Premier League 23-24

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

5 hours ago, sharpysharps86 said:

Luton vs Burnley on Tuesday night is looking like a huge game. Burnley have had a pretty tough run of fixtures to start with, it'll be interesting to see how they do over the next five, playing against more 'beatable' sides.

They won’t be looking forward to visiting Luton. You have to win the fighting before you can win the football.

[DE.]

1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

They won’t be looking forward to visiting Luton. You have to win the fighting before you can win the football.

Also how it used to be at Ewood in the Hughes and Allardyce days, albeit with more quality on the pitch. If you couldn't handle a bit of rough and tumble you were going away bruised with no points. Managers may not have been calling us "the best team we've played" but they weren't walking away with three points too often either. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by DE.

[bazza]

On 26/09/2023 at 14:35, Tabula Rasa said:

They even mention ex-Rovers players in their songs.

Bobby Svarc anyone?

https://halfmanhalfbiscuit.uk/a-to-z-svarc/

That photo of Colchester Utd highlighting Svarc is interesting. Jim Smith, their manager, came to us and later brought Svarc. Back row member of the Colchester team was Ray Harford. I never knew that.

Also never knew svarc is Hungarian for black.

[speeeeeeedie]

11 hours ago, arbitro said:

There is a story this morning that the VAR and AVAR in the Spurs v Liverpool match actually thought a goal had been awarded and therefore said 'check complete' to the on field officials thinking they were merely confirming the award of the goal. How on earth can they not be aware that the AR had his flag up clearly giving Diaz offside. It beggars belief. Apparently they realised their error once the game had restarted but clearly the law doesn't allow for them to go back once the game has restarted. Honestly I'm staggered at this level of incompetence. 

I feel sorry for Howard Webb here. He is doing his level best to improve things by being open and transparent but he simply doesn't have the quality of officials at his disposal. The offside aspect of VAR is actually an exact science so to get it wrong is unforgivable. As an old friend used to say to me 'you can't weave without weft'.

If true that is horrific. Both officials have been removed from their next assignment, but it doesn't change the result. 

It was a bizarrely refereed game. As has been said there were bookings galore and 2 sendings off in a game that had no malice in it at all. 

Jones's tackle looked bad in the freeze frame, but there was nothing else he could do. There was nowhere for his foot to go, and if he was trying to hurt Bissouma he'd have made some sort of stamping movement. 

There was an incident late on. A Spurs player got booked for essentially face palming Endo. If VAR crew would have done the same thing as they did with Jones I'm sure that the Spurs lad would have gone as a freeze frmae would have looked like a slap, although it was not a sending off offence. 

If a ref makes a decision then is asked to go to the TV and have a look its guaranteed that he will change it. You've mentioned many times about the closed shop, don't question mentality amongst top level referees, yesterday was a prime example of why it needs changing. 

[DE.]

Apparently Liverpool are taking things further, will be interesting to see what avenues are open to them. Something needs to change. Clubs can't just keep accepting "oops, our bad, one match suspension for the officials involved". 

[bazza]

Time that refs made their own mind up again. Why can't a ref go to the screen, look at it and turn away to say I was right and my decision stands (Brian Clough style).

Way back when I played football I was taught that "The ref is always right, even when he's made an obvious mistake". Just accept it and get on with the game.

[Tom]

This is getting far more attention because it’s Liverpool but it’s interesting to see their fans claim that they should be awarded points, Spurs should have let them score to even it up etc. They are right to feel hard done by but not sure realistically what can be done.

Whilst it shouldn’t happen how it did it was a marginal call that happens in ever other tier of the game.

[arbitro]

9 hours ago, speeeeeeedie said:

If true that is horrific. Both officials have been removed from their next assignment, but it doesn't change the result. 

It was a bizarrely refereed game. As has been said there were bookings galore and 2 sendings off in a game that had no malice in it at all. 

Jones's tackle looked bad in the freeze frame, but there was nothing else he could do. There was nowhere for his foot to go, and if he was trying to hurt Bissouma he'd have made some sort of stamping movement. 

There was an incident late on. A Spurs player got booked for essentially face palming Endo. If VAR crew would have done the same thing as they did with Jones I'm sure that the Spurs lad would have gone as a freeze frmae would have looked like a slap, although it was not a sending off offence. 

If a ref makes a decision then is asked to go to the TV and have a look its guaranteed that he will change it. You've mentioned many times about the closed shop, don't question mentality amongst top level referees, yesterday was a prime example of why it needs changing. 

