It did, in that Graham made way for him. Obviously the sub was not the main reason (forced or otherwise) for our collapse but you are naive to suggest that it had no impact on the game. Brereton didnt contribute positively. Graham was our best player pre-substitution. Uncharacteristically missing the point. Rayas idiocy was undoubtedly the trigger and the catalyst for 2 dropped points, but it was 2 nil at that time, why the total collapse? And more importantly, its far from the first time its happened! Every time it does you are closed minded, you investigate what caused it on the day, mistake or whatever, oblivious to the theme that theres on overall problem occurring, we keep throwing away points from favourable positions! It is not the sign of an efficient, fully functioning side. And youve put it down to a fluke goal, a bad ref decision, an individual error, whatever it is, and you might be right on them individual days, but totally naive to the overall issue. We are 22 games in. In that, we threw 2 points away at Ipswich, we got hammered from a winning position at Bristol City, we threw away 2 points at home to Villa, we threw 2 points away to Forest, we lost from a winning position at Swansea, we threw away 2 points against a 10 man Boro and again we threw away 2 points today. And almost topping all of these off, we were a penalty hitting the crossbar away from throwing a way a 3-0 lead from our best 80 minutes of the season. 16 points that we have thrown away, compared to 31 that we have. Is it reasonable to expect all of them to have been kept? No. But is that a worryingly high amount of points thrown away? Definitely. Is it fitness, is it psychological, is it tactical, is it a lack of quality, probably a bit of everything but it needs addressing. Brereton will continue to be a massive talking point due to his price tag, whether you like it or not. When he came on today he was poor, whereas Graham again was superb. On Graham youve backed yourself into a corner constantly writing him off and even last week contesting my claim that hes been easily one of our star performers this season. People acknowledge that hes yet to start, and we are basing it on sub appearances, but that all adds to the mystery.

Come home from a horrible, cold, rainy and windy day again pissed off at Rovers and their inability to see games out which means that I cant see any chance of a faint play off push even at this stage. Can see our season fizzling out and being over very early unless our results in the upcoming run of difficult games is particularly poor and we have to look over our shoulder. I read that we have won 4 out of 11 home games, that simply isnt good enough considering the points we have thrown away or failed to get. Yes you can point to a mistake as a turning point but its not right to brush it under the carpet because its a common theme. 2 weeks in a row we have thrown 4 points away totally needlessly and after doing all the hard work. I hope Mowbray is investigating and trying to solve why we have such a weak underbelly to throw away so many points, rather than putting it down to a specific error or decision and brushing it under the carpet, theres a deeper problem there. Graham was superb as always, Reed also very good, thought Evans was pretty neat and tidy aswell in the centre. Armstrong bar an excellent finish for the goal was poor, Dack was a bright spark and tried but not his best day, Smallwood poor again, centre backs ok, The 2 full back areas are massive weaknesses for us, Nyambe has seemingly turned back into the fragile player that broke in under Coyle, what was he doing for the second? And we have no cover for him. Bell is an absolute embarrassment of a player, needs replacing in Jan because hes never good enough, Williams is the lesser of 2 evils but down either flank we are so susceptible and often caught out. For a manager whose gained a reputation for being conservative at the club, and one who plays 2 defensive midfielders who are very limited, especially Smallwood, we concede far too many goals. Rayas mistake wasnt the first silly error hes ever made nor will it be the last. His kicking was terrible, he had the excuse of the wind today at least. The difference between Graham and Brereton is night and day. You can bang on about different types of strikers but Brereton wasnt even challenging for headers, he wasnt holding it up, his touch is awful, his positioning when the ball goes wide is poor in that he often is far too close to the wide man and not in the centre. I must say that hes still to start, but I do find the whole situation a bit bizarre, and I am basing my optimism for him on his reputation and price tag rather than anything I have seen for him. That being said, Danny Graham is a superb Championship striker, another goal and he makes the best out of rubbish service at times. @Bigdoggsteel you ask why theres so much focus on Brereton, he cost 7m so there will always be a lot of focus on him, to consider him as a scapegoat is both in-factual and laughable, considering the main conversation is about what else we could have spent with the money rather than the player himself. And all the while, Rothwell and Palmer continue to kick their heels on the sidelines!

Do one to Turf Moor. Problem solved.

