Mowbray: Stay or go?

[speeeeeeedie]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

I'm leaning towards go and the main reason is really nothing to do with Mowbray. I just don't trust the Indians, Waggott or Cheston to bring in anybody who could take us any further than Mowbray has us. I wouldn't trust them to make a jelly. Another huge concern is Mowbray having to virtually rebuild the squad. Given his overall record (not just at Rovers) I have major doubts about his ability to do this.

 

36 minutes ago, blueboy3333 said:

Your logic indicates you want him to stay not go. 

That's how I read it too. I agree with the premise as well. I'd keep Mowbray. It's almost universal that a squad overhaul is needed but who knows how much say he has on transfers. He is a good man manager. Players like him which goes a long way. I said a few months ago that he should be looking to appoint a new coach to work on game shape and tactics. I still think this. Although I doubt that he will get rid of Venus. He's his pal and suffered a tragedy recently.

[Don Said]

I’d say go but only if we had a replacement ala Allardyce/Jokanovic/Hughes lined up. 

4 points out of 30 is a massive worry and a start like the last few months would make us nailed on to go down. He needs to ensure we pick points up in these last 7 games. Carrying on the rot would fully justify his removal.

That said, either way I’m adament he’ll be here first game of next season. It’s a make or break summer for him in which he has to get recruitment spot on, wouldn’t be confident of him doing that given his track record but hopefully he knows how critical the situation is and has learnt exactly what he needs to do.

He’s arguably met this seasons objective thanks to the first half of the season but he needs to address a number of things (recruitment, addressing the defensive frailties, creating a consistent identity) in the first half of next season in order to kick us on and retain the job. 

He isn’t the perfect man to do it & i’d rather cherry pick somebody else to do the job but he isn’t a total write off just yet.

Edited March 31, 2019 by Don Said

[roversfan99]

Just now, Stuart said:

The next 7 games sees us in an odd position.

Nothing to play for so a ready excuse for not performing. Currently on a losing streak with the so called first team starters. Things look all too comfortable and pally. When you are winning it can look like a close knit group, when you are losing regularly it becomes a problem because players are less likely to be ruthless and will try to stick it out “together”. Mowbray’s approach seems to be to leave the players to it. He should be objective and be prepared to make tough decisions. Sticking with Dack when Rothwell is in form or bringing in Samuel when Nuttall was in form just continue the problem.

The only way Mowbray can come out of this end of season phase well is to start giving starts to some of the youngsters. Would be great to see Magloire given a chance alongside Lenihan. Rothwell given a free role in midfield. With some of the older guard on the bench. If we lose then we’ve learned something. If we lose with our League One players then we’ve not even learned anything.

Totally agree with the point you are making but not your specific examples. Dack is our best player and who we should be building around, there is no reason why we should play only one or the other, we should try and fit Dack and Rothwell in together. I also felt that Magloire looked well away in terms of being ready for the first team.

The last 7 games have to be with a view to next season. No Conway, Bennett, Smallwood or Williams, whats the point, they are tired and tested. In goal, Raya may aswell carry on because Leutweiler wont be here next season. Nyambe and Bell may aswell continue at full back, although I don't rate the latter at all defensively. Lenihan has to start, I would personally play Mulgrew simply because I dont see any alternatives in terms of being anywhere near ready at the moment.

In midfield, Travis is the first name in there now. I would love to see Rodwell given a run in there, I think he has more than enough quality AS A MIDFIELDER to warrant a new deal. I would also like to see Davenport get at least 2 or 3 starts. They should be the 3 at the forefront of Mowbrays mind. Wide is an area we have struggled to get any excitement or supply from. Get Rothwell on the left, Chapman on the right, them 2 with Dack in between will be far more exciting and enterprising. As an alternative, if Armstrong plays, he has to be on the right where it simplifies his game. Graham will be key next season, I dont see a rush to not play him even though he is a veteran, and I dont think either Brereton or Nuttall are near him, but obviously give them minutes as and when.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Keep for now.

3 reasons:

1) Perspective. The last two months have been horrible, but the 18 months before that were good: a promotion season and then on the brink of the playoffs at the end of Jan. Personally I think the main reason behind the slump is that we’ve been playing teams a second time and they have figured out Dack, Mulgrew and whichever hapless LB plays. Should he have seen this coming and headed it off, yes, but then the reason for sacking becomes we aren’t in the top 6 when we coulda/shoulda been. Which sounds a bit entitled.