There was a clear penalty for Brentford yesterday that wasn't even referred to the referee for an OFR. And the VAR was Michael Oliver who is our best referee. I honestly don't know where Howard Webb goes with this now as the hole has been dug too deep. I saw a list yesterday of apologies for VAR errors which is scary. Imagine the effect that all these have on the final league table and ultimately could cost a club millions.

https://www.sportingnews.com/uk/football/news/var-apology-list-premier-league-pgmol-referee-mistakes/hhw8byssj025djuce3gbd2pp

[AllRoverAsia]

10 hours ago, DE. said:

Apparently Liverpool are taking things further, will be interesting to see what avenues are open to them. Something needs to change. Clubs can't just keep accepting "oops, our bad, one match suspension for the officials involved". 

We should put in a claim against the referee decisions that have gone against us in the past 148 years.

It's too late for points but a cash settlement will sort out our financial woes.😏

I won't be waiting up for the call...

[AllRoverAsia]

36 minutes ago, arbitro said:

There was a clear penalty for Brentford yesterday that wasn't even referred to the referee for an OFR. And the VAR was Michael Oliver who is our best referee. I honestly don't know where Howard Webb goes with this now as the hole has been dug too deep. I saw a list yesterday of apologies for VAR errors which is scary. Imagine the effect that all these have on the final league table and ultimately could cost a club millions.

https://www.sportingnews.com/uk/football/news/var-apology-list-premier-league-pgmol-referee-mistakes/hhw8byssj025djuce3gbd2pp

The list proves Mike Riley didn't understand the word "apology"

[RoverDom]

It's difficult to see where Liverpool can go with this as they're not going to get points or cash compensation (imagine the can of worms that would open up!). However they need to kick up a fuss over this as the list posted higher up shows that there has been some absolute VAR shockers and the bigger fuss the bigger likelihood of some reforms. 

[Ewood Ace]

I'm not sure what Liverpool really can do but it is good to see a club not just accepting the apology and moving on. The PGMOL seem to think they can make cock ups week after week apologise and then everything is ok but given the amount of apologies they have dished out you have to wonder how sincere they are or is it simply PR.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Ewood Ace

[arbitro]

1 hour ago, Ewood Ace said:

I'm not sure what Liverpool really can do but it is good to see a club not just accepting the apology and moving on. The PGMOL seem to think they can make cock ups week after week apologise and then everything is ok but given the amount of apologies they have dished out you have to wonder how sincere they are or is it simply PR.

After so many apologies the effect of them is lost particularly when lessons don't seem to have been learned. I really would like to see VAR  duties taken away from the referees and given to others. My understanding though is this can't happen because they are bound by FIFA protocols and regulations. It still comes across as to chummy and matey when on the released audio they refer to each other by their nicknames ie Tayls, Hoops and Olly.

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, arbitro said:

After so many apologies the effect of them is lost particularly when lessons don't seem to have been learned. I really would like to see VAR  duties taken away from the referees and given to others. My understanding though is this can't happen because they are bound by FIFA protocols and regulations. It still comes across as to chummy and matey when on the released audio they refer to each other by their nicknames ie Tayls, Hoops and Olly.

I would be in favour of Howard Webb being in the VAR room and watching is actually happening there. Even being the main VAR official for weekend of games

[JHRover]

I've said it a few times but it isn't VAR that is the issue, it is the people using it. The fiasco in the Spurs v Liverpool game was nothing to do with a technical failure or VAR being ineffective.

Taken together with other incidents including the Wolves non-penalty at Old Trafford a few weeks ago the question that should be on everyone's lips is whether these 'failings' are genuine errors / mistakes or in the alternative whether something more sinister is going on.

Again, I don't think anyone can realistically argue that technology was the issue.

You might accept the Spurs / Liverpool offside decision if it was one man sat on his own and he'd genuinely missed something or not heard something and got the complete wrong end of the stick. When they are sat with a group of other officials that possibility disappears.

My conclusion is that this is deliberate.

[speeeeeeedie]

57 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I've said it a few times but it isn't VAR that is the issue, it is the people using it. The fiasco in the Spurs v Liverpool game was nothing to do with a technical failure or VAR being ineffective.

Taken together with other incidents including the Wolves non-penalty at Old Trafford a few weeks ago the question that should be on everyone's lips is whether these 'failings' are genuine errors / mistakes or in the alternative whether something more sinister is going on.

