Venky’s, HMRC…The Plot Thickens ?

[J*B]

8 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I am sorry to all but once again I’m filing this as just another case of Venkys incompetence and not a smoking gun 

They paid the tax bill. This threat from HMRC was never a winding up order. They had issues releasing the funds, but that was resolved and the business has since spent money on non-critical issues, ie transfers and the such 

Unfortunately when you are run by careless people on shoe string budgets these things happen

I agree, in no way a smoking gun. But it does point to the below, unless someone can explain to me otherwise:

1) If Venkys get found guilty we will go into administration quickly - the club is insolvent without them.

2) If the appeals for running costs aren’t granted, the club will go into administration quickly  

3) The case with the Indian government will continue for an unnamed amount of time and during that time we will not be able to strengthen the squad as finance is restricted. 

4) Every window whereby we cannot strengthen the squad it will get weaker and we will go closer to League One. 

If the club goes into admin, the club will get a points deduction then administrators will take over and try to sell the club for a reasonable offer to service the clubs debts. The owners wouldn’t have input into the sale and an offer wouldn’t be able to come from Venkys if they’re either under investigation or found guilty. 

Based on that, it’s my belief that we would get better ownership via administration and it’s in the clubs benefit for Venkys to either be found guilty or the judge to not grant payments into the club. 

[Miller11]

To provide a different perspective from the Trust Board…

I don’t agree the owners deserve any credit for doing the bare minimum, and the 13 year mess we are in is entirely of their making.

I came back on to the Trust board in 2020 after being involved during its inception. I’d say that, broadly, the Trust has had a number of different phases, driven by the desires of the fan base and the actions of the owners.

Stage 1 - actively perusing ownership stake

Stage 2 - campaigning against the owners

Stage 3 - focusing on fan led review

Stage 4 - attempting to work with the club to re-engage fans 

At the back end of last season stage 4 seemed the logical step. Thoughts on the owners ranged from praise to apathy. Personally I felt in limbo with them so why not try and make the best of it, genuinely felt we could make some positive contributions. While I think we have succeeded in some ways it is clear that major issues remain that undo a lot of the good things we’ve tried to achieve. Stage 4 was always going to have to be a long term process, but it’s been hampered from almost day one by owner driven issues.

As little as a month ago things were far less bleak than they are now, and we have since hurtled into a period of crisis. It’s been a few years but was inevitable under Venky’s. We now need to regroup and consider our approach.

Of course this needs to be driven by the members. We receive regular communications from them via email, messages, in person. We canvas opinions broadly at AGM’s, and I absolutely agree with the points Glen and Josh have made here. Our minutes need to be on the website from our MOU meetings, I’m not sure why they aren’t and will get them on. And Josh, you should be receiving regular comms, particularly after our website and database updates - I’ll chase this.

I can’t give you an accurate percentage without polling, but we have a lot of members who totally disagree with my earlier expressed thoughts on the owners. And broadly speaking those at our last AGM thought there were no issues with our ticket prices. So it’s not as easy as just calling for heads.

What we do need to do is look at the way forward now. Effectively what does phase 5 look like. Any members who want to have an input here, get in touch.

[J*B]

4 minutes ago, Mike Graham said:

We send out an email newsletter most months.  This includes the notes of MoU meetings and Trust Board meetings.

Our next Board meeting is Tuesday next week.

I’m not getting these newsletters Mike, how do I get this sorted? 

[RevidgeBlue]

4 minutes ago, J*B said:

I agree, in no way a smoking gun. But it does point to the below, unless someone can explain to me otherwise:

1) If Venkys get found guilty we will go into administration quickly - the club is insolvent without them.

2) If the appeals for running costs aren’t granted, the club will go into administration quickly  

3) The case with the Indian government will continue for an unnamed amount of time and during that time we will not be able to strengthen the squad as finance is restricted. 

4) Every window whereby we cannot strengthen the squad it will get weaker and we will go closer to League One. 