2) Doing better than Wigan/Rotherham. It’s a big jump up, and we have jumped it better. Yes we were only down a year but so were Wigan.

3) Kean, Berg, Appleton, Bowyer, Lambert, Coyle, Mowbray. I’d take him from that list every time and have no confidence at all the next name on the list will be any better.

[roversfan99]

Just now, Exiled in Toronto said:

Keep for now.

3 reasons:

1) Perspective. The last two months have been horrible, but the 18 months before that were good: a promotion season and then on the brink of the playoffs at the end of Jan. Personally I think the main reason behind the slump is that we’ve been playing teams a second time and they have figured out Dack, Mulgrew and whichever hapless LB plays. Should he have seen this coming and headed it off, yes, but then the reason for sacking becomes we aren’t in the top 6 when we coulda/shoulda been. Which sounds a bit entitled.

2) Doing better than Wigan/Rotherham. It’s a big jump up, and we have jumped it better. Yes we were only down a year but so were Wigan.

3) Kean, Berg, Appleton, Bowyer, Lambert, Coyle, Mowbray. I’d take him from that list every time and have no confidence at all the next name on the list will be any better.

1) The reason for sacking is not because we arent in the top 6 at all, suggesting that shows a level of ignorance IMO. It is a lack of belief that the manager is capable of turning this side into a top 6 challenged as he has mentioned. The main reasons for that are :

-prolonged series of poor results far exceeding the duration of a blip in form

-continued reluctance to experiment/continued overloyalty to inadequate players and sticking to a formula that isnt working

-continued inability to set up a defence mirroring similar troubles at previous clubs. Conceded 3 less with 7 games to go than we did under a season with Coyle as manager for most of the season. 

-disastrous previous summer transfer window with considerable funds (no starters yesterday not at the club last year) displaying zero logic in trusting him with another summer window.

2) Neither side, especially Rotherham is a worthwhile barometer of success. Our wage budget as discussed by Waggott would rank higher in the league than where we are, and we spent 8 figures in terms of transfer fees in the summer. Both them 2 sides have been in and out of League 1 recently. If you want to have unrealistically low standards then thats your call.

3) What kind of logic is that? If part of Mowbrays sales pitch to stay in a job that he is not as bad as Kean and Coyle then its a pretty flimsy one.

[Rogerb]

Think back to October 2017 and the defeat at Oldham. TM did turn it round granted in a lower league though. So there is more recent evidence than Coventry to say it's not beyond him

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, Rogerb said:

Think back to October 2017 and the defeat at Oldham. TM did turn it round granted in a lower league though. So there is more recent evidence than Coventry to say it's not beyond him

We were hardly on a terrible run when we lost at Oldham, in fact we were on a good run before that game and even after the defeat we were only a couple points of the top 6.

[Stuart]

5 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

3) Kean, Berg, Appleton, Bowyer, Lambert, Coyle, Mowbray. I’d take him from that list every time and have no confidence at all the next name on the list will be any better.

Nothing in your post says that Mowbray hasn’t peaked and only looks back at history. Even half your manager list points back at the dark days of an inept boardroom and agent-driven malevolence.

Comparing any manager in the Championship with anyone from that pre-TM list would put them out on top. If we still don’t have the right people in place to make appropriate managerial appointments then even with Mowbray we are in the same boat. He isn’t up to the task. We have come full circle in accepting mediocrity out of fear - the exact same argument that kept Bowyer in charge. A reasonable L1 standard manager in the hot seat at a Championship club.

Bowyer steadied the ship; Lambert and his team were the right appointment and immediately raised the standards but were undermined; Coyle was a complete balls-up from start to finish, with an FD going on holiday and in my view an agent turning heads with Coyle’s “success on the cheap” model but without the necessary foundations in place. But even then - in June 2016 there were people defending the Coyle appointment: “he got Burnley promoted FFS”; “he needs at least x many games before we can judge FFS”; “just give him a chance FFS”. Fans can be their own worst enemies when it comes to blindly supporting managers.