Smallwood was, and continues to be, selected by Mowbray. You don’t think Brereton had any affect in the game/result? There’s really no way to respond to that. We seem to keep blaming our hardships on ‘individual errors’ but we are seemingly unable to see out a game without scoring three or more goals. If we keep conceding poor goals then we have the wrong personnel at the back - or the wrong tactics. Both are the manager’s responsibility. Lenihan is sadly not good enough for this division and Mulgrew is in the latter stage of his career. Yet we have spent millions on a substitute striker who doesn’t affect games rather than strengthen. Our centre midfield is a pair League One enforcers who can’t do this in the Championship. We have Raya and nobody to even push him, let alone put him under pressure for the jersey. These are the reasons that people become frustrated with the Brereton situation. We have wasted money we don’t have and neglected positions that need strengthening. Individual mistakes will happen but our issues are deeper than that. In 22 games we have conceded 2 or more goals in 10 and have 6 clean sheets, (effectively conceding 33 goals in those 16 games) with -4 GD. We rely on Dack (as does Graham) for goals. Take away him and Mulgrew’s set pieces and we don’t have a lot of goals in the team. Performances are less than convincing and we throw points away with alarming regularity. Fortunately for Mowbray he is under no pressure but that isn’t healthy either. Big January coming up. Acquisitions of Chapman and Gallagher will not impress. In fact, if those are the two we bring in it’s time to sack our scouts.

Some astute points already made. Agree with bigdog –most frustrating game this season. Highly annoying and Mogga’s interview, typically dour but sensible, didn’t help improve feelings in my household. Young side, we’ve just come up and so on –well yes, and before the start of the season I would have been happy with mid-table but some of the positions we find ourselves in with these games, it doesn’t really require genius to manage a game for a better result. The BlueNoses looked dispirited and the worst side I’ve seen here this season –no pressing of the ball, no urgency and some aimless long punts to little effect. So 2-0 up, without doing anything special in appalling conditions and on 76 mins Raya goes crackers rushing out for a ball and gives away a pen. Gardner (who galvanised them a little when he came on before that) duly converts. So 13 mins to survive by intelligent game management. Nah. They now have a little belief (something not present for the previous 79 mins). On 80 mins, can’t remember exactly how but we lose the ball, Gardner picks it up centrally and I lean over to wife and have time to say 3 times “he’s going to slot it inside Nyambe.” All Ryan has to do is make sure that his man is not going to get the ball –he seems to get mesmerised in no man’s land, the ball is duly slotted inside him and they score. 2-2. Cue head shaking from players and fans’ ire. So:- Where is the backbone when you need it? The leadership? The game management? The grit? At 2-0 nil up you work just as hard if not harder-didn’t happen. Lazy passing, not working as a unit. Agreed on the new personnel required –odd that such a large sum was used on a player who neither plays, or plays out of positon or doesn’t seem that effective On Graham –why should a team fall apart defensively when he goes off? Doesn’t account for a stupid goalie rush of blood and brainless right back defending. Agree that it was inevitable that his clockwork/fitness would run down in games and a replacement was necessary. Not sure Brereton is the answer. Looked like a floppy schoolboy to me today but it wasn’t his fault we drew Armstrong scored but just doesn’t seem interested to me-sulking because he is on the wing? Reed looked busy and lively and at it-effective centrally I would have thought Tony’s beloved 4231. No issue with it as such but strange that what is effectively a back 6 can leak so many goals. Perhaps that just comes down to players and ability. What is absolutely striking to me is the paucity of flair going forward. You could argue that today, in appalling conditions, that it didn’t really matter and was less of an issue and especially when you go 2-0 up. Perhaps that is more for another time, when we are drawing and can’t open a side up. One other thing –Raya cost us the game? Nope. He gave them some hope and it was 2-1 with 13 to go. That’s when you need the leadership and grit I mentioned above from all your players. Didn’t see it and the inevitable happened.

Spot on. I'm not interested in what Raya did. Focusing on individuals is missing the bigger picture. This backs to the wall hanging on rubbish has been going on for more than a year, only now we aren't getting away with it. It's a mentality and coaching issue and it occurs regardless of personnel.

