Getting fed up with those on here moaning about ‘Ben bashing’ or whatever they’re calling it. It’s been said a million times over already, so it really shouldn’t need saying again, but it’s not what this is about. It’s because we have so many glaring weaknesses in our team that we shouldn’t have shelled out £7 million on potential. That’s the crux of it. If we had a bottomless pit I’m sure we’d all be thrilled with bringing in a young lad who could one day make a name for himself. As it stands, and at no fault of Ben’s, this is looking to be a very baffling and costly signing.

All this newly promoted carp is getting a bit tiresome now we spent ONE yes ONE season in league 1 not four or five like some do we also had the biggest budget by some way. We are where we are right now and where we should and maybe would have been had the dark forces not reared their ugly heads in the shape of I have been stopped from posting this by moderators. Coyle. This squad has bags of Championship experience and players capable of at least treading water In it so time to put that excuse aside we've proven already we can compete the trick is now pushing it on not just settling for mediocre because it's all some like to expect. Have a go, get some lively players in and play them !

This will be lapped up by half the messageboard but its peddling a load of old rubbish that isnt true. Most of my friends believe we are heading in the right direction with exactly the right manager at the helm - so do most of the people on this messageboard, contrary to what some would suggest, very, very few people (Mercer and jim i think are the only 2 I know who have insinuated it) that arent happy with Mowbray in charge. Very much the minority. I was very happy that the owners signed Mowbray up on a long term contract - again, see above, so are the majority on here. impressed with some of the football that we are trying to play - in terms of results, ie the important part, we are about where we should be, and Mowbray has done a good job. Aesthetically, less so, we are very direct, play the most long balls in the league and often rely on set pieces to score. there are players who will gradually be replaced - Mowbray said that himself last month - agree that it needs to happen, some feel that perhaps it is happening too slowly in terms of too much loyalty afforded to the likes of Smallwood and Armstrong, with some of his own signings (Rothwell, Palmer, Rodwell, Brereton) yet to be consistently incorporated into his team. Lets not go down the route of perceiving criticism of certain aspects to be an overall unhappiness with Mowbray or the direction that the club is going in under him.

That's why there is a furore.

Mid table team with a mid table manager which is where I see us for next few seasons with Tony as manager. There will come a point we will need to take a gamble where we either give mowbray a significant war chest to strengthen squad to get rid of the Williams and Smallwoods of the team but allow for a mowbray dropabollock as we have seen with the breretons, gladwins, Hart, Samuel but hoping a pulls a few more dacks out that or we gamble with a change in the manager to pull us up to the upper echos of the league. If venkys do neither it could be a rather frustrating few seasons ahead

Can we stop trying to pinpoint one player as the reason we dropped points yesterday. Blaming ‘individual errors’ is a lazy excuse used by managers and fans and spectators lap it up. If you have a look on any Birmingham message board, I expect there is quite a bit of talk about how they gave themselves a mountain to climb thanks to their centre half losing Graham, and there full back letting Armstrong get away from him and then ball watching. Fact of the matter is we are struggling to see games out. It’s becoming a pattern. It’s not Brereton or Raya’s fault - we need to be better collectively over 90 minutes. The system we employ plays to the strengths of Graham and Dack to the extent where we rely on them very heavily. It seems to, in Mowbray’s mind at least, necessitate playing Evans and Smallwood, both of whom I believe we have better options than but we end up playing better players out of position. It exposes our full backs to be doubled up on, and restricts the amount of balls we put into the box from wide positions. We do tend to look lost without Graham on the pitch, and if/when Dack goes, Mowbray may well have to have a rethink.

Sadly you take things very literally Chris. I’m not saying bring back Souness - I’m saying someone like him. I must have missed where Grealish has been sold for £40m. According to transfermarkt nobody has paid a fee for him ever. You are using another dreamland transfer to justify another. Expectations of how well we should be doing have to change with time. Much like a result can be accepted “on paper” and “I’d have taken that before the game”, I’m looking for a manager who can take opportunities. When we go 1-0 down and we bring off a striker to bring on a defender; when we play against 10 men and we don’t kick on - or even look like doing; when we are 2-0 up and coasting and we replace our striker for an experiment and lose points within minutes. On paper, midtable will be a reasonable outcome for the season. However, when the league takes shape and we are a couple of wins off the play-offs then poor decisions will come under scrutiny. To accept mediocrity and missed opportunities because “well, nobody expected any better” is to promote mediocrity.

You can bet your house that barring injuries Evans and Smallwood will start against Norwich.

