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True , one slight problem though ...

Gary Bowyer was not their manager ...

Blackpool were managed by Ian Holloway who has left his last two clubs with them on the brink of relegation, something Bowyer has yet to 'achieve' in his career.

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Even if Rhodes goes there's no way we are going down, I don't even think we'd be in a relegation fight. We lost to Wolves but we played well enough to draw and with a bit better from the officials we might have won.

What's most frustrating about the team is that individually we have quite a few good players.

IS THAT YOU KEAN?

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Look at the last 2 seasons and the number of assists that he gets. He is one of the best in the league.

I don't dispute he's a good player but he's nowhere near one of the best players in the league. He's a solid Championship wide-man and can provide well for goal machines like Rhodes or Gestede, but he's no more than that for me. He's not a game-changer, if he was he'd either be gone by now or would at the very least have had some clubs chasing him.

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I don't dispute he's a good player but he's nowhere near one of the best players in the league. He's a solid Championship wide-man and can provide well for goal machines like Rhodes or Gestede, but he's no more than that for me. He's not a game-changer, if he was he'd either be gone by now or would at the very least have had some clubs chasing him.

Are you really talking about GB there ?

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Bang on. I was going to write on here about how Gaz will likely get a result on Saturday, as he usually does when he's under a little pressure. That being said we need to remember that we're now 20 goals shy of where we were last season. It's a huge ask. Who is making up that shortfall? Delfouneso? Browny? Not a cat in hells chance. I'd wager they won't reach 5 between them all season. Very, very worrying. If that window slams shut and Rhodes has gone then we are goosed.

Even if Jordan does get his usual 20-25 goals we're still relying on a lot of players who do not have good goalscoring records chipping in fairly regularly under a "system" which has only ever seen the strikers score with any remote form of consistently.

Who else was scoring our goals before Gestede arrived? We must have had a couple of others contributing. Was it Cairney? Conway? Marshall? I can't remember. All I know is the players we have in the first eleven at present, Rhodes aside, have not historically put the ball in the net regularly... and that should be a huge concern even if we do keep Rhodes.

Are you really talking about GB there ?

GB gives it a right good go and does ever so well given the circumstances. You're so negative yoda. Real fans can see what he's trying to do here, y'know.

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Even if Jordan does get his usual 20-25 goals we're still relying on a lot of players who do not have good goalscoring records chipping in fairly regularly under a "system" which has only ever seen the strikers score with any remote form of consistently.

Who else was scoring our goals before Gestede arrived? We must have had a couple of others contributing. Was it Cairney? Conway? Marshall? I can't remember. All I know is the players we have in the first eleven at present, Rhodes aside, have not historically put the ball in the net regularly... and that should be a huge concern even if we do keep Rhodes.

GB gives it a right good go and does ever so well given the circumstances. You're so negative yoda. Real fans can see what he's trying to do here, y'know.

Now where have I heard that before ?

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Even if Jordan does get his usual 20-25 goals we're still relying on a lot of players who do not have good goalscoring records chipping in fairly regularly under a "system" which has only ever seen the strikers score with any remote form of consistently.

Who else was scoring our goals before Gestede arrived? We must have had a couple of others contributing. Was it Cairney? Conway? Marshall? I can't remember. All I know is the players we have in the first eleven at present, Rhodes aside, have not historically put the ball in the net regularly... and that should be a huge concern even if we do keep Rhodes.

From memory Marshall got 6, Conway 4 and Cairney 3. Certainly no regular scorers there. There's a huge onus on the midfielders to chip in this season but other than Marshall/Conway hitting similar numbers to last season you're hard pressed to look for others. Koita perhaps but it's a big ask. Gaz needs to give one of the centre mids freedom to push forward but he seems absolutely hellbent on not allowing them to do that. Crossing the halfway line or playing a forward pass is a sin. Edited by Gavlar Somerset Rover!
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Blackpool were managed by Ian Holloway who has left his last two clubs with them on the brink of relegation, something Bowyer has yet to 'achieve' in his career.