If the club goes into admin, the club will get a points deduction then administrators will take over and try to sell the club for a reasonable offer to service the clubs debts. The owners wouldn’t have input into the sale and an offer wouldn’t be able to come from Venkys if they’re either under investigation or found guilty. 

Based on that, it’s my belief that we would get better ownership via administration and it’s in the clubs benefit for Venkys to either be found guilty or the judge to not grant payments into the club. 

What do you mean if Venkys "get found guilty"?

Of what?

[jim mk2]

2 minutes ago, oldjamfan1 said:

Trust Board members have started this very conversation in the early hours of today Jim. My view is that it is time to focus on the 'critical' aspect of that description.

 

Interesting

From the outside the club appears to be reaching a critical point. We could be heading down a financial plug hole off the field and about sink into the lower divisions on it.

The gloves should be off IMO. Hard questions need to be asked, and answers given. No fobbing off from the "management"

The Trust may already have done so (I don't know) but it would also help if they could speak directly to the organ grinders and not the monkeys.

Regular and hard hitting press releases would be good. This isn't criticism, all the best to all those involved. 

 

[J*B]

4 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

To provide a different perspective from the Trust Board…

I don’t agree the owners deserve any credit for doing the bare minimum, and the 13 year mess we are in is entirely of their making.

I came back on to the Trust board in 2020 after being involved during its inception. I’d say that, broadly, the Trust has had a number of different phases, driven by the desires of the fan base and the actions of the owners.

Stage 1 - actively perusing ownership stake

Stage 2 - campaigning against the owners

Stage 3 - focusing on fan led review

Stage 4 - attempting to work with the club to re-engage fans 

At the back end of last season stage 4 seemed the logical step. Thoughts on the owners ranged from praise to apathy. Personally I felt in limbo with them so why not try and make the best of it, genuinely felt we could make some positive contributions. While I think we have succeeded in some ways it is clear that major issues remain that undo a lot of the good things we’ve tried to achieve. Stage 4 was always going to have to be a long term process, but it’s been hampered from almost day one by owner driven issues.

As little as a month ago things were far less bleak than they are now, and we have since hurtled into a period of crisis. It’s been a few years but was inevitable under Venky’s. We now need to regroup and consider our approach.

Of course this needs to be driven by the members. We receive regular communications from them via email, messages, in person. We canvas opinions broadly at AGM’s, and I absolutely agree with the points Glen and Josh have made here. Our minutes need to be on the website from our MOU meetings, I’m not sure why they aren’t and will get them on. And Josh, you should be receiving regular comms, particularly after our website and database updates - I’ll chase this.

I can’t give you an accurate percentage without polling, but we have a lot of members who totally disagree with my earlier expressed thoughts on the owners. And broadly speaking those at our last AGM thought there were no issues with our ticket prices. So it’s not as easy as just calling for heads.

What we do need to do is look at the way forward now. Effectively what does phase 5 look like. Any members who want to have an input here, get in touch.

Thanks for this Duncan, really interesting read.

I think the Trust would benefit from more transparency which could be hard to do. One way, which would be relatively simple, would be to have a members section of the Trust website. Within that section you could:

Upload all minutes of meetings

Live stream the AGM

Have transparent members polling - so members can see what the majority of the membership think. 

I also think you could perhaps do with improving comms on here, especially as clearly there’s different opinions at board level of The Trust (which is great, by the way). Can I suggest that official comms come through @Rovers Trust and non official comms through personal accounts? We could also add something to highlight the Trusts board members on here so that people can differentiate members, much like we do with the moderation team.

If someone could look into my membership that would be great - I’ve been through my emails this morning and have received no comms at all since rejoining just before the AGM at Billington Brass Band Club. 

[Herbie6590]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

Thanks Mike. I agree with most of your post but I honestly think the highlighted bit is going to be a divisive thing to say. The people to blame for the whole mess Rovers are in are them and I will certainly not give them any credit for what appears to be something that, as owners is obligatory.