You're right, you two do have circular discussions with each other. It's because one of you fails to see or at least reply adequately to the key points the other one makes. Hint: it's not him.

The way I see it is Mowbray knows the score at this level, he knows where we are lacking and the type of player we need to improve. I just do not see him wanting to spend 7 million of precious funds on an unproven teenager. How this transfer came about is a mystery to me. Is it because Venky’s will only release cash for young English talent, i.e sell on potential? This summer’s transfers suggest so. Was it a case of spend it on BB or lose it? If that’s the case and ‘there’s more where that came from’, then fine, I suppose. But 7 million on 2/3 proven pros could have seen us right up there in a wide open league, instead we’ve bought ‘potential’, that yes, sometimes works out a treat, but often these lads just don’t kick on like people hoped. It is a hell of a gamble for the modern day BRFC, so lets hope it’s the former for our and this ‘project’s’ sake.

There won't be any change in the way we play until Smallwood and Evans are split up by Reed in the centre of midfield, Rothwell is given a run and some proper wingers are signed. At the moment there is no sign of Evans and Smallwood being split up or Rothwell playing or playing some proper wingers. So we are stuck with out of position wingers meaning we have no width and two centre midfielders that won't or can't pass or move forward.

And for a team who nearly always plays two stoppers In midfield we don't half concede a lot of goals it was the same under GB.

Dack looks lost without Graham on the pitch IMO

I never mentioned if he were injured - you're making it up again. A tired Graham is better than no Graham on the pitch - look what happens when he goes off. Yesterday was another example. The best manager at Ewood since Hughes is Sam Allardyce. No one else gets near.

You are talking far too much sense here Biz. You must try harder to get into the gloom and doom mood. I totally agree with much of what you say. Far from awful, I've really enjoyed most of the games this season and been impressed with some of the football that we are trying to play. Of course, there are players who will gradually be replaced - Mowbray said that himself last month. Most of my friends believe we are heading in the right direction with exactly the right manager at the helm and have enjoyed their football again over the last eighteen months or so. There is a positive vibe about the club - something that has been missing for a long time. I was very happy that the owners signed Mowbray up on a long term contract as it gives him the time to build the club up from the foundations. At long last the manager, players, club officials and owners are finally on the same page, along with the majority of the fanbase. Long may it continue

How many newly promoted Championship clubs can you name that have spent £7 million on a player that by mid December hasn't started a game. If we can afford to spend £7 Million on a sub who may develop then perhaps we ought to be aiming for the play offs.

Mowbray isn't the man to take us forward in my opinion. You have to be a tough nut in he warnock mould or a very good coach to get out of this division and Mowbray is neither. Where is the evidence he can solve the continuing defensive weakness ? Why can't he see graham has to stay on the field even if he is tired? Then there's the brereton farce and the poor summer transfer window. So many question marks over the manager I don't see why you have such blind faith in him

It's all very well talking about it but there is no sign of it on the pitch

I agree with your point that the best defence is to be playing in your opponents half buts that's not so easy when you're playing with a back six.

Watching the games and Listening to TM , it was fairly easy to work out that we would be prioritising a striker. CF is arguably the most important position in the team the only position we dont have nearly enough cover. Every good team has ample mainline options plus cover. Whichever way you look at it the manager doesn’t trust BB to do that job yet. Armstrong and Dack have been largely ineffective in that role and so as a manager he must be petrified of Graham getting injured. Every other position / player is open to being replaced by better quality additions and some are needed more than others but I couldn’t see past a striker two weeks ago and I still can’t. Prediction of what they’ll do / try to do remains: 1) Striker on loan (experience in Champ) 2) Reed - Perm 3) Chapman - loan to perm or perm As well as BB made perm. Can see Palmer return plus some loans for the likes of Travis and Nuttall. Note - A fully fit Davenport will be like a new signing. Highly rated at City and now at Rovers. Played most of his competitive games in the Champ last season and could easily have a ‘Reed’ like impact. I can see Reed, Travis and Davenport being medium to long term replacements for Smallwood and and Evans in the first Xl

You know what’s equally as frustrating and leads to me getting fed up? The idea that buying players is akin to a supermarket... How much would you sell Lenihan or Nyambe for? Take that figure and double it for any similar aged but prem experienced players. Then look at someone like Graham, and find an effective similar replacement on reasonable wages under 25. What would be the cost of a lightning quick and quality final ball winger to be established in this division? All those “glaring” weaknesses aren’t going to be covered by 7m. Hopegully, if we do sign more players, particularly younger- they’ll be given more time than Brererton has been, before they’re labelled a “baffling clanger”

I’d say up top is a problem area though?

