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Another comment on the stupidity of VAR from last night.

When Stones gave the ball away in the first few minutes and then got a block in on the shot, he was pulling the arm of the striker all the time. Why wasn't that given as a penalty using VAR?

At what point does the referee decide to consult?

For the actual penalty, it seemed like the guy who got his foot accidentally stood on when he tried to force contact with the defender complained, thus leading the ref to eventually look at the screen. You are going to start getting players appealing for even the softest touches in the box and forcing the ref to review VAR if incidents like last night are given.

 

 

 

Edited by Hasta
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1 hour ago, BlackburnEnd75 said:

so If an offence involves contact it is penalised by a direct free kick or penalty kick.

There isn't a different set of rules for fouls inside and outside the box

Ah, ok, well in answer to your question it's the rule about tripping. If someone stands on my trailing foot as I'm bursting into the box I can't move that leg forward and so I fall over. That's just the laws of physics. Penalty. Just because it doesn't specifically say 'stands on players foot' doesn't mean those rules don't cover it. Just as it doesn't say:  'player rounds keeper and keepers momentum clips players foot who may have already been falling due to trying to avoid keeper but there is still a slight contact which makes player naturally fall over. The keeper didn't intentionally bring him down and he was already falling but contact happened and caused the player to hit the deck'  Those happen hundreds of times a season in the leagues and they all are penalties.

The penalty yesterday happened in a meaningless friendly. Imagine the uproar if we get one given against us in the semi-final (I know, I know), or alternatively, if Maradona's 'hand of God' goal was chalked off in our favour. In theory it stops cheats and stops refs favouring 'bigger' teams. Unfortunately football is not a perfect world and some decisions are just not clear cut or open to interpretation no matter how many times they are watched, as the Italy goal shows and the rules you quote show.  I personally think it's a horrible system which will take a lot of the spontaneity out of the game and ultimately make it far less interesting to watch. I'd certainly not bother watching live football anymore if VAR became the determining factor in how games unfolded. I like shit refs, I like human error from good refs, I like the emotion that comes from feeling the ref is against you and the way it gets the crowd going. Football has become sanitised to a point where I find Prem games a chore. No tackling, no needle, just 'athletes' screaming when anyone comes near them. VAR is just an extension of that. Give me League 1 any day, and I don't mean that in a way that tries to justify our fall from grace.

 

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12 hours ago, AllRoverAsia said:

Disagree. Most would not have seen it as a penalty in the first place....like the Ref, the Italians, the Commentators and may I say most viewers, on first view pre microscope.

As @BlackburnEnd75 alludes contact is not an automatic penalty, or should not be.

However VAR puts the onfield official under tremendous pressure to find something now that his original decision has been openly questioned.

VAR is a can of worms.

Key post. Everyone but the referee was expecting the corner. Including the Italians.

We aren’t in Kansas anymore.

We can expect two penalties in every WC match this Summer.

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Said it before, I’ll say it again. VAR should only be consulted after a goal and only if the goal is disputed. Not to check every real time decision.

Had the corner been given nobody would have batted an eyelid.

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VAR is fine in rugby but it isn't right for football. Rugby is largely a stop-start game of set pieces in which the ball is often hidden from view, including when tries are scored. VAR is useful  in that respect. Football is (or should be) a free flowing, spontaneous game and VAR will only serve to make it less of a spectacle. Wembley left a sour taste because the decision didn't feel right. It's quite likely VAR will play a significant part and possibly ruin the World Cup. 

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13 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Said it before, I’ll say it again. VAR should only be consulted after a goal and only if the goal is disputed. Not to check every real time decision.

Had the corner been given nobody would have batted an eyelid.

Good shout although you're still potentially going to run into problems with situations that are subjective and open to interpretation.

Technology works for black and white situations such as is the ball over the line, or in other sports is the ball in or out in tennis or with the aid of CGI in cricket would the ball have hit the stumps etc. It's no help at all in situations that are open to interpretation. Plus in the other sports such as tennis or cricket there are natural breaks in play after every ball or point which there aren't in football.

Im amazed so many in the media who were all for VAR are surprised  that it has been an unmitigated disaster thus far. I'd go even further than you Stu and scrap VAR altogether just sticking with goal line rechnology. At an absolute pinch maybe you could check for any disputed offsides after a goal is scored.

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  • 3 weeks later...
23 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

VAR awarded a penalty

I didn't know a video recording could award a penalty!

Ref should looked at the video earlier. You can't be bringing the players back out once you've blown for half time, what a mess.

Edited by frosty
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13 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

"I'm sure that is historic. I've never seen anything like it!"

Unprecedented scenes in Germany as VAR awarded a penalty after the half-time whistle had been blown ? https://t.co/WxtEMhaXMJ

Exactly VAR is farce and bringing into football a massive football. 

Leaving aside the farce surrounding bringing the players back out, how on earth was that a deliberate handball anyway (which it has to be under the laws of the game)? The defender had no chance of getting out of the way of the cross.

The second goal in that game was comical as well. Boy had a complete open goal and all the time in the world to stroke the ball into the net but somehow managed to hit the post, and only the sharp spin on the ball took it over the line. The look of relief on the striker's face was hilarious.

