[Archived] Italian Refereeing Scandal

[Esulx]

Oops, meant to put Chievo Verona (its only one team)

[tchocky]

Loving it. But I won't celebrate until the season starts and the verdict is final. Bit disappointed that Milan didnt go down.

[Paul]

Latest:

Milan have had 44 points deducted from their 2005/06 league total.

The BBC are reporting, on radio, it is a 44 point deduction for next season. I can't find it on the web but I've heard it twice on the radio this evening.

[stuwilky]

The BBC are reporting, on radio, it is a 44 point deduction for next season. I can't find it on the web but I've heard it twice on the radio this evening.

Deducted 44 from 05/06, start 06/07 on -15

[Mr. E]

it's been a long, long time coming.

[LeChuck]

They wont get relegated but I dont think they will get promoted either.

Well...if they had been in Serie B this season, I believe the only way to avoid relegation with a minus 30 start would be to get promoted.

[s_simpson_9]

this is just amazing.

I cant believe that Juve and Lazio are gone.

Juve will be skinned.

I wonder how it will impact them financially and how long it will take them to get back to where they are now (or were) - you know what I mean.

Crazy scenes.

Edited July 15, 2006 by s_simpson_9

[Philly Rover ®]

The one thing that may save Juventus in all of this (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here) is that each of the Italian clubs negotiate their own TV contracts, unlike the Premier League, which of course acts on behalf of all 20 clubs. While Juve's income will certainly go down for the next year or (more likely) two years while they're stuck in Serie B, it's not as drastic a situation as it would be for, say, Chelsea because they will still get a silly amount of income from TV companies who know that no matter what division Juventus is in, people will still tune in to watch their games far more often that Empoli or Messina.

[philipl]

You are right Philly Rover- that is why I forecast that this was going to have a devastating impact on Serie A overall although AC not going down through lack of evidence (someone close to Berlusconi was efficient) doesn't make it the wipe out it could have been.

Even so probably getting on for 25% of Serie A's turnover is now sitting in Serie B.

Juve still retain their prawn sandwich supporters or in their case take home pizzas as nobody goes to watch their matches in the 70,000 Stade della Alpe anyway. So Juve's TV income will have a high floor through which it won't fall in terms of Juve's own TV station.

However, are national and international broadcasters going to abandon Serie A just because Juve have two seasons of kick-ball in Serie B (assuming the 30 point deduction doesn't see them go down at the end of 2006/7)? I doubt it. Serie B gets minimal coverage in Italy never mind elsewhere.

Next season at least, the games against Lazio and Fiorentina will be anything but formalities whilst you can imagine 16 Italian Burnleys relishing the prospect of kicking lumps out of them- 32 games where the opposition are playing David v Goliath cup tie football is not a pleasant prospect. So dropping to Serie C has to be a scenario the Juve finance director will have to have a contingency for which will constrain any planning for a rapid phoenix.

And Juve are in reality at least three seasons away from European football where the other really big money is.

And if G14 are true to their rules, Juve will be kicked out for being relegated.

I suspect Juve's cost base is high enough for there to be real problems sustaining the club at a level where it could immediately become a force again three years from now. That is a long time for supporters to stay loyal especially as criminal processes which are open (as opposed to the closed Sporting Tribunal) are likely to start which will provide a continual drip of unsavoury revelations into the press. A lot of Juve's more distant support could well drift away under a constant barrage of shame.

Edited July 15, 2006 by philipl

[Paul]

30 points??? dear god - whats the chances of them getting relegated?

Pretty high I would say. Last season avoiding relegation to Serie C required 40 points, so Juve have to win 23 and draw 1 simply to avoid relegation. To put that in perspective last season's Serie B champions, Atalanta W - 24, D - 9, L - 9. So Juve require championship winning form just to avoid relegation. In Serie A last season Juve results were W - 27, D - 10, L - 1 and that we know is a highly dubious record.

The Juve coach/manager has to motivate his team to play at championship winning level all season purely to avoid relegation. That will be an amazing feat. I think a small bet on Juve being relegated next season would be worthwhile. Based on last season Juve will need to win 36 and draw 1 game for an automatic promotion spot, that would be pretty good.

[FourLaneBlue]

Pretty high I would say. Last season avoiding relegation to Serie C required 40 points, so Juve have to win 23 and draw 1 simply to avoid relegation. To put that in perspective last season's Serie B champions, Atalanta W - 24, D - 9, L - 9. So Juve require championship winning form just to avoid relegation. In Serie A last season Juve results were W - 27, D - 10, L - 1 and that we know is a highly dubious record.

