dack will be on their radar any longer.

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Plus when a player has had a serious injury like Dack has its not just physically he has to recover from,he has to be 100% mentally recovered so he will go into 50/50 challenges and stuff testing his knee out.If i was West Brom i'd wait until Jan and watched his return rather than spending on a player not yet back into the rough and tumble of football.

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1 minute ago, Darrenbot said:

Plus when a player has had a serious injury like Dack has its not just physically he has to recover from,he has to be 100% mentally recovered so he will go into 50/50 challenges and stuff testing his knee out.If i was West Brom i'd wait until Jan and watched his return rather than spending on a player not yet back into the rough and tumble of football.

Look at Dack's recent comments and he is well ahead of schedule and he talks about the mental side. 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, JoeH said:

Most people on here know that I'm a very big advocate for giving youth players game time, and often it's the source of many a debate for myself with other posters. But here I'd have to disagree. Walton was clattered (by whoever, our man or theirs) for the goal against Wigan - maybe a foul, maybe not. The team in general had played shit enough anyway though. Their goal was coming no matter what form it came in.

Fisher is a good shot stopper, but like Raya he's 5ft 11" (if that) and has literally ZERO first team Championship experience. So to answer the question "How Could Fisher Be Any Worse" I say, quite easily. My question would be, is there any evidence whatsoever to say he'd be better?

We've paid for Walton til the end of the season so we'd better get our use out of him. Fisher won't start next season so giving him minutes doesn't benefit us either.

Fisher is actually 189 cm just short of 6' 3". Don't read too much into his loans either. There are reasons he didn't play. However he cannot play for Rovers this season as he has been loaned to 2 clubs.

Edited by RagarF

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7 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

but what possible benefit is there from persisting with Walton, and him costing us week after week?

How could Fisher be any worse?

Sorry I meant Hilton 

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39 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Look at Dack's recent comments and he is well ahead of schedule and he talks about the mental side. 

You only know when you get out there in a real competitive game. After my injury I was fine in the gym playing five a side games and practice matches etc. When it was for real and blokes were sliding in on me it was another story all together. Prior to breaking my leg the rougher it got the more I liked it. After the leg break the realisation that it can happen so easily and you can be in a lot of pain and discomfort for months afterwards took the edge off my game. I'd had a few games for the reserves and done ok so I was promoted to sub for the first team. Just one sub in those days. I remember standing on the sidelines watching a game that turned out to be a bit of a ding dong  battle. I still don't like admitting it but I was hoping nobody had to come off because I didn't fancy going on . Prior to the injury I would have been chomping at the bit to get on. That was when I thought " Time to call it a day ".

What Dack needs is really good kick on the knee early on. And to come through that kick of course.

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