Cricket

[jim mk2]

27 minutes ago, oldjamfan1 said:

Another disturbing thing I’ve seen a lot of today (including on this very forum) is that people criticising Azeem for his anti semitism are immediately being asked whether they condone what happened to him, the insinuation being that they themselves are racist. 

I take that's a dig at me

All I was saying was a poster was very quick to criticise Azeem without mentioning the abuse (which was 10x worse) that he had received. 

There was no insinuation that poster were racist - you're making that up

[Gav]

35 minutes ago, oldjamfan1 said:

Gav you surely have to agree that his credibility is absolutely flattened by this. Part of his main complaint is that racist language and behaviour was that common some people couldn’t properly recall it. It turns out that he was very much an active part of that culture, and I very much doubt that the tweets that have been unearthed are the only occasions he’s acted like this - it’s either in you or it isn’t. 
Another disturbing thing I’ve seen a lot of today (including on this very forum) is that people criticising Azeem for his anti semitism are immediately being asked whether they condone what happened to him, the insinuation being that they themselves are racist. That sort of reaction is not helpful and the lad is quite rightly being called out for the racist and hypocrite that he clearly is. Robinson got pilloried for a similar offence and it’s only right that Azeem is too. 
Gary Ballance is very likely to stick the boot in on him any time soon as well. They are all as bad as each other.

Whataboutery ojf with respect and no I don't agree.

But what we do agree on is racism in any form is abhorrent, which they're all guilty of.

[LDRover]

22 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

I take that's a dig at me

All I was saying was a poster was very quick to criticise Azeem without mentioning the abuse (which was 10x worse) that he had received. 

There was no insinuation that poster were racist - you're making that up

As 'that poster' I will say I only weighed in with a comment because of the complete hypocrisy of the complainant.

So, Jim, I'll ask again. Do you think Rafiq's tweets were racist?

[K-Hod]

Rafiq’s comments online were obviously awful and he should be punished for them, like every other player has for their historic tweets that have brought them into disrepute. But those tweets in no way equate to the abuse he suffered over a prolonged period of time, that much should be obvious to anyone really.

[jim mk2]

30 minutes ago, LDRover said:

As 'that poster' I will say I only weighed in with a comment because of the complete hypocrisy of the complainant.

So, Jim, I'll ask again. Do you think Rafiq's tweets were racist?

They were anti-semitic for sure, not sure if they racist though, it depends how you define it or whether you consider they're one and the same, but I'm not going down that rabbit hole

I agree there's an element of hypocrisy too but it was minor schoolboy twitter stuff and pales in comparison with the racist abuse he received to his face for 15 years or more

I just thought it odd you mentioned his "hypocrisy" without first condemning what he suffered - perhaps you'd like to explain? 

[oldjamfan1]

1 hour ago, jim mk2 said:

I take that's a dig at me

All I was saying was a poster was very quick to criticise Azeem without mentioning the abuse (which was 10x worse) that he had received. 

There was no insinuation that poster were racist - you're making that up

It wasn’t a dig at anyone in particular but I’ve seen countless people do it today which I find a bit odd to be honest. 

[oldjamfan1]

34 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

They were anti-semitic for sure, not sure if they racist though, it depends how you define it or whether you consider they're one and the same, but I'm not going down that rabbit hole

I agree there's an element of hypocrisy too but it was minor schoolboy twitter stuff and pales in comparison with the racist abuse he received to his face for 15 years or more

I just thought it odd you mentioned his "hypocrisy" without first condemning what he suffered - perhaps you'd like to explain? 

You do know that the anti Semitic tweet isn’t the only thing that has surfaced from him don’t you? There was other stuff relating to blacks/Africans.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.news18.com/cricketnext/amp/news/azeem-rafiqs-old-instagram-post-90-of-our-relatives-wouldve-been-african-emerges-amidst-yorkshire-racism-scandal-4107242.html

He’s a wrong ‘un. 
 

