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Tony Mowbray's Reign...& is he off to Sunderland ?


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10 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

I never understand why people have to be so melodramatic about Mowbray….

He’d done a half decent job until last March when he should’ve had the bullet. Those suggestingnhes worse than Kean or Coyle need to get a grip.

Why people can’t just say he’s done a decent job but now needs a a change I’ll never know.

Exactly Paul. He has done a decent job but he doesn't have the required quality to sustain and maintain our promotion hope and tactical awareness to achieve Promotion push over a complete season 

13 hours ago, Mercer said:

Make no mistake, if and when (and it looks almost certainly 'when') Mowbray leaves in the next few weeks, IMO, we will be left in a real 'Coyleyesque' mess. 

What a load of tosh you talk. Mowbray is nowhere near leaving this club in the mess that Coyle and Kean left this club. 

The playing squad will need 8 to 10 signings but I think a freshen up of the playing squad and the management team is exactly what the club after the past 2 years of not achieving at least playoff place. Last season we should have got top 6 given the financial backing Mowbray has and this season we should have got top 6 given we were second in the league after beating Boro at home. Missing out on the top 6 this season is utter and completely unacceptable. 

We need a new manager who will put the fight and passion back into the players and the club for next season. Cos currently I see very little of this from the current squad in recent games. 

Didn't you say Mowbray was joining WBA to replace Ismael in February? 

35 minutes ago, Ossydave said:

As well as Sharpe becoming more critical of Mowbray, I also thought the commentary team had changed their tune when watching the posh game. They normally try and put a positive spin on things but were deflated and basically saying "this is shite and unacceptable".

Well its good to know that their commentators are telling it has it is. I guess these Rovers TV commentators? 

16 minutes ago, Jimmy612 said:

 

Purely for our own nostalgia, in the 07/08 summer window Rovers spent £5.58m, most of which was on Santa Cruz.  We finished 7th in the Prem.  What a team that was! 
 

Yes it was great team to watch and a side that played passion, pride and for the shirt. 

But Hughes change his tactics during that season after we were beaten by Larissa and Portsmouth he changed  to 4-2-3-1 with Tugay and Mokenna in centre midfield, Derbyshire wide right, Bentley has a 10, Pedersen wide left and Santa Cruz up front. The next game we won 2-1- Away at Sunderland. Mowbray need to adapt and change his tactics otherwise we win against Stoke on Easter Monday. 

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44 minutes ago, Jimmy612 said:

This comment did prompt me to do a bit of research. Here are the final Championship league positions that season with the basic, outgoing transfer spend on playing staff. Source is TransferMarkt.  Rather than plod through all 24 clubs Ive tried to take a cross section of those clubs who may have been higher spenders, I.e. former PL or larger city clubs. 
 

1st - WBA - £20m

2nd - Stoke - £6.25m

3rd - Hull - £2.81m

4th - Bristol City - £3.78m

5th - Palace - £1.49m

6th - Watford - £9.38m

7th - Wolves - £6.75m

9th - Sheff United - £8.91 

11th - Charlton - £12.18m

12th - Cardiff - £0.00

14th - QPR - £8.93m

17th - Norwich - £2.03m

20th - Saints - £2.81m

22nd - Leicester - £7.79m


So, considering in the previous 3 seasons they had also spent a combined £30m with a net spend of £18m or so, it’s actually quite logical to think they may have had quite an expensive bench, certainly by Championship standards.  WBA were big spenders and whilst TM clearly succeeded, it would have been a minimum expectation to get promoted I would imagine.  He outspent all other clubs by close to double!

This doesn’t take in to account net spend that season.  They sold £29m of players in the summer, including a combined £15m on Diomansy Kamara and Jason Koumas, £5m on Nathan Ellington, £4m on Kusczack to United etc etc. But, on balance, £20m spend in the Champ at that time (on top of an expensively assembled squad from previous years) was quite a war chest!

The following season they spent a further £22m but went down dead last with 32 points.  So all in all, 3 seasons, £45m spent, one promotion and one relegation. 

Purely for our own nostalgia, in the 07/08 summer window Rovers spent £5.58m, most of which was on Santa Cruz.  We finished 7th in the Prem.  What a team that was! 
 


