[Archived] Gary Bowyer Discussion

[Gav]

short gets shorty support ,the irony hahaha good job we didnt sign shane long .

I'm reporting you to the mods....!

[ABBEY]

[USABlue]

I beg to differ den but Howard Kendall was only a coach at Stoke City when the Rovers employed him as manager. It was his first managerial appointment. I would also suggest that the situation is exactly the same due to the introduction of FFP. Owners can't just put large amounts of money in without running the risk of huge fines and transfer embargoes. Bowyer is trying to improve the team to take the club forward and return to the Premier League - it was spelt out in numerous interviews over the weekend. However, it is seen as a long term project and in the short term there will have to be selling to try to balance the books and get the club on a level which is in keeping with the revenue streams we have at present. Gates of ten to twelve thousand aren't compatible with playing players £30,000 and £40,000 per week. For me the situation is exactly as it was in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and it's one of the reasons why I believe that in the long term Bowyer is the right man to be manager.

Didn't Kendall start here as player/manager. If memory serves that was correct.

[ABBEY]

he did

[USABlue]

You have been writing a narrative for weeks PB, to show that was has happened to us was part of the natural order of things. Jack Walker came and transformed us, then he died. Inevitably without his support we sank to our natural level and here we are.

Its rubbish.

Jack left a legacy which has been trashed. We spent 2 decades in the Premiership, we were secure in mid-table and would have gradually developed under Sam as Bolton had before us. We had manageable debt and if we'd been managed properly as we had been, we'd have been sustainable, especially with the new broadcasting deals.

Its all been thrown away.

Worse it continues to be thrown away and our best chance of a return to the Premiership has gone with it.

The brief is now to buy players to sell on. It was never that. Great day yesterday and shows how much goodwill still exists from supporters. But the owners and the rest of the hangers-on are not worthy of it and there is plenty of further damage yet to be done.

Todays Mirror, "79 million in debt and about to lose half of his team in the summer" (Not the exact quote but close)

Never.that? It's always been so here.except for Jacks tenure we have always.raised amd sold our best talent.

[Parsonblue]

The problem is PB that we have gone backwards this season. It's that that makes me unhappy. The product on offer (and like it or not modern football is a product as much as it's anything else) is tedious in the extreme and the league position is not as good. We are miles off playoff places. I don't see any comparisons with Kean in that bowyer is honest and down to earth and you see occasionally as on bt this weekend the sparks of humour when he feels comfortable and is with guys he understands who aren't asking awkward questions. But in most tv interviews he comes across as as dull as most of the football we've seen played, uninspiring and making excuses. I want bowyer to succeed still but success has to include seeing my team do well on the pitch and not just for random fa cup games. It has to include some excitement. It has to include hope of progress in terms of league position. It has to see the manager progressing, getting more right than wrong, building a team with some chance of keeping the core of it going together. I don't expect the best years of the premier league to come back instantly. I've spent most of my football watching life watching lower league football. But I do expect progress however slow to be made. And this year I can't see it. I really can't.

Gumboots, I've seen seasons when we have done well, the next season poorly, and the following season well again - and all with the same manager and without anyone demanding a sacking. Football isn't that predictable that you can have continual progress with blips. We've had excellent managers in the past who have been allowed poor seasons without being hounded continually by a baying mob, so to speak.

Didn't Kendall start here as player/manager. If memory serves that was correct.

Correct. It was his first job in management.

[USABlue]

Add OGS and wee Dougie to that list and you have all the managers most people fancied to take over at Ewood.

Whilst Bowyer has his faults, he's done a much better job than all those higher profile managers have.

Dont forget Coyley and Rosler and Adkins and McDermott. A lot more than 3 flops vs the 2 successes touted here. It is for the most part a crap shoot.

I am very amused with this theory that Bowyer is simply bringing in players to sell on. Think of the positives you detractors are actually heaping on Bowyer if he is doung that. All this because of what? Gestede. One player he has signed with a significant sell on value.

[ABBEY]

23 points off promotion last year? two crap seasons in a row for a bowyer reign

[DE.]

I am very amused with this theory that Bowyer is simply bringing in players to sell on.

It's hardly a theory - Bowyer admitted that it's a huge part of his job in this weekend's newspaper interviews.

[47er]

Dont forget Coyley and Rosler and Adkins and McDermott. A lot more than 3 flops vs the 2 successes touted here. It is for the most part a crap shoot.

I am very amused with this theory that Bowyer is simply bringing in players to sell on. Think of the positives you detractors are actually heaping on Bowyer if he is doung that. All this because of what? Gestede. One player he has signed with a significant sell on value.