Yet being the operative word here.

No matter what Holloway has done at his last 2 clubs, he still took relegation favourites in this league into the PL and played some great football whilst doing it.

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Yet being the operative word here.

No matter what Holloway has done at his last 2 clubs, he still took relegation favourites in this league into the PL and played some great football whilst doing it.

The point is that for all his faults Bowyer has had two full seasons at this club, and although hasn't got us promoted has kept us consistently in the top half looking upwards at the top six rather than down below.

In those same 2 years Holloway has departed 2 clubs with them both bottom of the league.

I don't really see how Bowyer can be a poor manager on the above basis whilst Holloway seems to get all the slack in the world and is considered a 'proper' manager. Sure Holloway had great success at a club that matched him for being bonkers, but has also had more recent significant failures.

And whilst Bowyer hasn't matched Holloway's promotion success nor has he abandoned ship with the club on a one way ride to relegation.

Its not fair to say that Blackpool got promoted as relegation favourites thanks to Holloway's management skills yet completely ignore his catastrophic failure at Millwall and shambles at Palace.

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The point is that for all his faults Bowyer has had two full seasons at this club, and although hasn't got us promoted has kept us consistently in the top half looking upwards at the top six rather than down below.

In those same 2 years Holloway has departed 2 clubs with them both bottom of the league.

I don't really see how Bowyer can be a poor manager on the above basis whilst Holloway seems to get all the slack in the world and is considered a 'proper' manager. Sure Holloway had great success at a club that matched him for being bonkers, but has also had more recent significant failures.

And whilst Bowyer hasn't matched Holloway's promotion success nor has he abandoned ship with the club on a one way ride to relegation.

Its not fair to say that Blackpool got promoted as relegation favourites thanks to Holloway's management skills yet completely ignore his catastrophic failure at Millwall and shambles at Palace.

Palace who he got promoted too? Yes he did badly when they went up, and Millwall was a disaster, but then he had no funding either. Id contend your point saying we are looking upwards at the top 6 under Bowyer, I don't think we are. Its only the fact that he's had more money than most of the other teams in the league thats stopped the decline being worse than it could have been. Do you think we have in any way punched above our weight under Bowyer?

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Palace who he got promoted too? Yes he did badly when they went up, and Millwall was a disaster, but then he had no funding either. Id contend your point saying we are looking upwards at the top 6 under Bowyer, I don't think we are. Its only the fact that he's had more money than most of the other teams in the league thats stopped the decline being worse than it could have been. Do you think we have in any way punched above our weight under Bowyer?

I don't think we've punched above our weight, though that is because I don't agree with the use of the term, particularly in this division.

We could, and probably should, have finished higher last season. I think Bowyer's first season was a successful one, given the changes across the board that there had been and the crisis that had occurred the season before. To turn around a slow motion car crash inherited from Singh, Kean, Berg and Appleton and finish 8th in his first season whilst completely overhauling the squad was excellent. The amount of money the club was paying is a separate issue, given we know the sort of players the money was being spent on. We have Bowyer's predecessors to thank for that.

Last season was an underachievement, but by no means a disaster. As disaster would have been relegation or thereabouts, but we were well clear of that all season whilst better run clubs like Brighton, Wigan and Reading struggled away all season.

I don't agree Bowyer has had more money than most other teams in this league. The wage bill he inherited and has been required to drastically reduce it over a 2 year period by getting rid of people like Best who were killing the club with their contracts. How much cash has Bowyer paid out for players in 2 years? I'd guess about £4 million maximum, and there's no evidence that any of his signings have been big money wage earners. Compare to the resources on offer at clubs such as QPR, Fulham, Leicester, Norwich, Middlesbrough, Derby, Forest, Bournemouth, Wigan, and this summer Leeds and Burnley and I don't think Bowyer's spending has come close to those.