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  • Backroom
15 hours ago, S8 & Blue said:

 

I’ll take the title of Luddite proudly, I hate VAR with every fibre of my being.

I'm not sure VAR is the issue, it's the incompetent morons in the hierarchy of football that seem incapable of implementing it. 

It's not a popular view, but I would be a fan of giving managers 2 challenges per game (red cards, yellow cards, penalties, goal reviews for fouls - not offsides as it's become a mess. Just stick with lino decisions, you'll win some, lose some. )

This takes it totally out the hands of the officials who are clearly struggling to decide when and when not to use it. And you generally don't get more than 2 contentious decisions against you in a game.

The main  argument I have heard against this is managers abusing it. i.e. Mourinho challenging a blatant yellow in 89th min of game to break up the flow and get to have a sideline chat with players.

Easily resolved for me. Have a Monday panel, and if they decide a manager has abused it VAR challenge privileges revoked for 1 game.  Do it again in a season, revoked for 2 games etc etc.

Once a team has a dodgy penalty and/or red given against them in a game and they're powerless to challenge it, they'll soon learn not to abuse the system. 

 

Edit- Oh, and after the challenge the VAR makes the decision. None of this ridiculous running to side of pitch to look at a monitor.

Manager challenges, ref signals VAR so fans know. Minute later decision comes back, ref signals it, game moves on.  

Edited by Silas
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10 minutes ago, Silas said:

I'm not sure VAR is the issue, it's the incompetent morons in the hierarchy of football that seem incapable of implementing it. 

It's not a popular view, but I would be a fan of giving managers 2 challenges per game (red cards, yellow cards, penalties, goal reviews for fouls - not offsides as it's become a mess. Just stick with lino decisions, you'll win some, lose some. )

This takes it totally out the hands of the officials who are clearly struggling to decide when and when not to use it. And you generally don't get more than 2 contentious decisions against you in a game.

The main  argument I have heard against this is managers abusing it. i.e. Mourinho challenging a blatant yellow in 89th min of game to break up the flow and get to have a sideline chat with players.

Easily resolved for me. Have a Monday panel, and if they decide a manager has abused it VAR challenge privileges revoked for 1 game.  Do it again in a season, revoked for 2 games etc etc.

Once a team has a dodgy penalty and/or red given against them in a game and they're powerless to challenge it, they'll soon learn not to abuse the system. 

 

Edit- Oh, and after the challenge the VAR makes the decision. None of this ridiculous running to side of pitch to look at a monitor.

Manager challenges, ref signals VAR so fans know. Minute later decision comes back, ref signals it, game moves on.  

I see your logic and perhaps this would be an improvement, but I just don't understand why it needs to be done at all.

Unnecessary complication and fanny on for what reason?

To stop managers and armchair fans whinging? Too much money at stake in the big games? Is it for a sponsorship revenue stream? 

The decisions that VAR is tackling are completely subjective. This just passes the contentious decisions further up the chain. The logical conclusion of this is a commitee that awards goals and results after the game has been played.

Bad decisions even themselves out, and human error is part of the beauty of the game.

It's just football, the way it should be.

I'll never get on board with this tripe.

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18 minutes ago, Silas said:

I'm not sure VAR is the issue, it's the incompetent morons in the hierarchy of football that seem incapable of implementing it. 

It's not a popular view, but I would be a fan of giving managers 2 challenges per game (red cards, yellow cards, penalties, goal reviews for fouls - not offsides as it's become a mess. Just stick with lino decisions, you'll win some, lose some. )

This takes it totally out the hands of the officials who are clearly struggling to decide when and when not to use it. And you generally don't get more than 2 contentious decisions against you in a game.

The main  argument I have heard against this is managers abusing it. i.e. Mourinho challenging a blatant yellow in 89th min of game to break up the flow and get to have a sideline chat with players.

Easily resolved for me. Have a Monday panel, and if they decide a manager has abused it VAR challenge privileges revoked for 1 game.  Do it again in a season, revoked for 2 games etc etc.

Once a team has a dodgy penalty and/or red given against them in a game and they're powerless to challenge it, they'll soon learn not to abuse the system. 

 

Edit- Oh, and after the challenge the VAR makes the decision. None of this ridiculous running to side of pitch to look at a monitor.

Manager challenges, ref signals VAR so fans know. Minute later decision comes back, ref signals it, game moves on.  

I can see how this would work practically, but it doesn't change my biggest problem with it, which is that it simply takes all the joy out of the act of scoring, and it doesn't do anything about how a huge number of contentious decisions are just because they're not black & white. 

All this "but it works in rugby" you get from some quarters is entirely misplaced. I watch lots of rugby league, and even in a game where technical offences are much more clear cut, you still get controversial decisions all the time. This is even after taking 2 minutes or so to reach the decision, which is bad enough when you've got 6-10 scores a game. When so much emotion in football is often invested in one goal in a game, there is no way of brining in VAR in a way which doesn't mean that the high you get watching your team score is seriously dampened. 