Edited November 19, 2021 by oldjamfan1

[oldjamfan1]

1 hour ago, Gav said:

Whataboutery ojf with respect and no I don't agree.

But what we do agree on is racism in any form is abhorrent, which they're all guilty of.

Whataboutery? Come off it Gav his credibility is blown apart. He’s one of those that can give it out but can’t take it. That much is clear. 
 

Of course your second paragraph is 100% on the money. 

[LDRover]

37 minutes ago, jim mk2 said:

They were anti-semitic for sure, not sure if they racist though, it depends how you define it or whether you consider they're one and the same, but I'm not going down that rabbit hole

I agree there's an element of hypocrisy too but it was minor schoolboy twitter stuff and pales in comparison with the racist abuse he received to his face for 15 years or more

I just thought it odd you mentioned his "hypocrisy" without first condemning what he suffered - perhaps you'd like to explain? 

Like I said, I had no reason to comment until I see someone trying to claim moral high ground in a high profile news piece while being responsible of the same thing they accuse others of. Nothing more to it than that.

[Gav]

20 minutes ago, oldjamfan1 said:

Whataboutery? Come off it Gav his credibility is blown apart. He’s one of those that can give it out but can’t take it. That much is clear.  

Azeem Rafiq was pinned down as a 15yr old Muslim kid at his local cricket club and had a bottle of red wine poured down his throat. 

Can you draw me the comparison above that you're trying to make ojf?

 

[Silas]

15 minutes ago, Gav said:

Azeem Rafiq was pinned down as a 15yr old Muslim kid at his local cricket club and had a bottle of red wine poured down his throat. 

This story gets more and more confusing by the day. Genuinely don't know what to believe anymore. But modern life is a bit like that now isn't it. Difficult to wade through the BS and get to the truth.

 

 

 

 

 

He allegedly is also a big gambler that has amassed rather large debts. 

None of this changes the serious issues of the way he has been treated over his career. 

Just you, and others, seem to be heavily focusing on the Muslim aspect. Would it be ok if a Christian 15 year old was pinned down and force fed wine? 🤔

If I had a teenage child have that happen to them I'd be raging. Alcohol is one of the most dangerous intoxicants in modern society imo. Far moreso than the ridiculously illegal marijuana. 

[Gav]

I hope you have Muslim friends and colleagues Silas, maybe you don't from the comments above.

Would you ever get the lads together and pour red wine down an Asian colleagues throat?

Of course we're heavily focussing on the Muslim aspect, Jesus wept.

Rafiq turned to drinking alcohol to try and fit in with the drinking culture at Yorkshire, by his own admission, I hope that clears things up for you.

 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Gav

[Silas]

7 minutes ago, Gav said:

I hope you have Muslim friends and colleagues Silas, maybe you don't from the comments above.

Why do you 'hope' that? Quite an odd turn of phrase that.

7 minutes ago, Gav said:

Would you ever get the lads together and pour red wine down an Asian colleagues throat?

No, I would never do that to anyone regardless of their ethnicity. Kind of cuts out the middle man right, just being a decent human being.

(And why have you even brought ethnicity into it, we were on religion a minute ago. Leaping from Muslim to Asian and back to Muslim in 3 sentences is ignorant beyond belief)

7 minutes ago, Gav said:

Of course we're heavily focussing on the Muslim aspect, Jesus wept.

Why? Because IF it turns out Azeem Rafiq is a regular drinker of alcohol, his religion has absolutely no bearing on the original story of the wine. UNLESS the truth turns out to be that it was that particular incident that has led him down that path in his life. But that's a hell of a leap at this stage. 

[den]

1 hour ago, oldjamfan1 said:

Whataboutery? Come off it Gav his credibility is blown apart. He’s one of those that can give it out but can’t take it. That much is clear. 
 

Of course your second paragraph is 100% on the money. 