Even with some outgoing players it is likely Juve would still be by far the strongest team in the league and certainly head and shoulders above this season's champions Atalanta. They wouldn't be relegated but promotion would be tough...albeit not impossible.

As a forty-two game season, last season Juve would have needed at least 108 points to be automiatically promoted (Catania were promoted as runners-up with 78 points) however the play-offs feature the sides that finish in 3rd to 6th place. The sixth place finisher last year was Cesena with 66 points, meaning Juve would need 96 points if we are to judge by the last season. They'll be dumping players if this ruling sticks but they are still likely to get over 100 points I'd wager...

...however, I'd also wager that on appeal some things will change. Whether for harsher punishment or more lenient we shall see!

[philipl]

I still think getting 96 points in Serie B is a massive ask for Juve for the reasons I've given above. Don't think they'll go down but the plans they make have to allow for a Serie C contingency.

There is a chilling comment at the end of this Guardian article:

http://football.guardian.co.uk/continental...1821168,00.html

"It is a big business now and the big clubs can no longer leave winning to chance."

That makes this not a uniquely Italian scandal. It reaches into UEFA (it was the telephone tap of a conversation about the appointment of Urs Meier for Juve v Ajax which triggered the investigation) but doesn't that statement sound very redolent of the Premiership?

I still think the run of decisions favouring the Mancs against the Rovers is no accident- including three card trick's performance at OT this year in the League Cup semi-final.

[RevidgeBlue]

There is a chilling comment at the end of this Guardian article:

http://football.guardian.co.uk/continental...1821168,00.html

"It is a big business now and the big clubs can no longer leave winning to chance."

That makes this not a uniquely Italian scandal. It reaches into UEFA (it was the telephone tap of a conversation about the appointment of Urs Meier for Juve v Ajax which triggered the investigation) but doesn't that statement sound very redolent of the Premiership?

I still think the run of decisions favouring the Mancs against the Rovers is no accident- including three card trick's performance at OT this year in the League Cup semi-final.

In answer to your second paragraph - "sure does"

In answer to your third paragraph - agreed. Two identical handball incidents? Still by no means the worst example over the years though.

I was thinking the same thing myself this morning, i.e. "Now for ManUre, Arsenal, Chelski, Liverpool."

Unfortunately then the alarm clock went off.

[thenodrog]

I was thinking the same thing myself this morning, i.e. "Now for ManUre, Arsenal, Chelski, Liverpool."

Unfortunately then the alarm clock went off.

Me too Rev! 9 mins extra time ! Shearers 'shove in the back' on keane that NO buggr in OT even bothered to claim for! etc etc

I'll bet their were more than a few people feeling like somebody had walked over their grave all across Europe last night.

[Ronin]

Would be interesting if The Premiership ever went about trying to "clean" the league up and if any of the Big clubs would be affected. I'm sure there would, if I remember quotes by Jeff Winter, I think it was, saying that refs are definitely biased towards the bigger clubs in fear of not reffing again. Sounds nearly similar to the Italian situation.

[grizfoot]

Being one of the teams affected on FM will be a good challenge next season

[james19830822]

Of couse the Mancs are the club that gained most by affecting the refrees. They will win nothing without that in last 2 decades!

[OJRovers]

I doubt that any of the clubs in this country would actually be as blatent at bribing the refs (bar possibly Abramovich - there is rumours he has sent hits on people hlding his business back in the past.)

but the main thing to come from Italy is the pressure that big clubs put on referees - Jeff Winter admitted that he would think twice about giving the opposition a penalty at old trafford (to t5he away side)

John Terry's goalkeeper handballs in the penalty area come to mind with Chelsea, as does Rovers vs Utd at old trafford in WC Semi Final when Uriah Rennie booked lucas neill for diving when it was a blatent penalty (I think he said after that it was a penalty THANKS A LOT!)

Edited July 15, 2006 by OJRovers

[RevidgeBlue]

I doubt that any of the clubs in this country would actually be as blatent at bribing the refs

They don't have to. What seems to happen in this country is:

Ferguson rants on in the press about how such and such a referee is "incompetent" and not fit to referee top flight games etc whenever any decisions go against them.

Result:

1) That referee mysteriously seems not to be given control of any game involving ManUre for five or six seasons.

2) Other referees are intimidated into not giving any decisions against ManUre.

3) Ferguson gets off scot free.

Another example is Mourinho complaining about us being "bully boys" and being borderline libellous about a fellow manager.