Other than Ipswich and maybe Brentford did any of the teams that finished above us last season spend less on transfer fees than us?

OK, so Bowyer inherited a very expensive squad on huge money. But were any of those players he inherited, bar Rhodes, fit for this club and for a promotion battle? No they weren't. They had to go for financial and footballing reasons, and whilst that process has occurred Bowyer has kept us clear of trouble, which whilst not the promotion we all hoped for could have been a lot worse.

Last season has been and gone. I was disappointed with how it went and I've been disappointed with the summer. Cairney going was a huge blow for me and on the evidence of Saturday we might regret his departure more than first thought. Gestede was always going to depart if we didn't get promoted.

But the owners have made the decision to stick with him. Some people agree with that, and it seems a growing number don't agree with that.

I'm personally indifferent. I could understand if the people throwing £20 million a year into a black hole had fancied a change and had sacked him, but at the same time I also recognise that the situation at the club in trying to get it on an even keel and away from FUP that it has been far from plain sailing for Bowyer.

Its pointless trying to compare Bowyer to someone like Karanka for example, because Karanka has had the luxury of a solid foundation to build upon, a healthy transfer kitty and scope to increase the wage bill free from FUP considerations. If Middlesbrough had been in the state we were in in 2013 then I doubt Karanka would have gone near them with a barge pole.

So onto the third season we go. Given our trials this summer I would like Bowyer to be able to steer us through to a stage where we can go out and strengthen properly without the need to cut costs, get rid of wasters and worry about trying to lift the embargo. I think he deserves a chance to work in conditions enjoyed by the Karanka's and Clement's where money can be spent on decent players without worry. Because up until now I don't think he's had that opportunity. He's brought in a lot of players, because a lot have had to leave, but the vast majority have been cheap signings (most expensive Marshall at £1 million).

Having said all that I recognise that all the above becomes irrelevant if our results in the immediate future are not good enough. No matter what, a football manager should be ultimately judged on results. So far we're 2 losses from 2, so not a good start, and he deserves stick for yet another woeful cup exit, and will deserve stick if we lose again on Saturday.

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The point is that for all his faults Bowyer has had two full seasons at this club, and although hasn't got us promoted has kept us consistently in the top half looking upwards at the top six rather than down below.

In those same 2 years Holloway has departed 2 clubs with them both bottom of the league.

I don't really see how Bowyer can be a poor manager on the above basis whilst Holloway seems to get all the slack in the world and is considered a 'proper' manager. Sure Holloway had great success at a club that matched him for being bonkers, but has also had more recent significant failures.

And whilst Bowyer hasn't matched Holloway's promotion success nor has he abandoned ship with the club on a one way ride to relegation.

Its not fair to say that Blackpool got promoted as relegation favourites thanks to Holloway's management skills yet completely ignore his catastrophic failure at Millwall and shambles at Palace.

Palace went up under Holloway and i doubt Millwall had a gargantuan squad and a 30 million overspend. He was always firefighting there.

Would I employ Holloway and want to work with him? No chance, way too unpredictable to build something lasting. And a bit gormless for my liking.

Meanwhile here, Bowyer has certainly underperformed with the support, facilities, cash, time and players at his disposal. Hardly suprising really with nothing on his CV to show otherwise. A million and one others could also have underperformed just as easily. I've supported change for donkeys now. We conceed for fun, almost as many as we score and it's unprofessional and totally unacceptable. We are still shy a decent right back and don't get me started on the way he has handled the keeper situation. I remain amazed at his reluctance to build from the back.

My other concern this time round is unity, sense of purpose and belief within the dressing room. I simply cannot see how it has improved since last season. Once eroded it can be a very slippery slope ahead as a long season unfolds. Can only see the mood at Ewood worsening as well.

I said pre-season there were worse teams than us knocking about. But every fixture I see looks daunting! Fancy being scared of Huddersfield! No disrespect to them. All and sundry score against us. Bad times.

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Thanks for the reply JH.