 

 

 

 

So we can conclude it isn't ALL about budget, unless it involves TM

My opinion is he needs a decent budget just to tread water .

If he didn't get a midtable budget here and have the facilities and academy players to select he has we'd have been bang in trouble years ago. Just like under Coyle or anyone else of that ilk yet there are managers out there who out perform us every season with less, this is a fact.

Alternatively he needs a whopping budget to get anywhere near a genuine promotion because that allows for the mistakes. More good players the more you can change things, cover injuries and have guys who pulls games out of the mire when you are bad. Stands to reason and no surprise there but it displays he isn't a great manager with a plan just a guy who needs a big helping hand to gain any advantage at all. It's never tactical or getting blood from a stone and he really is no over achiever at all.

West Brom / Rovers lge 1 - biggest budgets and spending power by some way and taking over squads full of players of pedigree for the league above  -  Result =  Promotion

Boro / Rovers Championship - Modest budget, squad, backing = Midtable messiah 

Cov lge 1 - No budget = Backwards at an alarming rate after a decent start. 

So the upshot is to get anywhere at all at any club Tony Mowbray and his gang need a whopping budget, big wage bill and quality already in place to build around.

Otherwise it's a yearly midtable finish and being told to be grateful for it.

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1 hour ago, Jimmy612 said:

This comment did prompt me to do a bit of research. Here are the final Championship league positions that season

So, considering in the previous 3 seasons they had also spent a combined £30m with a net spend of £18m or so, it’s actually quite logical to think they may have had quite an expensive bench, certainly by Championship standards. 

Nice bit of research Jimmy, but why hasn't the better half got you putting up some shelving or painting a fence this sunny bank holiday weekend?

I've just looked at the side he took up as Champions:

West Brom: Kiely, Hoefkens, Barnett, Clement (Albrechtsen 53), Robinson (Moore 72), Koren, Gera, Brunt, Greening, Bednar (Kim 46), Phillips.
Subs Not Used: Miller, Morrison.

I'd wager the entire was wasn't worth much more £25m back then let alone the bench!

Anyway must run, another fence panel to paint......

 

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11 minutes ago, tomphil said:

So we can conclude it isn't ALL about budget, unless it involves TM

My opinion is he needs a decent budget just to tread water .

If he didn't get a midtable budget here and have the facilities and academy players to select he has we'd have been bang in trouble years ago. Just like under Coyle or anyone else of that ilk yet there are managers out there who out perform us every season with less, this is a fact.

Alternatively he needs a whopping budget to get anywhere near a genuine promotion because that allows for the mistakes. More good players the more you can change things, cover injuries and have guys who pulls games out of the mire when you are bad. Stands to reason and no surprise there but it displays he isn't a great manager with a plan just a guy who needs a big helping hand to gain any advantage at all. It's never tactical or getting blood from a stone and he really is no over achiever at all.

West Brom / Rovers lge 1 - biggest budgets and spending power by some way and taking over squads full of players of pedigree for the league above  -  Result =  Promotion

Boro / Rovers Championship - Modest budget, squad, backing = Midtable messiah 

Cov lge 1 - No budget = Backwards at an alarming rate after a decent start. 

So the upshot is to get anywhere at all at any club Tony Mowbray and his gang need a whopping budget, big wage bill and quality already in place to build around.

Otherwise it's a yearly midtable finish and being told to be grateful for it.

I haven’t analysed the League One spends in 2018 or whenever it was, but there’s good reason to believe that his two markedly successful campaigns as a manager have correlated with him having probably the highest budget and likely strongest squads in the league.  Neither were a shock or an underdog story, so to speak. 

There is of course the argument that you still have to get it done.  Souness would have had an enormous budget in Div 1, perhaps more than Fulham at the time, I genuinely have no idea.  Although I seem to think they splashed big on Saha who was ridiculous in that league.  Malbranque and Boa Morte too maybe?

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3 minutes ago, Gav said:

Nice bit of research Jimmy, but why hasn't the better half got you putting up some shelving or painting a fence this sunny bank holiday weekend?

I've just looked at the side he took up as Champions:

West Brom: Kiely, Hoefkens, Barnett, Clement (Albrechtsen 53), Robinson (Moore 72), Koren, Gera, Brunt, Greening, Bednar (Kim 46), Phillips.
Subs Not Used: Miller, Morrison.