I have faith in what you are trying to achieve and wish you well in your end goal but I ask you to please keep comments like that private and then no one can feel aggrieved.

I agree…owners of a corporate body have a legal & fiduciary duty to pay all of their obligations on time. To do anything else is fraudulent. Giving credit to any owner of any corporate body for that matter, for doing the absolute bare minimum legal & ethical requirement is damning with faint praise. 

[oldjamfan1]

2 minutes ago, J*B said:

Thanks for this Duncan, really interesting read.

I think the Trust would benefit from more transparency which could be hard to do. One way, which would be relatively simple, would be to have a members section of the Trust website. Within that section you could:

Upload all minutes of meetings

Live stream the AGM

Have transparent members polling - so members can see what the majority of the membership think. 

I also think you could perhaps do with improving comms on here, especially as clearly there’s different opinions at board level of The Trust (which is great, by the way). Can I suggest that official comms come through @Rovers Trust and non official comms through personal accounts? We could also add something to highlight the Trusts board members on here so that people can differentiate members, much like we do with the moderation team.

If someone could look into my membership that would be great - I’ve been through my emails this morning and have received no comms at all since rejoining just before the AGM at Billington Brass Band Club. 

Point taken Josh but I do think this is what currently happens.

Some good ideas in there as well.

 

[J*B]

Just now, oldjamfan1 said:

Point taken Josh but I do think this is what currently happens.

Some good ideas in there as well.

 

Genuine question - are you part of the Trust? If so, I had absolutely no idea that you are. 

[smiller14]

We have the club many of our fans deserve. The Stockholm syndrome on show from many is absolutely startling. Posts today on social media range from 'we should be to grateful' to 'they deserve respect'. 'More interested in what happens on the pitch' was another corker.
 

As if the owners have no bearing. It's why 2011-2012 was so unbearable - so many people either don't see or won't see the issues at hand. I genuinely don't know if I'd have the energy again to join protests or actively campaign against the board, as the reactions and attitudes last time were so demoralising.  I remember travelling from Cardiff for protests, yet most fans were happy to sit on their hands, bar the occasional outburst (Bolton and Wigan at home spring to mind). I remember Glen (and others) were often threatened and criticised. 

[speedies gonna get ya.]

It's very frustrating that the main narrative is the reason the Venkys can't send funds over to the club is due to changes to Indian tax laws. It appears most people are not aware they are being investigated for potential dodgy dealings, which directly involve the club and were certainly not done in its best interest. 

This information needs to be spread far and wide but the local and national media don't seem interested. 

[oldjamfan1]

5 minutes ago, J*B said:

Genuine question - are you part of the Trust? If so, I had absolutely no idea that you are. 

I rest my case then 🙂

Joking apart yes I'm a Trust Board member

[J*B]

Just now, oldjamfan1 said:

I rest my case then 🙂

Joking apart yes I'm a Trust Board member

I think we (BRFCS) can do some things quickly off the bat to help our members understand who is who within groups that represent them i.e. The Trust. If anyones interested in this send me a DM and we can come up with a plan. 

[Miller11]

12 minutes ago, J*B said:

Thanks for this Duncan, really interesting read.

I think the Trust would benefit from more transparency which could be hard to do. One way, which would be relatively simple, would be to have a members section of the Trust website. Within that section you could:

Upload all minutes of meetings

Live stream the AGM

Have transparent members polling - so members can see what the majority of the membership think. 

I also think you could perhaps do with improving comms on here, especially as clearly there’s different opinions at board level of The Trust (which is great, by the way). Can I suggest that official comms come through @Rovers Trust and non official comms through personal accounts? We could also add something to highlight the Trusts board members on here so that people can differentiate members, much like we do with the moderation team.

If someone could look into my membership that would be great - I’ve been through my emails this morning and have received no comms at all since rejoining just before the AGM at Billington Brass Band Club. 