I understand your position, my feelings are different in:

The starting position - he took over a squad that was capable of easily staying in the league, but obviously werent being managed correctly.

He has only had to sell 3 players (Dann, Cairney and Gestede), the others we have paid off with GB being allowed to bring in replacements - there's an argument that other managers may have got more out of some of those players.

He's had resources to bring in 30+ players, so even if thats only 4m in transfer money, how much is it in signing on fees, wages etc, and a lot of that money has been wasted on people he has subsequently got rid off. Some he has spent well, but overall we are in decline.

It's impossible to get a perfect comparison, as nothing is equal, and sometimes a manager can be a perfect or awful fit witha football club.

I'd agree we should judge him on results. he seems to pull a good result out when he desperately needs one, lets hope he pulls a few out.

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Blackpool were managed by Ian Holloway who has left his last two clubs with them on the brink of relegation, something Bowyer has yet to 'achieve' in his career.

Not sure who one of those clubs was but the other was Millwall.

Now given he inherited a team massively struggling and had a terrible start, and given they were one of the smaller clubs and budgets in the league - probably one of the favourites for relegation, I don't think it's that massive a botch. Certainly not doing much worse than expectations there.

But you know what, the issue isn't how others are doing with other clubs but how Bowyer has done with us. Boy, he can spot a player, but with the talented squad he assembled he has twice taken a team capable of playoffs to comfortably missing out. That's failure, and no matter how great Big Mick is or how crap Holloway is, the fact remain, independently, Bowyer twice underachieved with what he had.

It'd be a logical assumption to assume he'll do so a third time, especially as the initial reports are we've the same problems as always.

Personally I think we'll stay up. There's 2 clubs that are basket cases (Forest and Leeds) a club more insolvent than us (Bolton) and am not sure the clubs that got promoted are all that good. Certainly not last years Wolves and Brentford. Of them I reckon the latter may also suffer second season syndrome and not do so well. So that's around 7 clubs I reckon aren't that good who'll be competing for relegation. Make that 8 with Rotherham. Odds are we'll do better than three of them - or three will do worse than us - as there's still a fair bit of quality in the squad - Marshall, Conway, Kilgallon, Rhodes, the full backs when they get forward. In fact under another manager I doubt even with our much reduced squad we'd be worried about relegation. Shows how bad things are under Bowyer that we're contemplating it.

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Not sure who one of those clubs was but the other was Millwall.

Now given he inherited a team massively struggling and had a terrible start, and given they were one of the smaller clubs and budgets in the league - probably one of the favourites for relegation, I don't think it's that massive a botch. Certainly not doing much worse than expectations there.

But you know what, the issue isn't how others are doing with other clubs but how Bowyer has done with us. Boy, he can spot a player, but with the talented squad he assembled he has twice taken a team capable of playoffs to comfortably missing out. That's failure, and no matter how great Big Mick is or how crap Holloway is, the fact remain, independently, Bowyer twice underachieved with what he had.

It'd be a logical assumption to assume he'll do so a third time, especially as the initial reports are we've the same problems as always.

Personally I think we'll stay up. There's 2 clubs that are basket cases (Forest and Leeds) a club more insolvent than us (Bolton) and am not sure the clubs that got promoted are all that good. Certainly not last years Wolves and Brentford. Of them I reckon the latter may also suffer second season syndrome and not do so well. So that's around 7 clubs I reckon aren't that good who'll be competing for relegation. Make that 8 with Rotherham. Odds are we'll do better than three of them - or three will do worse than us - as there's still a fair bit of quality in the squad - Marshall, Conway, Kilgallon, Rhodes, the full backs when they get forward. In fact under another manager I doubt even with our much reduced squad we'd be worried about relegation. Shows how bad things are under Bowyer that we're contemplating it.

Can't agree with you on Holloway.

If you think effectively relegating Millwall in his only full season in charge after they had been in this division for 5 years counts as doing no worse than Bowyer then we'll just have to disagree.