You keep referring to Rafiq’s credibility OJF.

Im not quite sure what you’re trying to prove by that. Are you saying that his claims of being the recipient of racist behaviour are in question, are you saying that he’s partly responsible for the alleged treatment he got because of some of his own social media posts - or are you saying something else?

[Silas]

1 hour ago, Gav said:

Rafiq turned to drinking alcohol to try and fit in with the drinking culture at Yorkshire, by his own admission, I hope that clears things up for you.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.joe.co.uk/amp/sport/cricketer-azeem-rafiq-drink-red-wine-as-a-15-year-old-300338

Thanks that has helped clear it up. I see it in this article too.

I'm just not happy with religion being injected into this unnecessarily, when it sidelines the real issues. I notice he doesn't seem to mention it at all in his testimony. The chair does though:

“15 and you were a Muslim?” replied the DCMS chair once again.

 

And most telling is the final comment in the article from AR:

“Like I said, I regret that massively but again, it has no bearings on the things that I was called."

 

Yeah, what he was called. The elephant washers, the Kevin's, the p word, the affect it might have had on his career, and just as importantly, on his general life and mental health.

As I'm typing this I'm watching a recording of the Last Leg, and I note they cover the wine incident without mentioning his religion at all. Adam Hills: "That is not banter. Standing around whilst stuff like that happens and not calling anyone out on it is not ok." 👏👏

Yeah, regardless of what idol you worship. Bravo to them. They always get it right. 

[Gav]

Lets get this back to cricket.

The first Test is in Brisbane on 8 December, before a day-night match in Adelaide on 16 December.

BT Sports have bought the Tv rights, but won't be sending any commentators down under, we'll be getting the local commentary from Fox and channel 7 by all accounts.

I think we'll get thumped, I don't like the side which should have included Mahmood at a minimum, I'd have also taken Parkinson and Livingston, who I know has very little test match experience, but we need fearless players in the team, not blockers.

I think 4-1 is the best we can hope for, but we'll probably lose 5-0.

[oldjamfan1]

11 hours ago, den said:

You keep referring to Rafiq’s credibility OJF.

Im not quite sure what you’re trying to prove by that. Are you saying that his claims of being the recipient of racist behaviour are in question, are you saying that he’s partly responsible for the alleged treatment he got because of some of his own social media posts - or are you saying something else?

I’m certainly not suggesting he was responsible and I think I have made it very clear what I think of the behaviour towards him. But for some unfathomable reason a huge swathe of people seem reluctant to call him out for the hypocrite and - yes - racist that he is. It’s HIS credibility, not that of his allegations, that I am referring to. The credibility of anyone who is racist is surely in question. As someone above says there is much more to his particular story than meets the eye and for the umpteenth time and for additional clarity I agree that the systemic and institutional racism in cricket needs to be sorted out.
And @gav - of course I’m not directly comparing what he did to what he received but you clearly are - the very definition of whataboutery wouldn’t you say? 

Edited November 20, 2021 by oldjamfan1

[Gav]

40 minutes ago, oldjamfan1 said:

I’m certainly not suggesting he was responsible and I think I have made it very clear what I think of the behaviour towards him. But for some unfathomable reason a huge swathe of people seem reluctant to call him out for the hypocrite and - yes - racist that he is. The credibility of anyone who is racist is surely in question. As someone above says there is much more to his particular story than meets the eye and for the umpteenth time and for additional clarity I agree that the systemic and institutional racism in cricket needs to be sorted out.
And @gav - of course I’m not directly comparing what he did to what he received but you clearly are - the very definition of whataboutery wouldn’t you say? 

I'll be honest with you ojf, the scramble to paint Rafiq as the bad guy is unsavoury to say the least and its often from a position of not even knowing the facts relating to the claims. It may not be the intention of posters on this board to do that, but thats the way its coming across. 