Mowbray has to have a very good window in January. The defence/GK (specifically individual errors) are the positions costing us goals at an alarming rate. There is very little quality competition/cover in any position back there so that needs to be a priority. We need to score 3 to win most weeks recently, and sometimes 4 and 5. If Mowbray thinks this isn't a massive issue and is 'just where we are' then he's in the wrong job. He has some tough decisions to make. Re the GK, does Mogga bring someone else in like he wanted to in summer or does he stick with Raya and hope that one day he will mature and stop costing us games? Same with Lenny and Nyambe. Bell is just not worth persevering with IMO, he's a liability and for a defender his concentration is appalling. Williams is not having a great season either. Mulgrew is not what I'd call a solid defender either. We basically have 4 defenders and the GK capable of giving goals away every week through avoidable individual errors and/or rank bad defending. Lunacy. A left-winger must surely also be a priority. And back-up for DG. The £7m paid for BB looks crazier every day...

What does Brereton offer that Nuttall doesn’t?

Not that one about looking good in training again----please!! I thought that had disappeared with Anderson's lad.

The logic of putting him on was correct by Mowbray. Two up and seemingly comfortable with no real pressure on him. The basics weren't even there. Whether it's the pressure of the fee, something in his head or anything else but clearly the lad has a big problem. I'm not attaching any blame to him for the debacle of the last 25 minutes but in the bigger picture Brereton is becoming a real worry and potentially an Albatross around Mowbrays neck.

How the heck are we affording Maupay or Adams?

Very rare for any club to go for a wholesale rebuild in January. Surely we should be looking at players who will make a difference turning draws into wins? I am concerned our only two Premier League class players- Dack and Reed- could both leave. We will look extremely ordinary without them.

I’m going to take the positives from the last 2 games, we should have had 6 points and were for the majority of the games the better team. That is promising against 2 of the better /form teams in the league. Just need to cut out the moments of madness and close out games. A decent left back and a striker who can hold the ball up are needed.

It also adds weight to the argument that perhaps, at this point in our development as a team under Mowbray, that spending such a large sum on a player unable to provide competition was not a wise idea.

It did, in that Graham made way for him. Obviously the sub was not the main reason (forced or otherwise) for our collapse but you are naive to suggest that it had no impact on the game. Brereton didnt contribute positively. Graham was our best player pre-substitution. Uncharacteristically missing the point. Rayas idiocy was undoubtedly the trigger and the catalyst for 2 dropped points, but it was 2 nil at that time, why the total collapse? And more importantly, its far from the first time its happened! Every time it does you are closed minded, you investigate what caused it on the day, mistake or whatever, oblivious to the theme that theres on overall problem occurring, we keep throwing away points from favourable positions! It is not the sign of an efficient, fully functioning side. And youve put it down to a fluke goal, a bad ref decision, an individual error, whatever it is, and you might be right on them individual days, but totally naive to the overall issue. We are 22 games in. In that, we threw 2 points away at Ipswich, we got hammered from a winning position at Bristol City, we threw away 2 points at home to Villa, we threw 2 points away to Forest, we lost from a winning position at Swansea, we threw away 2 points against a 10 man Boro and again we threw away 2 points today. And almost topping all of these off, we were a penalty hitting the crossbar away from throwing a way a 3-0 lead from our best 80 minutes of the season. 16 points that we have thrown away, compared to 31 that we have. Is it reasonable to expect all of them to have been kept? No. But is that a worryingly high amount of points thrown away? Definitely. Is it fitness, is it psychological, is it tactical, is it a lack of quality, probably a bit of everything but it needs addressing. Brereton will continue to be a massive talking point due to his price tag, whether you like it or not. When he came on today he was poor, whereas Graham again was superb. On Graham youve backed yourself into a corner constantly writing him off and even last week contesting my claim that hes been easily one of our star performers this season. People acknowledge that hes yet to start, and we are basing it on sub appearances, but that all adds to the mystery.