This is now a big test not just for Mowbray but also for Waggott. Is he just another puppet in a long line of them or does he have any influence at all? If Mowbray walked away tomorrow, citing his own honour, then Waggott would have to make a credible appointment. Why should that be any different if Rovers were to take a decision that a change was necessary? If anything we should be able to plan better. It’s all too pally right through the whole set-up. All taking Venkys coin, and not taking any responsibility.

[Bigdoggsteel]

I'm on the fence. Head says go, heart says no. 

He has been great for the club and let's just give him the benefit of the doubt and say his biggest mistake was showing too much loyalty to the same players. 

I see Nixon tweeted Mowbray wants 5 new players early in the window. If and it's a big if, they do this in the correct time frame, not bolloxing around and giving him money near the end, then he could be our best option as realistically I definitely can't see them backing/trusting a new manager more than they would Mowbray. 

If they won't back him in the way he requests, he should do the honourable thing and show them up for what they are, respect the fans over the owners and walk away. 

Gonna be an intersting summer and I feel we will know early on what the reality is. 

Just to add, I think it's pointless saying you want him sacked all summer. 99% he is staying, so it's probably more constructive to discuss other things, even though it's safe to say the majority of us have grave concerns. 

I would love to be proved wrong on my gut feeling. 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[rigger]

1 hour ago, blueboy3333 said:

You've lost me. Your only objection to Mowbray being the manager is if he doesn't pick a decent midfielder every week, and therefore doesn't manage to sign him permanently?

Let me try to make this simple. If TM gets Reed to sign for us, then he will have persuaded Reed that he has a viable plan for the future which involves Reed playing. Ergo in my opinion if Reed goes so should TM.

[JHRover]

Just now, Rogerb said:

Think back to October 2017 and the defeat at Oldham. TM did turn it round granted in a lower league though. So there is more recent evidence than Coventry to say it's not beyond him

Its a lot easier to 'turn it round' when you've the best and most expensive squad in the entire division at your disposal. Without wanting to diminish the success and achievement of winning promotion last season when you're so well equipped and experienced a rise up that division after Oldham was essential and almost a formality. We've seen it many times where a rich club with a good squad naturally rises to the top of the league below. West Brom are doing it this season - a very strong squad but without much managerial experience yet keep on winning games. 

It isn't easy to turn it around when a losing habit and mentality creeps in. Mowbray couldn't stop it at WBA in the Premier League and they were relegated - apparently because he refused or was unable to change his approach - and he couldn't stop the rot at Middlesbrough or Coventry either.

[Stuart]

Just now, Rogerb said:

Think back to October 2017 and the defeat at Oldham. TM did turn it round granted in a lower league though. So there is more recent evidence than Coventry to say it's not beyond him

You’ve just put up your own counter-argument. He managed a Championship team playing in League One. As the accounts illustrate.

The Championship isn’t a place for Bowyers and Mowbrays. Successful managers at this level are one-eyed, ambitious, ruthless bastards with trusted coaches who know what is expected of them and their players.

[Mr. E]

If he can produce a guarantee tomorrow that there will be a VERY meaty lists of players exiting the day the transfer windows open in the summer, with a very specific list of likely potential replacements, sure, give it another go.

But as things stand the most he is able or willing to do is 1-2 changes at most. And undoubtedly we will have to listen to him branding this season a "success." He is happy with 18th- 19th.

So unless there is a dramatic change in his philosophy soon, he must go. Voted to leave.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Husky]

If he goes, there will be trouble and if he stays it will be double.

[blueboy3333]

1 hour ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

Keep for now.

3 reasons:

1) Perspective. The last two months have been horrible, but the 18 months before that were good: a promotion season and then on the brink of the playoffs at the end of Jan. Personally I think the main reason behind the slump is that we’ve been playing teams a second time and they have figured out Dack, Mulgrew and whichever hapless LB plays. Should he have seen this coming and headed it off, yes, but then the reason for sacking becomes we aren’t in the top 6 when we coulda/shoulda been. Which sounds a bit entitled.

2) Doing better than Wigan/Rotherham. It’s a big jump up, and we have jumped it better. Yes we were only down a year but so were Wigan.

3) Kean, Berg, Appleton, Bowyer, Lambert, Coyle, Mowbray. I’d take him from that list every time and have no confidence at all the next name on the list will be any better.

