Academy & U21s

[roversfan99]

42 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

Really pleased to see Litherland and Powell, in particular, sign extend contracts with the club.  Two lads who have made huge progress this season and hopefully, will be part of the senior squad next season.  It can only be good news that the best of our youngsters are given the time to develop with the club.

 

 

 

 

 

Do you think they are ready for first team Championship football now? And do you think there are a flurry of kids that are ready now as it seems likely that they are going to be pushed through ready or not. You know much more about these players than me but I noticed that Powell couldnt get a game for Altrincham.

And do you agree with Gestede that we should have an objective of 3,000 minutes for graduates that needs to be met?

[chaddyrovers]

19 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Do you think they are ready for first team Championship football now? And do you think there are a flurry of kids that are ready now as it seems likely that they are going to be pushed through ready or not. You know much more about these players than me but I noticed that Powell couldnt get a game for Altrincham.

Probably not but they have talent we want to see coming through hence why Rovers have signed them on 2 years contracts and option. Tyjon and Montgomery will be more part of this squad going forward and we should be developing our own players and bringing through if good enough. 

6 games for Altrincham is what you basing this on? given we know nothing apart he joined them for the final 6 games. 

We need to do much better picking clubs for our young players to join. Garrett 2 loans spells were a disaster for him and us. 

19 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

And do you agree with Gestede that we should have an objective of 3,000 minutes for graduates that needs to be met?

where did you say this? 

in the interview with Elliott Jackson he mentioned about us going back to bringing through more young players into the first team and he mentioned how many minutes they played under JDT which was around 2,000 minutes and trying to get back to those minutes if players are there

[K-Hod]

I like the idea of youth players getting into the first team a lot.

That being said, they should only be going into the first team when they’re good enough and when they’re ready.

Not just because our billionaire owners won’t re invest any of the many millions we’ve received from selling our best players.

[chaddyrovers]

35 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

I like the idea of youth players getting into the first team a lot.

That being said, they should only be going into the first team when they’re good enough and when they’re ready.

Agree, but no one has said just bring through young players for the sake of it. 

Kristi Montgomery has proved he s worthy of first team squad player, how many of us knew that 3 months ago. I didn't

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I don’t get carried away with young players shining initially in their careers. The history of football is full of kids who looked great for a game or two. They’re playing on pure adrenaline. When that wears off ? Remember Adam Henley ?

Edited May 12 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[roversfan99]

Giving a head coach an artbitary target whereby he has to give graduates a certain amount of minutes very much screams bringing youngsters through for the sake of it. 

Even with Montgomery, I am not fully confident that he can be counted on as a Championship level player yet based on a few cameos and a solitary start in which he got sent off, all out of position.

[Leonard Venkhater]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Do you think they are ready for first team Championship football now? And do you think there are a flurry of kids that are ready now as it seems likely that they are going to be pushed through ready or not. You know much more about these players than me but I noticed that Powell couldnt get a game for Altrincham.

And do you agree with Gestede that we should have an objective of 3,000 minutes for graduates that needs to be met?

I know.. Get relegated to the third tier...then the transition would be so much easier. Look at Crewe..

Oh, just fuck off, Gestede. You make me sick!

Edited May 12 by Leonard Venkhater

[chaddyrovers]

Where has Gestede set a target for minutes for academy players @roversfan99?

Montgomery did more than enough in his game time to show what he is about not his first choice position but has the energy for a full back role

[Parsonblue]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Do you think they are ready for first team Championship football now? And do you think there are a flurry of kids that are ready now as it seems likely that they are going to be pushed through ready or not. You know much more about these players than me but I noticed that Powell couldnt get a game for Altrincham.

And do you agree with Gestede that we should have an objective of 3,000 minutes for graduates that needs to be met?

I believe Powell was not signed by the manager at Altrincham, which might explain why he didn't get picked.  Wharton was thrust into the team when many might have thought he wasn't ready but he quickly found his feet.  Similarly, players like Faz, Phil Jones etc were all given opportunities earlier than expected.  Montgomery hasn't looked out of place - even though not playing in his own position.  Players like Litherland and Powell have looked excellent this season.  We won't know if they are good enough until we see what they can do at this level.

[Leonard Venkhater]

8 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

I believe Powell was not signed by the manager at Altrincham, which might explain why he didn't get picked.  Wharton was thrust into the team when many might have thought he wasn't ready but he quickly found his feet.  Similarly, players like Faz, Phil Jones etc were all given opportunities earlier than expected.  Montgomery hasn't looked out of place - even though not playing in his own position.  Players like Litherland and Powell have looked excellent this season.  We won't know if they are good enough until we see what they can do at this level.

You make a fair point.

My concern is if there is an arbitrary target of the amount of first team minutes from the academy...

[roversfan99]

39 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

I believe Powell was not signed by the manager at Altrincham, which might explain why he didn't get picked.  Wharton was thrust into the team when many might have thought he wasn't ready but he quickly found his feet.  Similarly, players like Faz, Phil Jones etc were all given opportunities earlier than expected.  Montgomery hasn't looked out of place - even though not playing in his own position.  Players like Litherland and Powell have looked excellent this season.  We won't know if they are good enough until we see what they can do at this level.