I'd wager the entire was wasn't worth much more £25m back then let alone the bench!

Anyway must run, another fence panel to paint......

 

Haha, trick is to set your alarm early and enjoy an hour before she ruins your day!  I’m about to weed and feed the lawn. 
 

Do take in to account though, that this is now… 14 years ago? The cost of football is more or less incomparable. Perhaps there is some ratio or formula would allow a comparison… rather like currency or monetary value over the years. 
 

Even so, if you’re outspending the majority of your rivals by double or triple, you should really be expecting to win the league. He did that, great, but let’s have the full picture if possible. 

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I am of the belief that the situation at Rovers is actually a very simple and easy one to understand, that everything that happens flows directly from it and that there is an awful lot of delusion when it comes to the owners and any sort of plan.

Start from the point that any major decisions involving owner investment have to be approved by Madame and her husband in India and that they will only do this when it suits them, which almost certainly requires the incumbent manager to wait for his chance to meet them at their convenience in their backyard in India. 

We know this. This has been the case since day 1 and has never changed. Reptile Kean knew this which is why one of the first things he did to establish his position was to go there, and he kept on going there on a relatively frequent basis. He went directly to the source of power and money and it worked for him - he became unsackable and was relatively well backed financially and was given control enabling him to carry out his schemes. 

That was only broken when a third party was brought into the equation - Shebby Singh - which upset the apple cart and seemingly blocked the direct line Kean had to India.

Neither Henning Berg nor Michael Appleton had the time or opportunity to do what Kean did and go to India, both appointed by middle men based in Blackburn. Neither got any proper backing from the owners because neither persuaded them to do it and both lasted a matter of weeks.

Gary Bowyer also knew that he needed to go to them and so after securing survival in 2013 the first thing he did was go to India to seek 'clarity' coming back with a long term contract and licence to rebuild and overhaul the squad. He did a good job at it but he knew what he needed to do to get there.

In 2015 he didn't get his summit meeting. Who knows why but this is around the time mystery man Pasha starts to be noticed around the place. The budget is cut under the guise of FFP - Cairney and Gestede sold and hardly anything reinvested and after months of speculation he is finally sacked mid-season. My interpretation of that is there was a scheme to replace him for quite some time that took the top owners a long time to authorise.

Lambert arrives and throws a spanner in the works because he is the first and to date only one who doesn't need the stress of it. He can go elsewhere and work so basically calls their bluff, setting his demands out publicly and when the owners in India stay silent and inert he walks. 

Coyle comes along thanks to his friends in low places and again gets little to no financial backing, has to sell some assets and doesn't get the chance to meet the owners in India. Doesn't last long although long enough to relegate us. Again it seems a long time went by waiting for authorisation to fire to arrive from India.

Mowbray's first summer and he knows what he needs to do - get to India ASAP - he does that and despite a mediocre CV and recent relegation he comes back with a long term deal and good financial backing - able to swiftly sign relative League One big hitters such as Dack and retain his Championship squad at considerable expense. The following summer after promotion he goes to India and comes back with cash again to spend on Armstrong and Brereton. The summer after Gallagher. Mowbray seems happy and comfortable knowing what is happening.

Since Mowbray last went to India he has taken on more of a disillusioned and unhappy appearance, the budget has clearly been slashed and we are now set to go over another precipice of uncertainty and a massive rebuild in the summer, something that has been building to a head now for 18 months and nothing has been done about it.

I think the people out there who think that Venkys have a plan - that they are following results and performances, are fed up with Mowbray, are just waiting for his contract to expire before bringing in a new or better manager - are in for a shock. 

They just don't care. I don't believe they have any interest in Mowbray's contractual situation or what is happening on the ground at Ewood. 

I think there are only two ways this pans out from here, and it ultimately rests on what Mowbray wants to do himself. This is the only unknown to me. 

If Mowbray wants to stay as our manager beyond this season I think he will be able to. If he gets on a plane to India he will be. He isn't going to go to that effort and trouble if he doesn't want to be here and Venkys won't take him there if they don't want him here. If he gets out there and round a table with the owners and talks to them there is no doubt they will give him a deal and some sort of budget to rebuild the squad and a fresh remit to go again.