Is anyone surprised? I'm certainly not, once they got one back the equaliser was inevitable. We are too soft and too many players go missing when the going gets tough instead of rolling their sleeves up and fighting. The engine room of Smallwood and Evans is always the first thing to evaporate, if I was Reed I'd be looking to move to a club where I am played in my best and most effective position as he is wasted out wide. But the result has to be on Mowbray today why is he taking Graham off has he learnt nothing from performances when Graham has not been playing this season, we can not afford to take Graham of as he is our key player and despite Mowbray spending £7 Million on Brereton we don't have anyone capable of replacing Graham. After a promising start to the season the defence has as I feared been shown not to be up to it at this level which is not really a surprise as we struggled to keep clean sheets last season in League 1 and no new defenders have been added. Nyambe has been well off the pace since his injury, Lenihan looks well out of place at this level as a centre back and as for Bell I've seen statue's with more energy. A big, physical ball winning centre back to play alongside Mulgrew is a must in January but it has been what we have needed for 3 or 4 windows now.

I think blaming the comeback purely on Raya's mistake is focusing too much on one issue and not the whole problem. Yes in this game it was clearly his error that gave them the penalty and the foothold to come back into it but they scored 2 goals, and sadly we've thrown away winning positions far too many times this season for them all to be ascribed to individual error or bad fortune. It's a common theme, we're becoming experts at letting winning positions slip and ultimately when happens so frequently you have to look holistically at the team and its approach to winning positions. Do we have what it takes to protect winning positions effectively? If not why not when we've 2 defensive CMs playing all the match every match? Simply to say it is all Raya's fault and we'd all be happily ever after if he hadn't done what he did I don't think is entirely right. There's a bigger picture in play of a team that for 18 months has been uncomfortable in winning positions and never far away from handing the opposition a leg up.

When bringing up the stats of our dropped points this season, it was said that stat was pointless. Well I bring it up again, now 16 points dropped from winning positions (nearly 18 stoke game) that's the most in the league, it's becoming a bit a joke now, and highlights the poor transfer window, of which defenders were and still are needed and a replacement for Smallwood.

Graham was holding his back before he went off. To suggest that though was the reason for dropped points is nonsense as we were comfortable and Birmingham hardly threatened. The game turned on Raya's stupidity which gave Birmingham a foothold but as importantly a huge lift. Without Raya's idiocy I'm convinced we would have seen the game out comfortably irrespective of who came on or went off.

Isn't this the problem? All debated here at length but TM went ahead collecting mid-fielders whom he doesn't pick and ignoring the key positions we all identified. And this is where Brereton comes in. Its not that he's to blame for the result, its people thinking that we could have sorted out those key positions for less than 7M. That's why the focus is often on Brereton. So, we should be looking at" what did Brereton do when he came on?" Isn't the answer "not much"? Haven't we made a big mistake here? Its no good keep arguing "we can't judge Brereton till he's played a run of full games." He has not shown enough to be given that chance. In any case, the formation TM prefers doesn't allow 2 upfront in the middle which, apparently, is the only place Brereton can play! That position is Graham's till he can no longer walk! Finally, as many have said, too much faith is being put in the players that took us up. Perhaps that's why TM did not address glaring issues in the transfer window. I think we will be at least 5 points off the play-offs by the end of the season and look back at what could have been. TM has done a great job for us so far but he might not be the man to take us further. That's the sad conclusion I reach.

Of course the fee is, and should, be a talking point.

There always seem to be a catalyst for a collapse and it always seems to be a defensive howler either by the keeper or the back 4. That could be just a lack of experience or it could be that the players aren't good enough (yet). Even Mulgrew, who is meant to provide the experience, defended appallingly for the Bannan goal against Wednesday t'other week. We got out of this league the last two times with battle hardened CB's and experienced GK's. We have a backline of relative novices at the moment in comparison. I think mistakes and collapses will continue for that very reason.

Raya has got away with a lot of poor performances in the last 18 months. He makes great saves but the number of avoidable goals he gives away is criminal. He's been a lot better this season and not thrown as many in his own net but he needs competition so he can be dropped like every other keeper at every other club. The lack of competition brought in for Raya is another reason why this summers transfer business was so poor.

I would say there is a bigger gap between League 1 and the championship, than between the championship and Premier league

Goals and build his confidence. I am surprised he hasn't had a few run outs with them to be honest. Rodwell and Downing have played with them this season.

Actually that is wrong pal The convo is not about Brereton coming on. It is about Graham going off. As soon as it happens we are usually fucked.

Can’t blame Brereton for the result today at all, a lot of people have made this point but only a select few could be argued to have singled him out for criticism. Think this point has been made into a bigger issue than it is... I stick by the fact he cannot be blamed for today but I’ll also stick by my opinion that for a club with questionable finances, for us to have spent 7 million pounds on an unproven 19 year old is f**king crazy.