Do you have confidence in any in particular to be up to the standard of playing Championship football as soon as next season? 

And would you feel comfortable if there is an expectation to give them a certain number of minutes next season, especially if its done whilst perhaps signing one or two less more established players?

To me it is undoubtedly another cost cutting exercise that they are trying to glamorise. Montgomery got a few cameos when Brittain was out and Tyjon one token cameo but otherwise none of the others got a sniff last season at a time when Ismael up until the last couple of games regularly talked about planning for next season. But I would be interested to know if there are any in particular that you have reasonable confidence in being ready now.

For example, would you be happy to see us let say Pickering go in the confidence that Powell can step up? Would you happily forego signing a midfielder as you deem Montgomery ready? Would you avoid signing a centre back in favour of having Litherland as a first team centre back? Or any others. 

[chaddyrovers]

Tyjon is highly regarded and shouldn't we bring him through? 

@roversfan99do you think Montgomery is ready to be part of our first team squad next season? 

[chaddyrovers]

Gestede's actual comments about this supposedly target minutes that @roversfan99 has said. 

"What we have seen in the last year, the minutes played by our Academy players has dropped drastically. We used to be over 2,000 minutes for Under-23 Academy players. Last 12 months, 142 minutes.

"That affects the value of the asset and we want to go back to that model. That was part of the discussions with Valerien. They have to be part of your squad planning.

So he set no target of minutes for youth players just that Rovers want to go back bringing through young players ready. Do you accept @roversfan99 you were wrong to suggest that they was "arbitrary target" for minutes for our young players and of 3,000 minutes?

[roversfan99]

54 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Tyjon is highly regarded and shouldn't we bring him through? 

@roversfan99do you think Montgomery is ready to be part of our first team squad next season? 

I dont know. No one can possibly know based on a few small cameos and one start where he got sent off and thats my point. I was trying to ask Parson if he felt confident in any/a number of the young lads being ready immediately to play because he knows more than me about them individually (and more than you) and you seem really keen to hijack it.

On the Gestede stuff, you are being pedantic. He is keen to revert back to giving graduates loads of minutes. "They have to be part of your squad planning." Maybe the current crop arent ready to play that level of gametime as a group. It doesnt help when the 2 stand out youngsters who accumulated a large number of those minutes have since been sold, theres no context to what he is saying. It shouldnt be a set objective, and they dont seem arsed on the quality of those graduates, IMO its all a cost cutting, standard lowering situation being dressed up. Pad the squad out with kids because you wont get the budget to provide the squad depth you need to sustain yourselves over a season and make it seem like a positive.

You dont have to justify every single thing that the club does, to the point where you are repeatedly butting into conversations.

Edited May 12 by roversfan99

[Parsonblue]

7 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Do you have confidence in any in particular to be up to the standard of playing Championship football as soon as next season? 

And would you feel comfortable if there is an expectation to give them a certain number of minutes next season, especially if its done whilst perhaps signing one or two less more established players?

To me it is undoubtedly another cost cutting exercise that they are trying to glamorise. Montgomery got a few cameos when Brittain was out and Tyjon one token cameo but otherwise none of the others got a sniff last season at a time when Ismael up until the last couple of games regularly talked about planning for next season. But I would be interested to know if there are any in particular that you have reasonable confidence in being ready now.

For example, would you be happy to see us let say Pickering go in the confidence that Powell can step up? Would you happily forego signing a midfielder as you deem Montgomery ready? Would you avoid signing a centre back in favour of having Litherland as a first team centre back? Or any others. 

During the sixty-odd years I've supported the club we have always blooded youngsters and given them opportunities at first team level - it's nothing new.  It's also nothing new for us to sell our better youngsters  - Pickering, England, Byrom, Newton in the sixties - Bradshaw, Hird, Bailey in the seventies - Barker in the eighties.  

These days, when managers want to rotate players on a regular basis you have to have a batch of youngsters who can come into the first team.  I believe that the likes of Litherland, Duru, Powell and Montgomery show enough promise at this stage in their careers to be given the chance.

At the end of the day if the club isn't prepared to put it's trust in the players the Academy produces then what's the point in spending £3m a year on a Cat 1 Academy?

[Hullrover]

Presumably the better academy players will get a good pre season with the first team squad and a few will be around and about the bench for the first few games whilst loans are tied up.

Is it better to have our own players as spares rather than premier league loans, many of who are despised by the fans because we have to play them regularly. We rarely get young loans who play a really significant part (Elliot & Van Hecke - loved, Morton - disliked even though he played a lot,a  few others make a number of apps without ever actually being great) and similarly not many of ours go out to other clubs and are loved by their fans (Carter/Scott W maybe, possibly works with defenders who have a bit of physicality). In fact hardly any of the loans we have sent out over the last few years have returned and done anything for us or anyone else. It iis almost as if a loan out is the kiss of death.