Well I'm relying on his own words as reported in the Saturday Mirror. Seems like you are his detractor because you don't believe him.who said its limited to Gusted anyway?

[Gav]

It was also in Allardyces and Hughes remit to do the same, it's simply how a club our size survives.

[47er]

No Gav. Neither bought players to sell them on.They may have sold them on but that's a different thing. Nor were that judged on their ability to sell on. They stood or fell on their results in games.

This changed when Kean came in and continues now.

Some people struggling to make the distinction. Pity because it is really important.

[USABlue]

It's hardly a theory - Bowyer admitted that it's a huge part of his job in this weekend's newspaper interviews.

My mistake, I did not see that, obviously. My apologies.

[thenodrog]

Add OGS and wee Dougie to that list and you have all the managers most people fancied to take over at Ewood.

Whilst Bowyer has his faults, he's done a much better job than all those higher profile managers have.

The eternal 'Grass is greener' syndrome is alive and well around these parts.

[USABlue]

No Gav. Neither bought players to sell them on.They may have sold them on but that's a different thing. Nor were that judged on their ability to sell on. They stood or fell on their results in games.

This changed when Kean came in and continues now.

Some people struggling to make the distinction. Pity because it is really important.

Really? We know this how, because it was never admitted? I remember some saying Sam signed players based on the size of the brown bag.

Funny thing here, when the big offers came in players were sold. None were knocked back when a good fee was reached. However now we are signing players just for sell on value we are knocking back buyers. Odd.

[thenodrog]

No Gav. Neither bought players to sell them on.They may have sold them on but that's a different thing. Nor were that judged on their ability to sell on. They stood or fell on their results in games.

This changed when Kean came in and continues now.

Some people struggling to make the distinction. Pity because it is really important.

C'mon 47er no manager writes the cheques out. That is done by the Directors acting on the managers advice but always with the investment and development of their 'asset' foremost in their actions.

[47er]

No argument there Theno. Its about what a manager's primary role is and how he is judged by the owners.

[Stuart]

The eternal 'Grass is greener' syndrome is alive and well around these parts.

You say that as though we are the only club or fans to think that way. If everyone backed the manager, no-one would ever be sacked.

Every other club who sacks their manager seems to draw a sorry 'yeah, I could see that coming' yada yada. Yet at Rovers they need more time. Why didn't we stick with Berg for the same length of time? Or Ince for that matter? Did either of them get the chance to build a squad from scratch? Or were they judged on what they did with what they are given?

Bowyer has had more time and patience than the vast majority of football managers, and I bet plenty worthy of the title must look over enviously. Unlimited time with a free hand is the holy grail for a football manager.

[JBiz]

No Gav. Neither bought players to sell them on.They may have sold them on but that's a different thing. Nor were that judged on their ability to sell on. They stood or fell on their results in games.

This changed when Kean came in and continues now.

Some people struggling to make the distinction. Pity because it is really important.

What is the alternative to getting cheap players and selling them on at a profit?

Investing in your club, get good staff, buy players to get you promoted and win things. FFP makes this impossible right now so its not a viable option. I'm not taking into account there may be discussion in ways round it, but the solution for us short term is get outgoings less than incomings. It makes a difference finding a few "products" worth £100,000 one day, and £1,000,000 6 months later, if not for the bank balance then at least for your league position. This is even more vital for a club in our position, unable to invest and already haemorrhaging money. We know that this is a result of the club being mismanaged.

For all the tactical debate, motivational, interviews, communication, manager picking "mates", brown envelope brigade etc - one thing thats difficult to knock is the clubs transfer activity since summer 2013. We've moved lots of players out signed by the previous ***** and spent less than we've brought in for the few we got cash for (Olsson, Formica, Rochina, Dann). Some uninspiring signings mind, but that is typical of any football club (Yordi/Grabbi/Ward/Goulon/Berner/Diawara etc?!)... Importantly the ones we paid cash for; Cairney, Conway, Marshall, Evans, Gestede are all arguably worth more than we paid or value for money in terms of performance.

Compare this too summer 2012 - 3.5m for best, 8m for Rhodes, Kazim Kazim on £? loan, Etuhu and Murphy on a combined 3.5m a season.....

If that is something that the manager is to be judged on - so be it. If Mark Hughes hadn't achieved what he had with the buying and selling - for example getting Nelsen, Samba, Bentley etc so cheap - we wouldn't have had any of the success he brought us. We couldn't invest the big fees then, we bought extremely well and made some decent money in league positions and eventual sales. Look at some other prem managers at clubs O'Neill,(C. Davies 10m) Moyes spent a fortune at Everton and never repeated what he did in his first season. Spending properly is a huge part of a successful football club.