If Holloway was any good he'd have found a way of keeping Millwall up on their limited resources. Smaller clubs with smaller budgets have managed it. In my opinion Holloway is a very unique type of manager who has a very unique way of managing. It worked wonders at Blackpool because that club itself is quite unlike any other at this level, it worked for a very short and critical time at Palace when they were in the play-offs before things quickly unravelled.

Bowyer's biggest 'failure' has been that at 2 attempts he hasn't got this club promoted. Now we can talk about player turnover and wage spending all day long. We can talk about underachievement. The reality is that only 3 clubs can go up and there are a lot of other teams who all feel they should be getting promoted.

Does failing to get Middlesbrough promoted make Karanka a bad manager? Because in the end, play-off final or not, he has had better conditions to work in than Bowyer, a bigger budget than Bowyer and yet here he is managing in the Championship with Bowyer. Same goes for Steve McClaren. Failed to deliver his target of promotion at 2 attempts, sacked at Derby because of that, but that doesn't make him a bad manager, otherwise he wouldn't have gone straight into the Newcastle job.

Does not getting us promoted make Bowyer a bad manager? In my opinion no. I can accept that we underachieved quite substantially last year, as I personally believe the squad we had was capable of the top 6, but in my view there is a difference between a manager who doesn't get a team promoted and a manager that leaves a club getting relegated.

If Bowyer was that bad or that much of a failure we would have spent time in the bottom half of the division and been in the relegation picture. But we haven't.

I've already said that in view of last season's underachievement it would have been understandable had the owners wanted more for their money and made a change. For whatever reason they didn't and are planning on giving Bowyer more time. I'm fine with that, because I think that given the changes that the club has had to go through these last 2 years finishes of 8th and 9th are by no means the catastrophic failure that some feel they were.

What happened last season has been and gone. Promotion wasn't achieved, a top ten finish was. Better sides than us failed to achieve promotion also (Derby, Boro, Wolves) whilst others (Wigan and Brighton) spent the season in and around the bottom 3 despite starting off as favourites.

Now we're onto another season and its a blank slate for me. 2 losses from 2 is poor. I'm angry and disappointed about the cup performance but I thought we were unfortunate against Wolves. If we win on Saturday then I'll be happy again.

If we lose our next 3 then I'll probably be agreeing with most on here that its time for a change, because as difficult as Bowyer's job has been and as much as I would like to see him get through the embargo, the club simply cannot risk going into League One.

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Can't agree with you on Holloway.

If you think effectively relegating Millwall in his only full season in charge after they had been in this division for 5 years counts as doing no worse than Bowyer then we'll just have to disagree.

If Holloway was any good he'd have found a way of keeping Millwall up on their limited resources. Smaller clubs with smaller budgets have managed it. In my opinion Holloway is a very unique type of manager who has a very unique way of managing. It worked wonders at Blackpool because that club itself is quite unlike any other at this level, it worked for a very short and critical time at Palace when they were in the play-offs before things quickly unravelled.

Bowyer's biggest 'failure' has been that at 2 attempts he hasn't got this club promoted. Now we can talk about player turnover and wage spending all day long. We can talk about underachievement. The reality is that only 3 clubs can go up and there are a lot of other teams who all feel they should be getting promoted.

Does failing to get Middlesbrough promoted make Karanka a bad manager? Because in the end, play-off final or not, he has had better conditions to work in than Bowyer, a bigger budget than Bowyer and yet here he is managing in the Championship with Bowyer. Same goes for Steve McClaren. Failed to deliver his target of promotion at 2 attempts, sacked at Derby because of that, but that doesn't make him a bad manager, otherwise he wouldn't have gone straight into the Newcastle job.

Does not getting us promoted make Bowyer a bad manager? In my opinion no. I can accept that we underachieved quite substantially last year, as I personally believe the squad we had was capable of the top 6, but in my view there is a difference between a manager who doesn't get a team promoted and a manager that leaves a club getting relegated.