They weren't wrong.

In episode 2 two scouts go and watch Bell play for Fleetwood against Scunthorpe. Make a comment about him wearing gloves when it’s not cold and then agree “there’s better out there than him.”

In fairness there were at least two defenders in front of him. One of them blocked his shot. It's baffling to me that he is being singled out. He had a few decent touches and I don't recall him doing anything bad. We looked a combination of lazy and nervous at 2-0 up. Lenihan played one absolutely shocking pass to Mulgrew. Now if Brereton did that, there would be uproar on here. Nyambe and Bell lost the ball a number of times, they were also caught out of position. People need to ask themselves why are they singling Brereton out. It seems some fans on here focus on a particular scapegoat and regardless of what they do, they will always be blackened. You could list out the players who fell into that category over the years.

I'm not. Raya's idiocy was no surprise but had he not done that I'm sure we would have found a way to let them back in elsewhere. Winning a game comfortably isn't something we do sadly, at best it is hanging on to a one goal lead.

Never said it was I was talking about Graham and how we have nobody even close to being able to play his role when Tony takes him off... and then we chuck points away as a result... over and over again.

AGAIN Been saying it for months. He must be kept on the pitch or we have nobody else who can win balls up top and get us playing in their half. Ball just ends up constantly in our half with everyone getting sucked deep. It happens time and time and time again. Brereton looked like a lost schoolboy when he came on.

The alternative is Williams. Choosing between them is like deciding which b*llock you’d prefer to be whacked in.

You only have to look at the effect taking Graham has on our results, we don't score and we are under the cosh more defensively as we don't have anyone to keep hold of the ball when we clear it so instead it comes straight back at us. Do you think it is purely coincidence the amount of points dropped when Graham has been taken off? As for you comments about Evans and Smallwood I have long said that they should not be playing in midfield together, Reed should be in there instead of being wasted out of position. As for Bell why is Mowbray even picking him has he not seen enough of him now to know that he is useless.

I don't remember feeling as comfortable about a game as I did today at 2-0 up. A thoroughly disinterested Birmingham were beaten and didn't look like they had anything in them and had settled for a two goal defeat. And then Raya gives away the most stupid penalty I have seen in a long time. What on earth he was doing out there I don't know but to make the challenge with his feet shows how random his decision making is sometimes. And when they scored I really felt they whoever another and perhaps go on and win it. Quite frankly we just concede too many goals without the opposition having to work hard or through their own creativity. We are suspect defensively and today both full backs looked full of mistakes. I am still strongly of the opinion that we need to get to fifty points sooner rate than later or we could be in for a turbulent couple of months at the end of the season.

The issue isn't taking Graham off he needs to be managed that way now to get the best out of him the real issue is not having another guy to take his place therefore altering the way it's going. Dress it up all you want but this lack of prep and acquiring another target man knowing full well you are going to be playing that way this season and whizzing your money on a might be might not be overated kid is piss poor. Yet again a proper commanding centre back and another proper target man type could be the difference between a comfortable season and a worrying one. We are falling down with the same old problems w eek in week out.

This team lacks a Ryan Nelson style leader of a central defender who defends first over anything. It also lacks a commanding centre midfielder who can take control of a game. If those two positions could be sorted then this team could get top 6 without a doubt. Never going to blame the Brereton lad because he doesn't set his price at 7 million and I genuinely think he will be a very good player but to spend that kind of money on one player is naive. For 7 million you could have bought the best centre back in the league or the best centre midfielder. I'd be looking to replace Smallwood and Lenihan come the next window with them dropping to bench options along with Downing.

What's sad is that the playoffs are there to be taken this season. Better investment in the summer and either a coach or a different manager who could organise a defence and this could have been a very interesting season. As it stands it's going to be a season of wasted opportunities, with poor summer investment meaning we're still a long way from even being back to where we were three years ago, let alone when Venky's first darkened the doors of Ewood with their presence.

2-2, then. Mowbray needs to be careful. Letting the fans down like this repeatedly will become almost as insidious as losing matches. We're already at the point where unless we're 3 or 4 goals up we can't trust the team to see the game out. That's not a situation that can continue for long.

Sod Lowe he's irrelevant but sending Bolton down would be sweet for a whole host of reasons it could be a highlight near the end of what will probably turn out to be a modest but respectable season

It also adds weight to the argument that perhaps, at this point in our development as a team under Mowbray, that spending such a large sum on a player unable to provide competition was not a wise idea.