As Jim said yesterday, being racially abused 7 days a week by your work mates, which isn't in dispute by the way, is a far different proposition than sharing private whatsapp messages with a mate, but both are racist.

Throw the book at them all.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Gav

[oldjamfan1]

17 minutes ago, Gav said:

I'll be honest with you ojf, the scramble to paint Rafiq as the bad guy is unsavoury to say the least and its often from a position of not even knowing the facts relating to the claims. It may not be the intention of posters on this board to do that, but thats the way its coming across. 

As Jim said yesterday, being racially abused 7 days a week by your work mates, which isn't in dispute by the way, is a far different proposition than sharing private whatsapp messages with a mate, but both are racist.

Throw the book at them all.

 

I hear you Gav but substitute Tory MP for Rafiq and the scramble would have been tenfold. I’m not racist but I don’t care for hypocrisy.

[den]

30 minutes ago, oldjamfan1 said:

I hear you Gav but substitute Tory MP for Rafiq and the scramble would have been tenfold. I’m not racist but I don’t care for hypocrisy.

I don’t get that at all. We are not talking about political parties here. There are two seperate accusations here. One against Rafiq for his alleged behaviour and one against Yorkshire ccc’s non actions at a report of racism against Rafiq.

For me, Rafiq’s “credibility” doesn’t come into either case. When you question someone’s credibility, you’re questioning his honesty. 
 

Is that what you’re doing?

[oldjamfan1]

5 minutes ago, den said:

I don’t get that at all. We are not talking about political parties here. There are two seperate accusations here. One against Rafiq for his alleged behaviour and one against Yorkshire ccc’s non actions at a report of racism against Rafiq.

For me, Rafiq’s “credibility” doesn’t come into either case. When you question someone’s credibility, you’re questioning his honesty. 
 

Is that what you’re doing?

If I accused an employee of stealing £2000 from the till, and made a big song and dance about it, eventually sacking them, then 6 months down the line it came out that I myself had previously helped myself to a lesser amount, say £20 but forgot to mention it, would you say I was credible?

[den]

52 minutes ago, oldjamfan1 said:

If I accused an employee of stealing £2000 from the till, and made a big song and dance about it, eventually sacking them, then 6 months down the line it came out that I myself had previously helped myself to a lesser amount, say £20 but forgot to mention it, would you say I was credible?

I would say that if the employee HAD stole £2000 you were right to sack him.

If you stole £20 you were wrong to do that.

One action had no bearing on the other.

 

 

[oldjamfan1]

3 hours ago, Gav said:

Lets get this back to cricket.

The first Test is in Brisbane on 8 December, before a day-night match in Adelaide on 16 December.

BT Sports have bought the Tv rights, but won't be sending any commentators down under, we'll be getting the local commentary from Fox and channel 7 by all accounts.

I think we'll get thumped, I don't like the side which should have included Mahmood at a minimum, I'd have also taken Parkinson and Livingston, who I know has very little test match experience, but we need fearless players in the team, not blockers.

I think 4-1 is the best we can hope for, but we'll probably lose 5-0.

Yeah it’s difficult to see beyond a one-sided series really, mainly down to our brittle top 6. 
I’d like to think Stokes will make all the difference for us but in reality he will just make it a bit tighter and less of a rout.

[oldjamfan1]

Just now, den said:

I would say that if the employee HAD stole £2000 you were right to sack him.

If you stole £20 you were wrong to do that.

One action had no bearing on the other.

 

 

We are going round in circles here so I’ll probably draw a line under my contribution to this - I asked you a very specific question there about whether you think under those circumstances I was credible -  which you dodged as it doesn’t suit your narrative. 
 

Anyway I’m off to Hampden Park today as a ‘treat’ from one of my sons, hope the Rovers have 3 points in the bag by the time that game kicks off. 

[K-Hod]

His credibility is damaged, but not completely smashed to pieces. I think people are using a false equivalency to make a point in some cases.