If Bowyer was that bad or that much of a failure we would have spent time in the bottom half of the division and been in the relegation picture. But we haven't.

I've already said that in view of last season's underachievement it would have been understandable had the owners wanted more for their money and made a change. For whatever reason they didn't and are planning on giving Bowyer more time. I'm fine with that, because I think that given the changes that the club has had to go through these last 2 years finishes of 8th and 9th are by no means the catastrophic failure that some feel they were.

What happened last season has been and gone. Promotion wasn't achieved, a top ten finish was. Better sides than us failed to achieve promotion also (Derby, Boro, Wolves) whilst others (Wigan and Brighton) spent the season in and around the bottom 3 despite starting off as favourites.

Now we're onto another season and its a blank slate for me. 2 losses from 2 is poor. I'm angry and disappointed about the cup performance but I thought we were unfortunate against Wolves. If we win on Saturday then I'll be happy again.

If we lose our next 3 then I'll probably be agreeing with most on here that its time for a change, because as difficult as Bowyer's job has been and as much as I would like to see him get through the embargo, the club simply cannot risk going into League One.

Thanks for the well thought out reply even if I massively disagree! Good to see discussion and disagreement can be had without name calling etc.

Just to clarify on Millwall I'm not trying to compare the two - in fact make a big point about each manager standing on the merits of their own situation. However, just trying to put a bit of context to the Millwall situation and, my main Holloway/Millwall point is that he wasn't too far off expectations - a lower table finish. It's not like he got us, or Derby relegated, but one of the favourites/more likely to teams.

Anyhow Bowyer stands, and imo falls, on his own merit . Firstly the reality that only 3 clubs can get promoted - agree, and it can be a cruel league. The lines between success and failure are marginal (just look at Derby last season.) However, the lines between our failure and success were far from marginal both times. We never really spent time in the playoffs either season and this season was written off by February. So all in all, the gap between success and failure for us is a lot bigger. Had he botched twice in the playoffs I think I might have a different opinion (or possibly not) but the fact is we've been light years away. It's the size of the failure which makes me want to get rid.

Likewise the margins/size of failure were smaller for the other managers but again Bowyer stands and falls on his own situation. I won't lambaste him for not being Mouriniho or Ferguson, nor will I praise him because he's not Ince or K**n.

Secondly you say if Bowyer was that bad we'd be in the bottom half of the table. Again, think that's a bit flawed as the quality we had meant underachieving for us looks like not being top 6 rather than bottom half of the table. For example United under Moyes finished 6th or there abouts. Now they weren't in the bottom half of the table but it's a failure because it's not where a team of that quality should be. They'd never be bottom half, but that's not what failure is graded on in their circumstances. In a similar (although not exactly the same, obviously) way I'd say that failure was regarded as not being top 6, rather than a bottom half finish.

Finally the blank slate idea is daft imo. Why would we do that? If you've had 2 years of under-performing why should that not count against you. Equally if you've done brilliantly for many of the other years previously, surely that should give time and equity when you have a bit of a blip. Form is temporary and all that - and it shows a much better indicator of how a manager is performing. Equally we wouldn't give K**n a blank slate and quite rightly so - it'd be wrong to ignore and invalidate what went before. Now he's no K**n but why GB alone among managers deserves a fresh slate and everything wiped clean I'm not so sure. It's not the way football, or any other thing where you are rated on performance, works. Another analogy on this might be if I had several formal warnings at work, in a 3 strikes and out policy. If I had another one shortly after, just because it was a new academic year the management wouldn't say it only cumulatively counts as one as it's a new year but fire me. My previous conduct/performance would factor into the situation. Same way, Bowyer's performance should.

Agree with you though, league 1 would be a disaster. Then the likes of Williamson and Brown would be our star players, and we'd be longing for the quality of Hanley and Lowe :wacko:

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Can't agree with you on Holloway.