The unknown element here is whether he throws in the towel and walks. He clearly doesn't enjoy being here and he's obviously lost the dressing room and most of the fanbase although many won't admit it. We don't know the ins and outs of whether he has been mucked around by the owners recently but I think it is safe to assume he has going by his conduct and what the club has done over the last 18 months. So he might just walk.

If he does that then anything could happen. But it won't be pretty I'm certain of that. Paying compensation for a manager isn't going to happen and I think the rest depends on who has the ear of the owners and whether someone can worm their way in with them. I'm convinced they are likely to give it to Venus or Johnson to keep the rest of the staff happy and in jobs and incur minimum expense or hassle. 

If they do that I think my season ticket will be cancelled.

Edited by JHRover
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28 minutes ago, Jimmy612 said:

I haven’t analysed the League One spends in 2018 or whenever it was, but there’s good reason to believe that his two markedly successful campaigns as a manager have correlated with him having probably the highest budget and likely strongest squads in the league.  Neither were a shock or an underdog story, so to speak. 

There is of course the argument that you still have to get it done.  Souness would have had an enormous budget in Div 1, perhaps more than Fulham at the time, I genuinely have no idea.  Although I seem to think they splashed big on Saha who was ridiculous in that league.  Malbranque and Boa Morte too maybe?

Yes you surely have to have something about you to still get it done even Dalglish struggled here for a bit despite buying a galaxy of good players.

I'd wager the man management side of it can win out over the tactical stuff when you have such strength at your disposal. I think that is probably Mowbrays biggest strength he's very much a players man. Maybe not so much now but he doesn't have experience running the dressing room for him like in the past.

I guess the upshot of all this from my point of view is unless you are a club loaded and ready to fire, or just happy sitting in midtable there isn't much point in entertaining a guy like him and paying him big wages. If you want to over achieve on limited means you need to look elsewhere outside the box a bit.

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3 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Yes you surely have to have something about you to still get it done even Dalglish struggled here for a bit despite buying a galaxy of good players.

I'd wager the man management side of it can win out over the tactical stuff when you have such strength at your disposal. I think that is probably Mowbrays biggest strength he's very much a players man. Maybe not so much now but he doesn't have experience running the dressing room for him like in the past.

I guess the upshot of all this from my point of view is unless you are a club loaded and ready to fire, or just happy sitting in midtable there isn't much point in entertaining a guy like him and paying him big wages. If you want to over achieve on limited means you need to look elsewhere outside the box a bit.

I agree with your main point, but we aren’t paying Mowbray big wages, that’s why he’s here, because he fits the Venky model of being cheap and available. 

Edited by Gav
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24 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I am of the belief that the situation at Rovers is actually a very simple and easy one to understand, that everything that happens flows directly from it and that there is an awful lot of delusion when it comes to the owners and any sort of plan.

Start from the point that any major decisions involving owner investment have to be approved by Madame and her husband in India and that they will only do this when it suits them, which almost certainly requires the incumbent manager to wait for his chance to meet them at their convenience in their backyard in India. 

We know this. This has been the case since day 1 and has never changed. Reptile Kean knew this which is why one of the first things he did to establish his position was to go there, and he kept on going there on a relatively frequent basis. He went directly to the source of power and money and it worked for him - he became unsackable and was relatively well backed financially and was given control enabling him to carry out his schemes. 

That was only broken when a third party was brought into the equation - Shebby Singh - which upset the apple cart and seemingly blocked the direct line Kean had to India.

Neither Henning Berg nor Michael Appleton had the time or opportunity to do what Kean did and go to India, both appointed by middle men based in Blackburn. Neither got any proper backing from the owners because neither persuaded them to do it and both lasted a matter of weeks.

Gary Bowyer also knew that he needed to go to them and so after securing survival in 2013 the first thing he did was go to India to seek 'clarity' coming back with a long term contract and licence to rebuild and overhaul the squad. He did a good job at it but he knew what he needed to do to get there.

In 2015 he didn't get his summit meeting. Who knows why but this is around the time mystery man Pasha starts to be noticed around the place. The budget is cut under the guise of FFP - Cairney and Gestede sold and hardly anything reinvested and after months of speculation he is finally sacked mid-season. My interpretation of that is there was a scheme to replace him for quite some time that took the top owners a long time to authorise.