Our success in the past 20 years came under a manager, and a structure that got things completely sorted. To add quality whilst decreasing cost is a tough ask for any boardroom, especially for a "rogue" chairman. The club is still broken in many ways, and we all know that its difficult to view our club in this way, as simple machine for development. The scenario is bleak indeed and thats an indicator of of how badly we got screwed over. If SK had all the best players sold, no money to reinvest, replacements all from youth team - we'd have a better opinion of him but he spent millions on a jobs for the boys mentaity whilst our directors facebooked people for scouting tips. Add in SK's "bald" statements about spending, trophies europe" and his oher blatant lies with his poor transfer management = worst manager of BRFC of all time. We will be picking up the pieces of that debacle for a long time yet.

These comments that sparked the debate didn't really stand out to me - if anything it just makes me think that GB is at least honest. I'd be more annoyed if he was talking about us buying players, winning the FA cup, ways to get round FFP (like Derek numerous times for the past 18 months) or still banging on about promotion being anything more than a mathematical miracle.

[Andyblue2]

Unlimited time with a free hand is the holy grail for a football manager.

And such relaxation spreads to the players and we have mediocrity. We all need to live in danger of losing our jobs to perform, GB seemingly does not

[Gav]

No Gav. Neither bought players to sell them on.They may have sold them on but that's a different thing. Nor were that judged on their ability to sell on. They stood or fell on their results in games.

This changed when Kean came in and continues now.

Some people struggling to make the distinction. Pity because it is really important.

I seem to recall John Williams saying that selling a player ever few years was the clubs strategy.

But you're right about managers being judged on results, but the club was a different beast back then.

[47er]

I seem to recall John Williams saying that selling a player ever few years was the clubs strategy.

But you're right about managers being judged on results, but the club was a different beast back then.

"A" player yes.

And Yes it is a different club now----sadly. So why do some think its OK?

What is the alternative to getting cheap players and selling them on at a profit?

KEEPING THEM, NURTURING THEM, CREATING A GOOD SQUAD AND GETTING PROMOTED?

[47er]

Really? We know this how, because it was never admitted? I remember some saying Sam signed players based on the size of the brown bag.

Funny thing here, when the big offers came in players were sold. None were knocked back when a good fee was reached. However now we are signing players just for sell on value we are knocking back buyers. Odd.

Careful with the brown bag stuff, don't say it drunk in a crowded bar.

[Rover_Shaun]

Selling players is the same it's always been. If the price is right. John Williams did say that it was part of the clubs strategy if the occassion arose but it was never hardly mentioned nor lauded as the clubs top priority. Winning games was prority 1 to 100. Big sale profits were nice cherries ever 3 years or so but points won prizes.

Move forward to the now and the number 1 priority is selling players and results are the side dish. Frankly after Gestede who else will make a sizeable profit? Not Rhodes as we paid 5m too much and not Marshall or Cairney as they only turn up once every Preston Guild

[gumboots]

Gumboots, I've seen seasons when we have done well, the next season poorly, and the following season well again - and all with the same manager and without anyone demanding a sacking. Football isn't that predictable that you can have continual progress with blips. We've had excellent managers in the past who have been allowed poor seasons without being hounded continually by a baying mob, so to speak..

What you're missing though is that audiences have changed. Football now is more success driven than ever. When as a teenager we stood on the terraces at ayresome, that was still our team. We knew the players. They turned up for local events, lived near us. We knew the names of big players but most of us hadn't a clue about what went on elsewhere. When I first left home it was almost impossible to get info about the Boro except from my mum who used to serve souness wife every week in the village coffee shop and she didn't talk football. Following a team that wasn't your local team just didn't really happen because it was such hard work.

Fast forward to now. Kids can watch matches from all over the world, follow teams on the internet, make choices. They don't want to follow the local club if it's boring and mediocre because society tells them that success, glittering success, is god, so off they go to support anyone else they fancy. Travel is easier. Heard at the weekend a guy saying he'd taken his son to Paris for the day to watch psg. From London that's easier than getting to some English clubs.

If you want people to watch their local club you have to offer them something worth watching. You may not be able to offer them trophies but there has to be passion and excitement. There have to be goals and there has to be a buzz with some good wins thrown in. If not you've lost before you start.

Under Stan Anderson we at boro were mainly a mid table div 2 club but hick ton fired in the goals fed by mcmordie and downing and willie wig ham kept them out at the other end with rooks in front of him at centre half. It didn't matter that they weren't great. We'd never get to see big players at our club. The worlds not like that now.