If you think effectively relegating Millwall in his only full season in charge after they had been in this division for 5 years counts as doing no worse than Bowyer then we'll just have to disagree.

If Holloway was any good he'd have found a way of keeping Millwall up on their limited resources. Smaller clubs with smaller budgets have managed it. In my opinion Holloway is a very unique type of manager who has a very unique way of managing. It worked wonders at Blackpool because that club itself is quite unlike any other at this level, it worked for a very short and critical time at Palace when they were in the play-offs before things quickly unravelled.

Bowyer's biggest 'failure' has been that at 2 attempts he hasn't got this club promoted. Now we can talk about player turnover and wage spending all day long. We can talk about underachievement. The reality is that only 3 clubs can go up and there are a lot of other teams who all feel they should be getting promoted.

Does failing to get Middlesbrough promoted make Karanka a bad manager? Because in the end, play-off final or not, he has had better conditions to work in than Bowyer, a bigger budget than Bowyer and yet here he is managing in the Championship with Bowyer. Same goes for Steve McClaren. Failed to deliver his target of promotion at 2 attempts, sacked at Derby because of that, but that doesn't make him a bad manager, otherwise he wouldn't have gone straight into the Newcastle job.

Does not getting us promoted make Bowyer a bad manager? In my opinion no. I can accept that we underachieved quite substantially last year, as I personally believe the squad we had was capable of the top 6, but in my view there is a difference between a manager who doesn't get a team promoted and a manager that leaves a club getting relegated.

If Bowyer was that bad or that much of a failure we would have spent time in the bottom half of the division and been in the relegation picture. But we haven't.

I've already said that in view of last season's underachievement it would have been understandable had the owners wanted more for their money and made a change. For whatever reason they didn't and are planning on giving Bowyer more time. I'm fine with that, because I think that given the changes that the club has had to go through these last 2 years finishes of 8th and 9th are by no means the catastrophic failure that some feel they were.

What happened last season has been and gone. Promotion wasn't achieved, a top ten finish was. Better sides than us failed to achieve promotion also (Derby, Boro, Wolves) whilst others (Wigan and Brighton) spent the season in and around the bottom 3 despite starting off as favourites.

Now we're onto another season and its a blank slate for me. 2 losses from 2 is poor. I'm angry and disappointed about the cup performance but I thought we were unfortunate against Wolves. If we win on Saturday then I'll be happy again.

If we lose our next 3 then I'll probably be agreeing with most on here that its time for a change, because as difficult as Bowyer's job has been and as much as I would like to see him get through the embargo, the club simply cannot risk going into League One.

You've posted a lot of crap, but I respect the time you have put into it and when I can be arsed I will reply to it

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The last couple of seasons we were a top half side who, given a good run, might make the play-offs. This campaign we are a mid to lower table team who could, with a poor run, be involved in a relegation battle. Personally, I think there is still enough quality to finish in the lower half well above the relegation places.

On the pitch there is, in the dug out though?

Imo we were beaten on Saturday by a Wolves side that did not play well. I posed the question then, who will be actually be good enough to beat under this manager?

Not Shrewsbury obviously.

The other most worrying thing for me (apart from bizarre team selections and use of personnel) is the spirit within the dressing room. There really didn't appear to be any burning desire to pull it back to 2-2 when we came out for the second half on Saturday. The game just sort of ambled along like a meaningless training exercise until the late introduction of Koita. Similar comments were made by Radio Rovers when we were trailing in the second half on Tuesday. It's only two games in and obviously too early to say the manager has lost the dressing room already but by the same token even at this early stage the players certainly don't look as though they're prepared to run through a brick wall for him and the team either.

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Can't agree with you on Holloway.

If you think effectively relegating Millwall in his only full season in charge after they had been in this division for 5 years counts as doing no worse than Bowyer then we'll just have to disagree.