Lambert arrives and throws a spanner in the works because he is the first and to date only one who doesn't need the stress of it. He can go elsewhere and work so basically calls their bluff, setting his demands out publicly and when the owners in India stay silent and inert he walks. 

Coyle comes along thanks to his friends in low places and again gets little to no financial backing, has to sell some assets and doesn't get the chance to meet the owners in India. Doesn't last long although long enough to relegate us. Again it seems a long time went by waiting for authorisation to fire to arrive from India.

Mowbray's first summer and he knows what he needs to do - get to India ASAP - he does that and despite a mediocre CV and recent relegation he comes back with a long term deal and good financial backing - able to swiftly sign relative League One big hitters such as Dack and retain his Championship squad at considerable expense. The following summer after promotion he goes to India and comes back with cash again to spend on Armstrong and Brereton. The summer after Gallagher. Mowbray seems happy and comfortable knowing what is happening.

Since Mowbray last went to India he has taken on more of a disillusioned and unhappy appearance, the budget has clearly been slashed and we are now set to go over another precipice of uncertainty and a massive rebuild in the summer, something that has been building to a head now for 18 months and nothing has been done about it.

I think the people out there who think that Venkys have a plan - that they are following results and performances, are fed up with Mowbray, are just waiting for his contract to expire before bringing in a new or better manager - are in for a shock. 

They just don't care. I don't believe they have any interest in Mowbray's contractual situation or what is happening on the ground at Ewood. 

I think there are only two ways this pans out from here, and it ultimately rests on what Mowbray wants to do himself. This is the only unknown to me. 

If Mowbray wants to stay as our manager beyond this season I think he will be able to. If he gets on a plane to India he will be. He isn't going to go to that effort and trouble if he doesn't want to be here and Venkys won't take him there if they don't want him here. If he gets out there and round a table with the owners and talks to them there is no doubt they will give him a deal and some sort of budget to rebuild the squad and a fresh remit to go again.

The unknown element here is whether he throws in the towel and walks. He clearly doesn't enjoy being here and he's obviously lost the dressing room and most of the fanbase although many won't admit it. We don't know the ins and outs of whether he has been mucked around by the owners recently but I think it is safe to assume he has going by his conduct and what the club has done over the last 18 months. So he might just walk.

If he does that then anything could happen. But it won't be pretty I'm certain of that. Paying compensation for a manager isn't going to happen and I think the rest depends on who has the ear of the owners and whether someone can worm their way in with them. I'm convinced they are likely to give it to Venus or Johnson to keep the rest of the staff happy and in jobs and incur minimum expense or hassle. 

If they do that I think my season ticket will be cancelled.

I think they could keep Mowbray and crew purely because they are too lazy to do anything else.

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1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

What a load of tosh you talk. Mowbray is nowhere near leaving this club in the mess that Coyle and Kean left this club. 

The playing squad will need 8 to 10 signings

8-10 signings needed? Sounds like the club is in a bit of a mess…

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8 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Today Mowbray has decided “we are asking too much of Brereton”.

Funny that, seeing as how we didn’t need a centre forward in January because we didn’t play with one. And he decided what we really needed to do was pay money for Ryan Hedges’ contributions since then, despite the fact he was coming in a free at the end of the season.

The man is a complete idiot. Brereton did his bit on Saturday. The fact we conceded 2 goals to an absolutely hopeless side was obviously the issue. His moronic substitutions played a big part in this.

If he thinks that then he should have bought a striker in January like you have said. He is just going through his blame game book again and blaming everyone but himself and his stubborness to adapt his tactics, formation and coaching staff. 

Yes he signed Hedges but not won't start him so why sign him so quickly. 

Friday debate was a cock up from start to finish in the main, wrong team and formation pick, no passion or desire from the players or Mowbray all game, The players he bought on was right but if he was taking Edun off at half time when not do before he was sent off. 

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11 minutes ago, Gav said:

I agree with your main point, but we aren’t paying Mowbray big wages, that’s why he’s here, because he fits the Venky model of being cheap and available. 

Big wages relative to our standing and budget i should say.