Again, I don't think anyone can realistically argue that technology was the issue.

You might accept the Spurs / Liverpool offside decision if it was one man sat on his own and he'd genuinely missed something or not heard something and got the complete wrong end of the stick. When they are sat with a group of other officials that possibility disappears.

My conclusion is that this is deliberate.

It's not deliberate. It's rank incompetence on the part of VAR officials. Every week there are VAR errors unrelated to the technology.

I've said time and again that the Premier League followed the NFL replay model and it isn't working. 

I'd change 3 things ASAP.

• Get rid of VAR officials sat in a room at Stockley Park. Have them at each game instead. They will automatically pay more attention as they only have 1 game to watch, will have a better understanding of how the game is going, and will make better decisions. 
• Like @arbitro says; have ex pro's in there with the ref. The League doesn't need FIFA level officials to look at replays. 
• Remove "clear and obvious error" from the VAR remit. It is open to far too much interpretation. 

[RoverDom]

My changes would be 

- Move to an appeals system like in cricket. VAR only gets involved if a team appeals a decision. They have to say specifically what they are appealing to avoid speculative appeals (as much as you can)

- The ref is in charge and its their decision. When an appeal is made, the ref is immediately over to the monitor and discussions with VAR is a sounding board only. The VAR doesn't recommend anything and doesn't make any decisions, it can give its opinion but the ref makes the final call. 

- A new one following this weekend but have a bit of a script. Like in cricket when an appeal is made you hear a clear process "player review for LBW, on field decision is not out" they then go through a checklist of things and then clearly say "recommend you change your decision to out". The explanation of what happened at Spurs gave the impression there was some guy sat back in his chair with a bag of crisps and a beer "Yeah it's all good move on pal". Much clearer communication is needed. 

 

I'm not sure why it needs to be a ref in the VAR room. If it's the ref making the final decision anyone who knows the slightest thing about football can say "you need to take a look at that" 

[simongarnerisgod]

var should only be used for goal line incidents and for checking bad fouls,if a ref and linesman can`t decide it`s offside then they should`nt be officiating,it`s meant to make the game easier for officials but at the moment it`s making the game a laughing stock

[DE.]

Don't think VAR is required for goal line as Hawkeye can tell precisely if a ball crosses the line or not. It's really just needed for blatant refereeing errors that are obviously and egregiously wrong. I think the vast majority of fans would accept the on pitch ref and linesmen getting the occasional marginal call wrong if it meant the game flowed better and you could celebrate goals without fear of VAR ruling it out for a hair follicle being offside four minutes later. 

[chaddyrovers]

37 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

I'm not sure why it needs to be a ref in the VAR room

because FIFA rules says that it has to be match official in the VAR room. I mentioned previously that I would like to see Howard Webb in the VAR room for the next couple of weeks overseeing everything. 

Never been a fan of VAR and I didn't think it should have come in Football in the first place. I stand by that view. 

41 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

- Move to an appeals system like in cricket. VAR only gets involved if a team appeals a decision. They have to say specifically what they are appealing to avoid speculative appeals (as much as you can)

does appeals the manager or the players given that the managers know within a second or two whether it would be worth an appeal due to have Video game analyst in the stand? 

 

[bazza]

I go back to my initial take on VAR. It should be one man at a screen on the ground in communication with the referee. If there has been a blatant mistake by the ref, VAR man tells him . Ref makes final decision. No-one needs to know, read or hear this conversation. Simple!

[RoverDom]

9 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

because FIFA rules says that it has to be match official in the VAR room. 

Okay. I'm not sure why Fifa rules say it has to be a ref in the VAR room 

[chaddyrovers]

9 minutes ago, RoverDom said:

Okay. I'm not sure why Fifa rules say it has to be a ref in the VAR room 

well its does, so that's the rule

VAR Principles Explained (premierleague.com)

Video Assistant Referee (VAR) protocol | IFAB (theifab.com)

[RoverDom]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

well its does, so that's the rule

VAR Principles Explained (premierleague.com)

Video Assistant Referee (VAR) protocol | IFAB (theifab.com)

🤣🤣 always a pleasure chaddy

[Aqualung]

RIP to Franny Lee BTW. 

It wouldn't be a surprise to me if that famous punch up between him and Norman Hunter got reviewed and both players stayed on the pitch!! 

Fuck Var off and go back to the old system imho.