Some astute points already made. Agree with bigdog –most frustrating game this season. Highly annoying and Mogga’s interview, typically dour but sensible, didn’t help improve feelings in my household. Young side, we’ve just come up and so on –well yes, and before the start of the season I would have been happy with mid-table but some of the positions we find ourselves in with these games, it doesn’t really require genius to manage a game for a better result. The BlueNoses looked dispirited and the worst side I’ve seen here this season –no pressing of the ball, no urgency and some aimless long punts to little effect. So 2-0 up, without doing anything special in appalling conditions and on 76 mins Raya goes crackers rushing out for a ball and gives away a pen. Gardner (who galvanised them a little when he came on before that) duly converts. So 13 mins to survive by intelligent game management. Nah. They now have a little belief (something not present for the previous 79 mins). On 80 mins, can’t remember exactly how but we lose the ball, Gardner picks it up centrally and I lean over to wife and have time to say 3 times “he’s going to slot it inside Nyambe.” All Ryan has to do is make sure that his man is not going to get the ball –he seems to get mesmerised in no man’s land, the ball is duly slotted inside him and they score. 2-2. Cue head shaking from players and fans’ ire. So:- Where is the backbone when you need it? The leadership? The game management? The grit? At 2-0 nil up you work just as hard if not harder-didn’t happen. Lazy passing, not working as a unit. Agreed on the new personnel required –odd that such a large sum was used on a player who neither plays, or plays out of positon or doesn’t seem that effective On Graham –why should a team fall apart defensively when he goes off? Doesn’t account for a stupid goalie rush of blood and brainless right back defending. Agree that it was inevitable that his clockwork/fitness would run down in games and a replacement was necessary. Not sure Brereton is the answer. Looked like a floppy schoolboy to me today but it wasn’t his fault we drew Armstrong scored but just doesn’t seem interested to me-sulking because he is on the wing? Reed looked busy and lively and at it-effective centrally I would have thought Tony’s beloved 4231. No issue with it as such but strange that what is effectively a back 6 can leak so many goals. Perhaps that just comes down to players and ability. What is absolutely striking to me is the paucity of flair going forward. You could argue that today, in appalling conditions, that it didn’t really matter and was less of an issue and especially when you go 2-0 up. Perhaps that is more for another time, when we are drawing and can’t open a side up. One other thing –Raya cost us the game? Nope. He gave them some hope and it was 2-1 with 13 to go. That’s when you need the leadership and grit I mentioned above from all your players. Didn’t see it and the inevitable happened.

Mowbray did pick them and they got us into a comfortable 2-0 lead with 15 mins left to play. If these players were as bad as some on here are making out then surely that would never have happened - we should be getting rolled over week in week out if you believed the pundits on here, since we have no decent full backs, no proper wingers, no central midfield, no creativity going forward, no commanding centrehalf - it's a miracle that we not 20 points adrift at the foot of the table really ? Raya cost us two points today - not Mowbray, not Brereton, not a mentality of sitting back or anything else. It was a brainfart moment from the goalkeeper which gifted them a way back into a game that was all but won up to that point. And if anyone thinks that Mowbray didn't read him the riot act after the game then they obviously don't sit as close behind him as we do - he was absolutely livid on the touchline in that second half

In fairness there were at least two defenders in front of him. One of them blocked his shot. It's baffling to me that he is being singled out. He had a few decent touches and I don't recall him doing anything bad. We looked a combination of lazy and nervous at 2-0 up. Lenihan played one absolutely shocking pass to Mulgrew. Now if Brereton did that, there would be uproar on here. Nyambe and Bell lost the ball a number of times, they were also caught out of position. People need to ask themselves why are they singling Brereton out. It seems some fans on here focus on a particular scapegoat and regardless of what they do, they will always be blackened. You could list out the players who fell into that category over the years.

How is it extreme? It sums up the Brereton situation quite aptly. We’ve spent all that money but you think it shouldn’t be a discussion point because “oh well it’s too late now”.

You call me close minded and say I’m only looking at the bad parts of Souness, what are you doing with Mowbray? What is “being successful” in your eyes? Promotion and consolidation at first attempt is a reasonable target isn’t it? Doesnt have faith in youth? Why have Lenihan, Nyambe and Raya all been in his team then? Also - someone with such lack of confidence in young players surely wouldn’t spend their entire budget on Brererton, Armstrong, Davenport etc. Just because you think Travis and Nuttall are ready! Close minded much? Duff was a top level premier league player and Dunn was on his day. Even Brian Laws would’ve had us sweeping teams aside, Berkovic another “top level” player. Souness did a good job but his approach is archaic, Football has well and truly moved on. Google “Souness Dwight Yorke Training”. Chances of Mowbray signing someone then doing that? What you actually want from that promotion season is to be one of the top budgets in the league again, and I’m with you on that.

But Mowbray got out of this division before.