He probably started off cheap but i'd be surprised if he isn't on a decent wage compared to most outside of the bigger hitters in this league. He'll be on an upper midtable salary which will probably cost the club around a million a year and he's been regularly out performed by managers on less.

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I am still sticking to my thoughts that behind the scenes a possible contract extension is all but agreed and will depend n his visit to India to offer some sort of explanation as to how this season, as successful as it may be gleaned, has eventually panned out. This is despite his media claims that there hasn't been any discussion.

If we are to accept that substantial planning is already in place for next season, then unless Rovers have a new manager in waiting and he is the one doing the planning, then it seems likely he will be here next season.

As is contract ends in June he is bound by the terms of his contract to go to see the owners unless he resigns or just decides that he isn't going pre the contract ending date being reached, same with SW.

I don't buy the WBA link and would be very surprised if they went down that route.

No matter what, I want him out because he has gone stale and doesn't appear to have a clue about learning from his mistakes!

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24 minutes ago, 1864roverite said:

I am still sticking to my thoughts that behind the scenes a possible contract extension is all but agreed and will depend n his visit to India to offer some sort of explanation as to how this season, as successful as it may be gleaned, has eventually panned out. This is despite his media claims that there hasn't been any discussion.

If we are to accept that substantial planning is already in place for next season, then unless Rovers have a new manager in waiting and he is the one doing the planning, then it seems likely he will be here next season.

As is contract ends in June he is bound by the terms of his contract to go to see the owners unless he resigns or just decides that he isn't going pre the contract ending date being reached, same with SW.

I don't buy the WBA link and would be very surprised if they went down that route.

No matter what, I want him out because he has gone stale and doesn't appear to have a clue about learning from his mistakes!

This is 100% how i see it.

We have to remember the same people telling us he was gone last summer then he was a dead man walking in the hours after the Fulham defeat.  I'm not saying they haven't heard these things but for the umpteenth time it all turns out just to be urban myths as do a lot of other things.

It is bang on more likely that things just continue the way they are and i suspect come next Nov/Dec Ewood won't be a very happy place.

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1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

If he thinks that then he should have bought a striker in January like you have said. He is just going through his blame game book again and blaming everyone but himself and his stubborness to adapt his tactics, formation and coaching staff. 

Yes he signed Hedges but not won't start him so why sign him so quickly. 

Friday debate was a cock up from start to finish in the main, wrong team and formation pick, no passion or desire from the players or Mowbray all game, The players he bought on was right but if he was taking Edun off at half time when not do before he was sent off. 

Correct, starting Edun was a strange one given his lack of game time but once he’d decided to sub him it should have been done straight away.

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1 hour ago, Miller11 said:

New tactic will be council grants. 3 sided Ewood here we come!

The new hotel will be a tent pitch, show your support pay 50 quid to pitch a tent up on match day. Get your photo on our camping wall for another 200 quid 

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3 minutes ago, PeteJD13 said:

The new hotel will be a tent pitch, show your support pay 50 quid to pitch a tent up on match day. Get your photo on our camping wall for another 200 quid 

Limited edition Balaji Rao NFTs will find the academy for a few decades I’m sure.

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11 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

Pickering - Terrible

Markandy - you are hanging our hat on someone who's never played mens football 

Dolan - Little Boy Step Over will be found out soon

Bucko - 🤷‍♂️  not been great really has he

Carter - Donkey 

We are.screwed, cheers Tony.

Liking because recruitment has been poor. Markanday hasn't played a single professional game. But we're dealing with a fanbase that think he's a striker.

But I have to say players like Dolan and Buckley have been mismanaged.

I think this gives us some insight into TM's mindset in the January transfer window.
 

Quote

 

From Lancashire Telegraph

Markanday has played much of his football out wide, cutting in from the right with his left foot, but Mowbray sees a flexibility to the attacker that can help boost his options.

The manager added: “He can play in all of them and he’s pretty comfortable in all of them.

We can rotate people around and see what we think the individual assets of our players against the qualities of the opposition, whether we play a right footer on the left or a left footer on the right, or use the speed of a right footer down the right, we can look at all of those.

 

fm2022.thumb.png.f7ef610e6f1a90355088eb1a781f9711.png

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