Think I might've posted something similar a few pages back,. so sorry for drowning on about it, but I genuinely dread this becoming a permanent fixture in English football. 

 

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4 minutes ago, S8 & Blue said:

 

Unnecessary complication and fanny on for what reason?

To stop managers and armchair fans whinging? Too much money at stake in the big games? Is it for a sponsorship revenue stream? 

 

To stop bad decisions and make the game fairer. 

Particularly game changing decisions.

For all the stick it gets recently it can actually work.  

Was watching an MLS game this last week where a stupid penalty was given by lino flagging. Sliding tackle in box, bounced up off defenders knee onto his hand by accident.  But obviously,  ref had to take linos word.

Went to VAR, took about 30 secs , penalty overturned, game back on. 

Don't we all want errors like that stamped out?

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Just now, Admiral Nelsen said:

....which is that it simply takes all the joy out of the act of scoring,

I totally get this sentiment and I'm with you. Has killed the atmosphere recently.

But with my way with no offsides, a goal could only be challenged for a foul - so maybe a handball before scoring, or a foul in immediate build up of play- and how often do those happen.

And again,  if a manager takes the piss with it, they would be punished.

Not saying it wouldn't occasionally kill the atmosphere of scoring, but still think it would be minimal.

And a perfect example, Henry's goal would have been chalked off and Ireland would have gone to the World Cup. Or was it Euro?

Anyway,  that decision would have took about 15 seconds. 

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Just now, Silas said:

To stop bad decisions and make the game fairer. 

Particularly game changing decisions.

For all the stick it gets recently it can actually work.  

Was watching an MLS game this last week where a stupid penalty was given by lino flagging. Sliding tackle in box, bounced up off defenders knee onto his hand by accident.  But obviously,  ref had to take linos word.

Went to VAR, took about 30 secs , penalty overturned, game back on. 

Don't we all want errors like that stamped out?

You know what? Not particularly.

And certainly not at the expense of the game itself.

The amount of terribly soft decisions I've seen already from VAR don't sit right with me, and still it is a subjective decision to even go to the screens - this won't stop cries of cheating or bias at all, in a lot of ways it will make for even more conspiracy theories.

The more I think about it the managerial referral idea would be a horror show too.

Plus, there's nothing better then getting a bad decision going your way! They even themselves out.

Olsson dived!

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Just now, S8 & Blue said:

... and still it is a subjective decision to even go to the screens - 

That's what I'm trying to solve.

I feel like the refs hav their heads up their arses at moment.

And I don't blame them. For all the stick we give them, fact is refereeing a top level game is a very hard job to do, and now their heads are full of - should I be checking this, should I hav reviewed that? 

It must be a frigging nightmare with everything else they're trying to keep an eye on.

My way leaves them to carry on as normal, and referee the match to the best of their ability, and a couple of times a match their decisions might get contested, and a final decision will be fed to them. 

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  • Backroom
18 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

Think I might've posted something similar a few pages back,. so sorry for drowning on about it, but I genuinely dread this becoming a permanent fixture in English football. 

 

I'm not a huge fan of it myself, although I would like to see game deciding clangers eradicated somehow.

But I'm sorry to say it's coming wheher you like it or not. Can't see anyway it can be stopped now.

So, I'm just trying to look at options to make it better,  cos I too worry it could be damaging to the game in it's current form.

Have to say though,  all those people saying they're happy to take bad decisions on the chin - will you still stick to that if we end up getting a howler of a penalty decision in 89th min of playoff final to keep us in League 1 another season?! 

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16 hours ago, S8 & Blue said:

What would have happened if the ball came back off the keeper/post and into play?

What half are we in??

I’ll take the title of Luddite proudly, I hate VAR with every fibre of my being.

Presuming the referee would have blown his whistle frantically for half-time again if the penalty had hit the post or something. :lol:

Yeah I'm not a fan of VAR either, like has been mentioned here before decisions in the game are subjective and I've seen plenty of decisions reversed by VAR that I'm not sure should have been. 

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On 16/04/2018 at 22:23, chaddyrovers said:

"I'm sure that is historic. I've never seen anything like it!"

Unprecedented scenes in Germany as VAR awarded a penalty after the half-time whistle had been blown ? https://t.co/WxtEMhaXMJ

Exactly VAR is farce and bringing into football a massive football. 

First VAR and now this?? The game I loved is dead. :(

 

(Sorry, I’ve got a new app)

25C083AC-CEE2-4751-8BD9-D172E91952FB.jpeg

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On 17/04/2018 at 16:56, Silas said:

 - will you still stick to that if we end up getting a howler of a penalty decision in 89th min of playoff final to keep us in League 1 another season?! 

Twas ever thus. I'd take the tried, tested if imperfect 140+ year working model over VAR

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  • 3 weeks later...

VAR messes up due to "software glitch" during Aussie play off final

https://www.a-league.com.au/news/ffa-statement-relation-hyundai-a-league-2018-grand-final

The video in this link shows the offside.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-06/ffa-reveal-reasons-behind-var-controversy-a-league-grand-final/9732640

Edited by perthblue02
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