Hardly a ringing endorsement. 

And nobody has said we should be in the top 6. Classic straw man. 

[Rogerb]

22 minutes ago, Stuart said:

 

The Championship isn’t a place for Bowyers and Mowbrays. Successful managers at this level are one-eyed, ambitious, ruthless bastards with trusted coaches who know what is expected of them and their players.

Can you ever see one of these work with Venky 's?

[Stuart]

Just now, Rogerb said:

Can you ever see one of these work with Venky 's?

They should only need to be able to work with Waggott. Or the whole thing is a sham.

[blueboy3333]

39 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

 

I see Nixon tweeted Mowbray wants 5 new players early in the window. If and it's a big if, they do this in the correct time frame, not bolloxing around and giving him money near the end, then he could be our best option as realistically I definitely can't see them backing/trusting a new manager more than they would Mowbray. 

Mowbray said the same last summer. In early August he'll be saying he wants a few more, on the day after Transfer Deadline day he'll say he's happy with the squad and then after a couple months of hammerings he'll say he knows where the problems are and he'll address them in January. 

Edited March 31, 2019 by blueboy3333

[DE.]

Warnock was on the verge of coming to work here before Coyle slithered into the picture. Venky's have always plumped for the cheap option but genuine alternatives are there if we want them badly enough. 

[Paul Mani]

 

Stay.

I think in fairness to Mowbray, he’s stayed loyal to the lads who got us up. I’ve no real issue with that and there’s plenty of examples of teams who’ve drastically changed after promotion and ended up going down having spent a fortune. Fulham being the most recent one.

The main thing now is that he accepts that he’s given the lads a chance and that he’s prepared to be ruthless with the likes of Raya, Mulgrew, Bell, Evans and Graham in terms of bringing good players in to replace them.

I think he needs to follow this up by letting go of the surplus players who never complain (Conways, Williams, Smallwood etc). Getting rid of his comfort blanket. 

We need to go up sharpish at the rate we’re burning money. I’m a massive Mowbray fan but I feel this summer will define his reign one way or the other.

[RoversClitheroe]

For me he's got to go.

Too much loyalty to players that aren't of the quality needed - Smallwood, Williams to name but a few. 

Just outside the playoffs in December and we do nothing.

He signs Brereton and never plays him using £5m + on a player when we could have invested it where the weaknesses are. 

Signs Rothwell - never plays him.

By chance selects Travis out of desperation and then appears to claim he deserves the chance when he tried to ship him out on loan. 

Berates Raya when the back 4 let him down week in week out. 

He also can't seem to tactically rectify our awful defending. 

Also says he wants to play on the front foot. All we do is play long ball to Graham and sit deep.

Mowbray has to go.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Just now, blueboy3333 said:

Hardly a ringing endorsement. 

And nobody has said we should be in the top 6. Classic straw man. 

Given you bleat for a new poll every time we lose, I assumed you understood the difference between a poll - a quantification of differing opinions - and a debate - an attempt to change opinions through argument. Apparently not.

[blueboy3333]

Just now, Exiled in Toronto said:

Given you bleat for a new poll every time we lose, I assumed you understood the difference between a poll - a quantification of differing opinions - and a debate - an attempt to change opinions through argument. Apparently not.

That little outburst has nothing to do with the post you responded to. 

[roversfan99]

13 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

 

Stay.

I think in fairness to Mowbray, he’s stayed loyal to the lads who got us up. I’ve no real issue with that and there’s plenty of examples of teams who’ve drastically changed after promotion and ended up going down having spent a fortune. Fulham being the most recent one.

The main thing now is that he accepts that he’s given the lads a chance and that he’s prepared to be ruthless with the likes of Raya, Mulgrew, Bell, Evans and Graham in terms of bringing good players in to replace them.

I think he needs to follow this up by letting go of the surplus players who never complain (Conways, Williams, Smallwood etc). Getting rid of his comfort blanket. 

We need to go up sharpish at the rate we’re burning money. I’m a massive Mowbray fan but I feel this summer will define his reign one way or the other.

Dont understand how Graham is one of the players to be ruthless with. He has been our best player this season.

[rigger]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

Dont understand how Graham is one of the players to be ruthless with. He has been our best player this season.

I would say due to his age. If we are planning for the future he needs to be phased out