@Ewood Ace responded with the same point as I was going to make. You judge based on what people say rather than what people do. There have been no signs of us changing our style on the pitch, we still play direct, long ball, playing the percentages football. I judge on what I see on the pitch, not on soundbites in interviews which until they are carried out mean nothing. He has been accused of being overly loyal to his favourites, he Smallwood for example has had numerous poor games but he continues to be selected, rather than moving Reed central or the far more technically capable Rodwell who he signed. He has been overly loyal to Armstrong, who in the main has been poor this season. 2 more of his signings, Rothwell and Palmer who both are capable of perhaps making our team more technically proficient, have in the main been kicking their heels on the subs bench all season. Even with the personnel at his disposal, if he does genuinely want to play a more passing based style, he seems reluctant to use the players that he presumably brought in to help implement it, and there have been no signs of these changes thus far. Football is all about results anyway, there is no right and wrong way to play. But just commenting on all of this Mowbrays vision nonsense.

I have to say, I thought football had moved on from Souness in 2003 so to hear him or his style suggested as “what this club needs” in 2018 is hilarious. If I was asked “what this club needs” right now, my answers wouldn’t include a change of manager. The priorities for me; the return of fans, patience in the younger players, manager and staff, and more investment from the owners in the team and academy.

Brereton needs game time and quick but playing him in the U23s will be almost impossible, politically, unless he was recovering from injury (e.g. Davenport). It would be a huge embarrassment to all concerned plus, could you imagine Nuttall’s face if you told him he was on the bench for the U23s so Brereton could get some form? Nuttall is going to have to go out on loan to L1 to get the experience he need. Brereton needs something to happen, either a great and plausible excuse to play him in the reserves (albeit they now play against stronger opposition - these are PL team reserves after all) or (God forbid) for Graham to have a spell out. Although I’m nowhere near a fan (yet) Brereton has been unlucky in that Graham is having an Indian Summer in his career, is enjoying his football and bang in form. Importantly, Graham’s style is also integral to how the team performs, and at present the Danny-shaped hole is not looking like being filled by the Ben-shaped piece and some serious work is required to do so. A bit like what Allardyce did to Davies at Bolton all those years ago. Purely and simply we have no option up top to hold the ball up when Graham goes off. £7m doesn’t buy much these days it seems.

I know what you mean and I have to agree. He was SOOOO poor when he came on. Looked cold and disinterested to me. But I haven’t scouted him for months and I don’t watch him everyday in training. The people who have and do, rate him really highly. It’s a tough one and depends on what investment we have. If we’re serious about going up then you have to be prepared to buy up talent and potential in every position. Either way, we need more strikers who do the job Graham does. If we want to go up then for me the following needs to happen over the next four windows: Be prepared to improve every position in terms of quality. Sell Dack for £25m+ in the summer. Bell, Williams, Smallwood, Conway, Downing, Evans replaced in first eleven and sold or prepared to be on the bench. Mulgrew and Graham maintain their fitness and performance levels or be replaced. Raya, Nyambe, Lenihan, Armstrong, Brereton, Rothwell, Davenport, Reed (hopefully) to be developed to Premiership level. Team built around them.

I'd say 5 points is being pretty optimistic to be honest. I see us being much further behind, maybe as much as 10-15 points. Teams around us will gain momentum as we stumble our way through the season without ever picking up a proper run of form, whilst the better clubs will be able to hold onto winning positions in a way we simply can't. Barring a very good January transfer window, which I am not expecting, I foresee a decent but uninspiring mid-table finish with a lot of uncertainty as to whether we can progress as we go into the summer.

If anyone was under any illusion that BB is ready to challenge Danny Graham then the last 25 mins of today’s game should have clarified that he isn’t..

Lack of upper body strength. He's been earmarked for a run in the under 15's at some point although Mogga has his eye on a big fat 14 year old lad from Chorley FC who may be above him in the pecking order. Waggott is currently negotiating for t'Chorley lad but won't go above £12m.

He would look good in most positions because he works his socks off, is a good tackler, tidy and has a brain. Putting him in the middle wouldnt stop him getting forward. There is no reason why at times we shouldn't expect our centre midfielders to get forward and be creative. We should put him in the middle and put Rothwell on the wing, particularly at home. A game like today was there for the taking if we were braver.

He cost us three points. The end.

What's sad is that the playoffs are there to be taken this season. Better investment in the summer and either a coach or a different manager who could organise a defence and this could have been a very interesting season. As it stands it's going to be a season of wasted opportunities, with poor summer investment meaning we're still a long way from even being back to where we were three years ago, let alone when Venky's first darkened the doors of Ewood with their presence.

2-2, then. Mowbray needs to be careful. Letting the fans down like this repeatedly will become almost as insidious as losing matches. We're already at the point where unless we're 3 or 4 goals up we can't trust the team to see the game out. That's not a situation that can continue for long.

Corry Evans has got better without Jason Lowe in the team. Coincidence?