[Mattyblue]

The Cat 1 Academy is no guarantee of anything. You ‘blood youngsters’ if they are good enough for the level you are playing at, if they aren’t, you don’t, simple as that - you instead either send them on loan to a lower level or release them.

Harry Leonard is a prime example, his development has stalled (will be 22 a month into next season) due to him having to hang around the periphery of the squad (as we’ve had very few striker options) instead of getting games in League 1.

 

Edited May 13 by Mattyblue

[roversfan99]

Exactly. This desperation to get back to them playing loads of minutes is just a cost cutting exercise.

[K-Hod]

2 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

 

At the end of the day if the club isn't prepared to put it's trust in the players the Academy produces then what's the point in spending £3m a year on a Cat 1 Academy?

But then, I guess this question could be flipped on its head too.

What's the point of a professional football club, if promotion isn't even a short-term goal?

[chaddyrovers]

10 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I dont know. No one can possibly know based on a few small cameos and one start where he got sent off and thats my point. I was trying to ask Parson if he felt confident in any/a number of the young lads being ready immediately to play because he knows more than me about them individually (and more than you) and you seem really keen to hijack it.

I have in the past attending plenty of under 21's game and I like seeing what talent we are producing there. I watched Travis there and I thought he is one to keep a deffo on

10 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

On the Gestede stuff, you are being pedantic. He is keen to revert back to giving graduates loads of minutes. "They have to be part of your squad planning." Maybe the current crop arent ready to play that level of gametime as a group. It doesnt help when the 2 stand out youngsters who accumulated a large number of those minutes have since been sold, theres no context to what he is saying. It shouldnt be a set objective, and they dont seem arsed on the quality of those graduates, IMO its all a cost cutting, standard lowering situation being dressed up. Pad the squad out with kids because you wont get the budget to provide the squad depth you need to sustain yourselves over a season and make it seem like a positive.

You misinterpreted what he said. Never set any such target as you said so you were wrong but instead of admitting it you digging a big hole. We are talking a 3 young players in 25 man squad. Nothing massive. Duru, Montgomery and Tyjon in the squad. Yes I follow what GB and JDT did with having 5/6 quality young players training with first team. What is wrong with that approach? Nothing, we have category 1 academy so we should bringing our good young players 

10 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

You dont have to justify every single thing that the club does,

I have said bringing through our players from Academy is something we should. Said it 3 years ago to you.

10 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

to the point where you are repeatedly butting into conversations.

It's an open fourm

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Exactly. This desperation to get back to them playing loads of minutes is just a cost cutting exercise.

Cost cutting? The wage budget is roughly the same. So no cost cutting has happened. We have cat 1 academy so we should be producing own our players like we done in the past. 

[47er]

5 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

We have cat 1 academy so we should be producing own our players like we done in the past. 

The difference now is that we produce them with the intent of selling them but not using the fees to replace them.

That's if we get any fee at all

[MarkBRFC]

15 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Kristi Montgomery has proved he s worthy of first team squad player, how many of us knew that 3 months ago. I didn't

He's played 136 minutes of championship football. 

Not sure that says he is a "worthy" first team squad member at the minute.

Edited May 13 by MarkBRFC

[Hasta]

13 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

So he set no target of minutes for youth players just that Rovers want to go back bringing through young players ready. Do you accept @roversfan99 you were wrong to suggest that they was "arbitrary target" for minutes for our young players and of 3,000 minutes?

Gestede actually said:-

"The plan for our squad is to give as much (acadamy minutes) as we can. The year before was 2000 minutes for our academy players, almost 3000 minutes the year before, so now we want to go back to those numbers."

That, as @roversfan99 says,  implies that we do have an objective of getting back to 3000 minutes.

Edited May 13 by Hasta

[Bronzed A Donis]

Blooding youngsters is great, IF they can step up even selling our most promising is a reality for us (although flogging as quick as we can to pay the bills is a terrible model)

How can anyone be comfortable with this:

"That affects the value of the asset and we want to go back to that model. That was part of the discussions with Valerien. They have to be part of your squad planning"

Whether you've supported Rovers for 60 years or 60 minutes we shouldn't be happy at prioritising becoming a B team or Lancashire Crewe at the expensive of success which clearly Eustace refused to do, while we sat 5th....

It's about flogging off the silver so Venkys can wean off , not to reinvest and build a team, Bristol City have spent 18 million last 2 years based on the Scott money. That's a model and used to be our model pre 2010, not what we are doing now.

[roversfan99]

Exactly, and Gestede's comments totally lacked any context.

They make out as if its a lapse in attitude and a bit of a dig at Eustace. But the reason for the change is down to players. The reason the minutes were so high in the 2 seasons prior to the one just gone were because we had first team ready talents in Adam Wharton and to a lesser extent Ash Phillips. We also had budget cuts the season before last so the likes of Leonard (who was injured for the majority of the season just gone anyway) and Garrett were given more minutes than they were ready for. 

Now those first team ready players have been sold, we naturally dont have that same level of talent. We cant just hand out minutes to meet an arbitary objective. It is cost cutting because if we glamourise this aim, then to get them those minutes, we will need a player or two less in the transfer market. So yes, cost cutting.