[Archived] Rovers fans, fickle, fallible, or knowledgeable and discerning and the Loon factor?

[Proudtobeblue&white]

A question asked of me on the Ipswich thread debated whether Rovers actually had a fan base willing, in the right circumstances, to come back and support the club. Got me thinking about our lovely club pre-loon.

This season we we number 17 in the Championship, with a home average of 14, 912. I think a lot who went would agree that actual bums on seats was undoubtedly lower, but there's the figure.

In the halcyon days of the early football league records show that we got attendances of between 5 & 10,,000 up to the turn of the century (19th) - of course smaller ground etc

Attendances grew pre-Great War, culminating in an average gate of 21,322 in the 1913-14 season.

In 1920/21 we averaged 26,933, and thereafter fluctuated whilst in Div 1, until relegation in 1936 between 13,000 & 20,000.

Post 2nd WW, the 1946/7 season saw us back in the 1st Div, and an average, obviously boosted by the lack of professional football, to 26,367. the following season we were relegated with an average of 27,883!

Through the the 50's until promotion in 1958 attendances were buoyant in the old Div 2 between 22-27,000.

Back in the top fight and 58/9 was our best ever average as far as I can see, when we finished mid-table with a home average of 30,497. There seems to have been a definite effect following the 60's cup final ticket scandal, when for two seasons we averaged about 16,000.

When relegation occurred in 66, only 7,000 turned up for the final game v Spurs, and an average gate of 13,500 was probably understandable.

Out in the wilderness attendances plummeted and when relegation to Div 3,happened 73/4 saw an average of 7,432.

We averaged 10,300 in the 79-80 promotion year. Early 80's was a slog - 7-9,000, 85/6, 5,826! It was only until the early 90's, when of course in Jan 91, JW joined the board.

The feel good factor took off, and the modern era of BR started. Promotion year averaged 13,245, first year in the PL, 16,246.

93/4: 17,721

4/5: 25,277, for obvious reasons

5/6: 27,714

6/7: 24,947

7/8: 25,253

8/9: 25,761

99/00 saw relegation, gates averaged, 19,166 and promotion, 20,740.

Gates remained fairly buoyant between 21/25,000 roughly, 10/11: 24,999, last PL season 11/12

, 22,551.

So, the Dark period had begun:

12/13: 14,998

13/14: 15,034

I haven't yet looked at the population of the town/catchment area, but it seems that when there are good times, or feel good times, the people will turn out. Lean spells lead to apathy......it seems to me that Rovers natural feel good average attendance is 20,000-25,000.

Were our owners to put that back in I believe the fans would return, but otherwise they have removed 5-6,000 fans in four years flat, where it will end, who knows?

[AJW]

A question asked of me on the Ipswich thread debated whether Rovers actually had a fan base willing, in the right circumstances, to come back and support the club. Got me thinking about our lovely club pre-loon.

This season we we number 17 in the Championship, with a home average of 14, 912. I think a lot who went would agree that actual bums on seats was undoubtedly lower, but there's the figure.

In the halcyon days of the early football league records show that we got attendances of between 5 & 10,,000 up to the turn of the century (19th) - of course smaller ground etc

Attendances grew pre-Great War, culminating in an average gate of 21,322 in the 1913-14 season.

In 1920/21 we averaged 26,933, and thereafter fluctuated whilst in Div 1, until relegation in 1936 between 13,000 & 20,000.

Post 2nd WW, the 1946/7 season saw us back in the 1st Div, and an average, obviously boosted by the lack of professional football, to 26,367. the following season we were relegated with an average of 27,883!

Through the the 50's until promotion in 1958 attendances were buoyant in the old Div 2 between 22-27,000.

Back in the top fight and 58/9 was our best ever average as far as I can see, when we finished mid-table with a home average of 30,497. There seems to have been a definite effect following the 60's cup final ticket scandal, when for two seasons we averaged about 16,000.

When relegation occurred in 66, only 7,000 turned up for the final game v Spurs, and an average gate of 13,500 was probably understandable.

Out in the wilderness attendances plummeted and when relegation to Div 3,happened 73/4 saw an average of 7,432.

We averaged 10,300 in the 79-80 promotion year. Early 80's was a slog - 7-9,000, 85/6, 5,826! It was only until the early 90's, when of course in Jan 91, JW joined the board.

The feel good factor took off, and the modern era of BR started. Promotion year averaged 13,245, first year in the PL, 16,246.

93/4: 17,721

4/5: 25,277, for obvious reasons

5/6: 27,714

6/7: 24,947

7/8: 25,253

8/9: 25,761

99/00 saw relegation, gates averaged, 19,166 and promotion, 20,740.

Gates remained fairly buoyant between 21/25,000 roughly, 10/11: 24,999, last PL season 11/12

, 22,551.

So, the Dark period had begun:

12/13: 14,998

13/14: 15,034

I haven't yet looked at the population of the town/catchment area, but it seems that when there are good times, or feel good times, the people will turn out. Lean spells lead to apathy......it seems to me that Rovers natural feel good average attendance is 20,000-25,000.