If Holloway was any good he'd have found a way of keeping Millwall up on their limited resources. Smaller clubs with smaller budgets have managed it. In my opinion Holloway is a very unique type of manager who has a very unique way of managing. It worked wonders at Blackpool because that club itself is quite unlike any other at this level, it worked for a very short and critical time at Palace when they were in the play-offs before things quickly unravelled.

Bowyer's biggest 'failure' has been that at 2 attempts he hasn't got this club promoted. Now we can talk about player turnover and wage spending all day long. We can talk about underachievement. The reality is that only 3 clubs can go up and there are a lot of other teams who all feel they should be getting promoted.

Does failing to get Middlesbrough promoted make Karanka a bad manager? Because in the end, play-off final or not, he has had better conditions to work in than Bowyer, a bigger budget than Bowyer and yet here he is managing in the Championship with Bowyer. Same goes for Steve McClaren. Failed to deliver his target of promotion at 2 attempts, sacked at Derby because of that, but that doesn't make him a bad manager, otherwise he wouldn't have gone straight into the Newcastle job.

Does not getting us promoted make Bowyer a bad manager? In my opinion no. I can accept that we underachieved quite substantially last year, as I personally believe the squad we had was capable of the top 6, but in my view there is a difference between a manager who doesn't get a team promoted and a manager that leaves a club getting relegated.

If Bowyer was that bad or that much of a failure we would have spent time in the bottom half of the division and been in the relegation picture. But we haven't.

I've already said that in view of last season's underachievement it would have been understandable had the owners wanted more for their money and made a change. For whatever reason they didn't and are planning on giving Bowyer more time. I'm fine with that, because I think that given the changes that the club has had to go through these last 2 years finishes of 8th and 9th are by no means the catastrophic failure that some feel they were.

What happened last season has been and gone. Promotion wasn't achieved, a top ten finish was. Better sides than us failed to achieve promotion also (Derby, Boro, Wolves) whilst others (Wigan and Brighton) spent the season in and around the bottom 3 despite starting off as favourites.

Now we're onto another season and its a blank slate for me. 2 losses from 2 is poor. I'm angry and disappointed about the cup performance but I thought we were unfortunate against Wolves. If we win on Saturday then I'll be happy again.

If we lose our next 3 then I'll probably be agreeing with most on here that its time for a change, because as difficult as Bowyer's job has been and as much as I would like to see him get through the embargo, the club simply cannot risk going into League One.

Great post, I agree with it 100%.

I saw enough in the Wolves game to think we will be okay this year. Defence is still a total mess but Koita looks a handful, Guthrie is what we need in midfield, while an attacking setup of Rhodes, Conway, Barrow and Marshall in addition to the two names above looks pretty bloody good to be honest. Hardly relegation material.

Of course lose Rhodes and take Guthrie out with an injury and its a different story..

If Bowyer pulls it together we will pick up wins. Theres no real reason to doubt he will as he did so the last two years. Certainly not to the point we get relegated.

A more likely relegation scenario, in my humble opinion, is if we pot Bowyer and make a really bad appointment as we did with Berg, Ince and Appleton. That's what I worry about.

I'd like to know who would pick the replacement.

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Great post, I agree with it 100%.

I saw enough in the Wolves game to think we will be okay this year. Defence is still a total mess but Koita looks a handful, Guthrie is what we need in midfield, while an attacking setup of Rhodes, Conway, Barrow and Marshall in addition to the two names above looks pretty bloody good to be honest. Hardly relegation material.

Of course lose Rhodes and take Guthrie out with an injury and its a different story..

If Bowyer pulls it together we will pick up wins. Theres no real reason to doubt he will as he did so the last two years. Certainly not to the point we get relegated.

A more likely relegation scenario, in my humble opinion, is if we pot Bowyer and make a really bad appointment as we did with Berg, Ince and Appleton. That's what I worry about.

I'd like to know who would pick the replacement.

Imagine that attacking side with Souness or Pearson or some other hard-nosed prick of a manager. Would score for fun!

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