A continuing saga. Too many drawn games, points thrown away, inability to see out matches when leading, a lack of ruthlessness to get the job done, because the same defensive frailties are apparent every week and Mowbray doesn't have a clue how to address them. This isn't a great division and a playoff place would surely be attainable with a manager with more nous. The club at present is going nowhere under Mowbray.

The lads an investment and preventing him full 90 minutes game time could be damaging his development. Not been to many u23s this season but would love to see what he can offer from the start of game albeit at a lower level.

Just shows how utterly abysmal League 1 is really.

Have to agree. Even after raya gave the penalty away we where still winning with ten minutes to go. A team with any organisation, character and tenacity would see that game out.

Yep, and Stoke weren't causing us any problems when 3-0 up at their place yet we let them back in, Middlesbrough, Ipswich, Forest, the list goes on. We don't do comfortable wins. We've only won 1 by more than a single goal this season. I'm afraid I don't believe that we'd have cruised to victory had Raya not made a mistake, someone somewhere would have made a mistake or we'd have ended up sat really deep and they'd have had a chance. It happens regularly. We might have been 'looking' to score at third but I don't recall many decent chances to make that happen, except the (Reed?) shot from the edge of the area which was well saved.

He would look good in most positions because he works his socks off, is a good tackler, tidy and has a brain. Putting him in the middle wouldnt stop him getting forward. There is no reason why at times we shouldn't expect our centre midfielders to get forward and be creative. We should put him in the middle and put Rothwell on the wing, particularly at home. A game like today was there for the taking if we were braver.

I've just about had it with some people on this board singling out Brereton as a reason why we lost a 2-0 lead today. The lad has barely played 90 mins in total so far. Defensive frailties are the main cause of us losing points throughout the season. This must be addressed in January or we will see ourselves sliding down the table rapidly.

Mowbray did pick them and they got us into a comfortable 2-0 lead with 15 mins left to play. If these players were as bad as some on here are making out then surely that would never have happened - we should be getting rolled over week in week out if you believed the pundits on here, since we have no decent full backs, no proper wingers, no central midfield, no creativity going forward, no commanding centrehalf - it's a miracle that we not 20 points adrift at the foot of the table really ? Raya cost us two points today - not Mowbray, not Brereton, not a mentality of sitting back or anything else. It was a brainfart moment from the goalkeeper which gifted them a way back into a game that was all but won up to that point. And if anyone thinks that Mowbray didn't read him the riot act after the game then they obviously don't sit as close behind him as we do - he was absolutely livid on the touchline in that second half

Give me Williams every day. If we are going to progress long term is he the answer, no. But I would have him over Bell every day I've seen Williams have plenty of good games but I've never been impressed by Bell every game he plays he just looks so lethargic.

I’m not convinced that Mowbray or his tactics made Raya come charging out and give away a ridiculous penalty, nor made Bell and then Evans give the ball away cheaply and Smallwood completely sell himself instead of covering round. And, for however poorly Brereton did when he came on, he too had no effect on those things either. And without them we’d have cruised to a comfortable 2-0 victory - maybe Mowbray should get credit for coaching us into such a commanding position in the first place

Odd angle to come at considering all the other things that went on today

No. I'm not saying I would have sacked or indeed would sack Mowbray either, but the fact remains for all the positives he's brought to the club - and there's plenty - he's never solved our defensive issues. I would rather he'd have brought in a coach or a better assistant in the summer to sort our defence out, as it's our achilles' heel. Some fans ignored it in League One because we were still winning matches as it was easy to outscore the opposition, not so much this season and a blind eye can't be turned anymore.

No point signing them if Mogga's not gonna play em.

I genuinely don't think this guy will ever reach his full potential. His body shape, lifestyle, fame chasing and general lack of dedication (and IQ) will, in my opinion, be his downfall sooner rather than later (I have the feeling he'll end up injury prone, much like Dunn did). If we sell him for more than £20m, he'll never fetch anywhere near that again. However, he undoubtedly still has a lot to offer us in the immediate present/ future. I hink we need to sell him whilst his stock is high, but try to get every last bit of worth out of him first. My instinct says the summer would be the best time to get shut, but time will tell.

Stuff Little Fingers - Alternative Ulster

He has been phenomenal this season. He's got to be in Leicesters match day squad at a minimum next season

Sham 69 - If the Kids are United