Were our owners to put that back in I believe the fans would return, but otherwise they have removed 5-6,000 fans in four years flat, where it will end, who knows?

i have heard this referred to before ...the cup final ticket fiasco but what exactly happened ? even at 40 i'm too young to know

[Rover_Shaun]

My Great Grandad, Grandad and his brother queued up and got tickets.

Maybe some where miffed they slept in?

[Parsonblue]

My Great Grandad, Grandad and his brother queued up and got tickets.

Maybe some where miffed they slept in?

Many season ticket holders missed out on tickets whilst folk who'd never been to a game got them. Many tickets made there way to the black market instead of the fans. It's the reason why thousands walked away and never returned. The ticket distribution at the time actually makes the present set up look first class in terms of organisation!

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

By all accounts well loved club 'legends' were selling them black market style.

My Grandad blew his top!

As for the attendances we are a Town with only 105,000 inhabitants,a small catchment area and surround by arguably some of the biggest clubs in Europe.

It's an achievement to get the gates we do.

[Rover_Shaun]

I am sure there's only Gordon who says Blackburn can't support a top club

[thenodrog]

What is your definition of a 'top club'. All the top clubs in the Prem get 2 or 3 (or in MU's case even more) times more than our measly/modest (delete as applicable) 20,000 Prem average.

[Rover_Shaun]

You have speny the majority of your waking life recently claiming that the people of blackburn can neither support or deserve a premier league club. your whole lancs fc thing is based on it

[Stuart]

I haven't yet looked at the population of the town/catchment area, but it seems that when there are good times, or feel good times, the people will turn out. Lean spells lead to apathy......it seems to me that Rovers natural feel good average attendance is 20,000-25,000.

Were our owners to put that back in I believe the fans would return, but otherwise they have removed 5-6,000 fans in four years flat, where it will end, who knows?

This is what I've been saying for a while. We need a feelgood factor. Something to believe in and get behind. Some charisma, a bit of passion.

It needs a marquee signing or a talismanic manager.

FFP has put paid to the former - unless we get some kind of spectacular freebie and find some way of paying them off the books - to that's out.

The latter needs to happen although the chances are that the ship has sailed because we've dithered too long and continue to reward failure.

Some don't really care about crowds though and would rather struggle on as we are - even if it means 4000 hardcore only.

[McClarky]

Most of the money comes from tv nowadays so attendences are less of a factor. Once you're in the PL and established it's not that hard to stay there if the club is managed well. Hence the frustration of being a Rovers fan when we chucked our place away at the time when Tv money was about to go through the roof.

[Gav]

Look no further than the Liverpool game to see if the support is still out their.

Get rid of Venkys, put some pride back in the club and the fans will return.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Look no further than the Liverpool game to see if the support is still out their.

Get rid of Venkys, put some pride back in the club and the fans will return.

Looking at this realistically :

1. Getting rid of Venky's wouldn't change the division we are in, or the players at our disposal.

2. You would need to replace Venky's with somebody with very deep pockets - if only to continue to support our losses.

Bottom line - and possibly not palatable to some - the Venky's currently represent our best chance of limited success - which is probably the best way to get fans through the gate (after all, the extra fans that turned up to the Liverpool game only turned out because of the remote chance of success). Without their financial support - we would probably end up selling most of our better players - and more than likely getting relegated. For all the rhetoric - Venky's or not - that wouldn't increase the gate.

I know some would say it is a small price to pay to get rid of our current owners - personally I would prefer them to stay rather than the consequences which are probably at best relegation and at worse administration and relegation. Of course - if you can find another super fan like Jack Walker - but we have already had two of them in our history, so not holding out immediate hope.

[ABBEY]

how long would you want them here for?

the present debt ?

another 100m debt?

another 10000000m debt ?

or just rack the debt up until liquidation is the only option?

[EgyptianPete]

how long would you want them here for?

the present debt ?

another 100m debt?

another 10000000m debt ?

or just rack the debt up until liquidation is the only option?

Well at least they would be skint as well

[Athlete]

Well at least they would be skint as well

I doubt that much a pity

Looking at this realistically :

1. Getting rid of Venky's wouldn't change the division we are in, or the players at our disposal.

2. You would need to replace Venky's with somebody with very deep pockets - if only to continue to support our losses.

Bottom line - and possibly not palatable to some - the Venky's currently represent our best chance of limited success - which is probably the best way to get fans through the gate (after all, the extra fans that turned up to the Liverpool game only turned out because of the remote chance of success). Without their financial support -

They are financing us with loans and more debts.. Something sooner or later has to give

[thenodrog]

You have speny the majority of your waking life recently claiming that the people of blackburn can neither support or deserve a premier league club. your whole lancs fc thing is based on it

No Lancashire club can. And thats the issue.

[Rover_Shaun]

No Lancashire club can. And thats the issue.

we did for 2 decades and thats the only point

[thenodrog]

Wrong. You are showing unbelievable ignorance. That was Jack Walker who did that and Jack Walker alone. Effectively the Blackburn public funded very little and just went along for the ride.