Result:

Others teams are scared stiff of tackling a Chelsea player, or if they do referees feel duty bound to take action.

It's also my impression that Wenger has become far more out spoken about referees in the last couple of years, although I can't quote any specific examples.

A ten point deduction every time we have one of those sort of outbursts would do just fine.

[Finch]

They don't have to. What seems to happen in this country is:

Ferguson rants on in the press about how such and such a referee is "incompetent" and not fit to referee top flight games etc whenever any decisions go against them.

Result:

1) That referee mysteriously seems not to be given control of any game involving ManUre for five or six seasons.

2) Other referees are intimidated into not giving any decisions against ManUre.

3) Ferguson gets off scot free.

Another example is Mourinho complaining about us being "bully boys" and being borderline libellous about a fellow manager.

Result:

Others teams are scared stiff of tackling a Chelsea player, or if they do referees feel duty bound to take action.

It's also my impression that Wenger has become far more out spoken about referees in the last couple of years, although I can't quote any specific examples.

A ten point deduction every time we have one of those sort of outbursts would do just fine.

Everyone knows that the big clubs get more than their fair share of decisions go their way (eg. Alan Smiths 4min of extra time equaliser against us after Fergie managed to get another min added on to the original 3 mins )

but what I dont understand is why the officials are intimidated by these clubs in the first place? Just what is it they seem to have over them? Maybe someone could explain it to me.

It reminds me of the character of "Grouty" in Porridge. Even the screws and the Governer wouldnt dare cross him!

[philipl]

Perhaps the comments which have emerged about RFW's influence and refs being intimidated at big clubs coupled with the Italian experience will result in a more robust approach from the refs this season. Then pigs might fly.

Two developments -

There are suggestions that Inter and Real might find that Chelsea, Arsenal, Mancs and Liverpool will get to the Serie A honeypot ahead of them. Perhaps the reason why the Mancs seem to be letting the Carrick transfer collapse is that they've seen a Kean replacement in Gattuso.

AC have eyes on the UEFA Cup because the 44 point deduction leave them on 44, one point behind Empoli who are not licensed for European competition. As that license was withheld by Italian bureaucracy, it seems unlikely that the Italians/UEFA are not rectifying that situation pronto.

We will see who will be right about this scandal impacting Rovers' summer transfer dealings or not.

Edited July 16, 2006 by philipl

[FourLaneBlue]

I still think getting 96 points in Serie B is a massive ask for Juve for the reasons I've given above. Don't think they'll go down but the plans they make have to allow for a Serie C contingency.

There is a chilling comment at the end of this Guardian article:

http://football.guardian.co.uk/continental...1821168,00.html

"It is a big business now and the big clubs can no longer leave winning to chance."

That makes this not a uniquely Italian scandal. It reaches into UEFA (it was the telephone tap of a conversation about the appointment of Urs Meier for Juve v Ajax which triggered the investigation) but doesn't that statement sound very redolent of the Premiership?

I still think the run of decisions favouring the Mancs against the Rovers is no accident- including three card trick's performance at OT this year in the League Cup semi-final.

In answer to your speculations I can only say to look at how Fiorentina recovered. As a club they are nothing compared to Juve yet their resurrection was irresistable.

Mind you...they did seem to get a wee bit of help thanks to handing out the lire...

Don't think they'll go down but the plans they make have to allow for a Serie C contingency.

Nope sorry that is up there with your prediction for United to finish fifth last season...strange you resurrected the Bellamy thread to prove yourself right a year on yet not that prediction league eh?

EDIT - If it's any consolation I'm rubbish at all predictions!

Edited July 16, 2006 by FourLaneBlue

[philipl]

So unlike me, you agree with Juve Manager Deschamps and think that relegation to Serie C at the end of next season is quite probable then?

[FourLaneBlue]

So unlike me, you agree with Juve Manager Deschamps and think that relegation to Serie C at the end of next season is quite probable then?

Err...yep! Read it completely wrong sorry philipl.

My fault! I'm, as they say in Chinese...feihua!*

* = rubbish!

Edited July 16, 2006 by FourLaneBlue

[philipl]

Just to help- there are 42 games which means a max of 126 points in Serie B.

Offsetting the 30 points penalty, going by last season, they'd need 117 points for automatic promtion, 96 points for a play-off place and 75 points would see them relegated (9 points more than the team finishing 6th got last time).

There are Lazio and Fiorentina kicking around in that league as well next season...

Edited July 16, 2006 by philipl