Since then we've had Johnny Bosmans Freedom of Contract we've now got FFP restricting a recurrence of the Walker years. Huge changes which screw small clubs over. How come you can't grasp the massively changed conditions?

[West Yorks Rover]

Wrong. You are showing unbelievable ignorance. That was Jack Walker who did that and Jack Walker alone. Effectively the Blackburn public funded very little and just went along for the ride.

Since then we've had Johnny Bosmans Freedom of Contract we've now got FFP restricting a recurrence of the Walker years. Huge changes which screw small clubs over. How come you can't grasp the massively changed conditions?

Swansea seem to manage ok with their 20k capacity stadium, and I believe their ST's aren't too expensive either, possibly because

they are partly owned by the fans, who seem very happy with the way the club is being run.

They don't even own their own ground either, the council do.

[Rover_Shaun]

Wrong. You are showing unbelievable ignorance. That was Jack Walker who did that and Jack Walker alone. Effectively the Blackburn public funded very little and just went along for the ride.

Since then we've had Johnny Bosmans Freedom of Contract we've now got FFP restricting a recurrence of the Walker years. Huge changes which screw small clubs over. How come you can't grasp the massively changed conditions?

All clubs fans fund very little as nearly all the clubs are funded by Sky. If we were promoted, and had owners with a brain who gave a flying ffk, then we'd carry on where we left off. It would be, like most clubs, a balancing act but once we got those first 2 seasons under our belt there is no reason why we couldn't sustain a mid to lower mid table existence.

Ignorance is thinking any Prem club can entirely fund themselves without TV money, either Prem or Champ League.

[Athlete]

No Lancashire club can. And thats the issue.

Rubbish Rovers did and can do again especially with the huge sky deal it's now easier

[Mike E]

If all TV deals were cancelled now, only non-league clubs would be sustainable. It's all TV driven.

[Gav]

Wrong. You are showing unbelievable ignorance. That was Jack Walker who did that and Jack Walker alone. Effectively the Blackburn public funded very little and just went along for the ride.

Since then we've had Johnny Bosmans Freedom of Contract we've now got FFP restricting a recurrence of the Walker years. Huge changes which screw small clubs over. How come you can't grasp the massively changed conditions?

Bunkum!

We've been doing it for 20yrs, open your eyes man! Good management, Sky TV money, savy player sales and 20k gates all go towards Blackburn being able to sustain a top flight premiership team.

[Pedro]

Jack Walker was the catalyst for change and promotion. Savvy buys such as Le Saux, Sherwood, Shearer, Berg, Hendry, Sutton, Gallacher all helped bring success and their sales covered their expenditure. Those buys covered the cost of the ride! Only when we started to let Hodgson and Kidd blow millions on crud did things go awry...but regardless after then employing a better manager, promotion, increased TV money and selling on our excellent youth players got things on the straight and narrow again.

How can you pretend that this did not happen and we showed that a town team can be self-sufficient Gordon? Even right up towards the end of the Williams era, we had valuable players who could have been sold to pay off anything owed (e.g. Samba, N'Zonzi, Jones).

Now, if your arguement was a town team cannot be self-sufficient with poor management, poor player recruitment and idiotic ownership then I'd have your back entirely.

[thenodrog]

.

Swansea seem to manage ok with their 20k capacity stadium, and I believe their ST's aren't too expensive either, possibly because

they are partly owned by the fans, who seem very happy with the way the club is being run.

They don't even own their own ground either, the council do.

So thats just Swansea then? Any other good examples? For every Swansea there are 10/20 basket cases.

btw Are Swansea having to fund 80m (or whatever it is) of debt too?

All clubs fans fund very little as nearly all the clubs are funded by Sky. If we were promoted, and had owners with a brain who gave a flying ffk, then we'd carry on where we left off. It would be, like most clubs, a balancing act but once we got those first 2 seasons under our belt there is no reason why we couldn't sustain a mid to lower mid table existence.

Ignorance is thinking any Prem club can entirely fund themselves without TV money, either Prem or Champ League.

Wonderful. I don't think. Just big club cannon fodder for evermore.

Bunkum!

We've been doing it for 20yrs, open your eyes man! Good management, Sky TV money, savy player sales and 20k gates all go towards Blackburn being able to sustain a top flight premiership team.

top flight Prem team eh? Shaun thinks is bottom to mid at best.

Besides we've not been doing anything for 20 years on our own. The Walkers were our safety net time and again. Jack threw money at Hodgson and Kidd, they topped up gate receipts every season to the tune of 3m pa until 2007 I think. They stumped up for Andy Cole to avoid relegation.

But the biggest irony of all is that for all the time he was here you were Big Sam's loudest and most vociferous critic! You were absolutely delighted when the venkmob replaced him with Steve Kean! I don't recall you ever admitting that you were way WRONG and Now you have the temerity to think that anyone will take notice of your opinions.