Our systems and processes were in an absolutely horrendous state and unfit for purpose, hence the investment in our website. It’s not been as quick as we’d like but we are hoping to implement some of the above very quickly. Live stream of the AGM is a definite one. We also need some more active volunteers for working parties and board members, which we are planning to be more proactive in recruiting for.

I think a Trust board members badge would be great on here. I’ve got the login to our profile, I tend to just use my personal one through laziness and the fact I don’t get ads.

Regarding minutes we are obligated to publish them for both board meeting and MOU meetings, so no excuses there. 

[J*B]

4 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Our systems and processes were in an absolutely horrendous state and unfit for purpose, hence the investment in our website. It’s not been as quick as we’d like but we are hoping to implement some of the above very quickly. Live stream of the AGM is a definite one. We also need some more active volunteers for working parties and board members, which we are planning to be more proactive in recruiting for.

I think a Trust board members badge would be great on here. I’ve got the login to our profile, I tend to just use my personal one through laziness and the fact I don’t get ads.

Regarding minutes we are obligated to publish them for both board meeting and MOU meetings, so no excuses there. 

I've just made the Rovers Trust account adfree FYI

[superniko]

39 minutes ago, J*B said:

I’m not getting these newsletters Mike, how do I get this sorted? 

Likewise, i've been a member for 3 years and haven't received a single piece of communication on anything (newsletters, meeting notes etc.)

[Mattyblue]

22 minutes ago, smiller14 said:

We have the club many of our fans deserve. The Stockholm syndrome on show from many is absolutely startling. Posts today on social media range from 'we should be to grateful' to 'they deserve respect'. 'More interested in what happens on the pitch' was another corker.
 

As if the owners have no bearing. It's why 2011-2012 was so unbearable - so many people either don't see or won't see the issues at hand. I genuinely don't know if I'd have the energy again to join protests or actively campaign against the board, as the reactions and attitudes last time were so demoralising.  I remember travelling from Cardiff for protests, yet most fans were happy to sit on their hands, bar the occasional outburst (Bolton and Wigan at home spring to mind). I remember Glen (and others) were often threatened and criticised. 

What you need to remember is a majority of fans don’t give a toss about CEOs, owners and all the rest of it. Especially when they only really hear about Venky’s when it’s in the LT about another cash injection - so they must be good owners then, no? They keep us alive, I mean look at the empty seats (shit fans), look at Bury.

Rest of the time? Manager and team, that’s it. The fact that the CEO and owner may have just a little impact on said team doesn’t come into their head.

Edited January 15 by Mattyblue

[Dreams of 1995]

34 minutes ago, J*B said:

I agree, in no way a smoking gun. But it does point to the below, unless someone can explain to me otherwise:

1) If Venkys get found guilty we will go into administration quickly - the club is insolvent without them.

2) If the appeals for running costs aren’t granted, the club will go into administration quickly  

3) The case with the Indian government will continue for an unnamed amount of time and during that time we will not be able to strengthen the squad as finance is restricted. 

4) Every window whereby we cannot strengthen the squad it will get weaker and we will go closer to League One. 

If the club goes into admin, the club will get a points deduction then administrators will take over and try to sell the club for a reasonable offer to service the clubs debts. The owners wouldn’t have input into the sale and an offer wouldn’t be able to come from Venkys if they’re either under investigation or found guilty. 

Based on that, it’s my belief that we would get better ownership via administration and it’s in the clubs benefit for Venkys to either be found guilty or the judge to not grant payments into the club. 

I agree wholeheartedly

The consequences of administration are profound, of course. Other clubs have bounced back from this though. I don't think we are a Bury type case. We are an established top level club - and by top level, I mean the top two leagues in the country - and still hold some amazing infrastructure. I still think we are an attractive club to own and do not believe we would struggle to find offers

The reality is that we may face a decade or so fighting back through the leagues, assuming we wind up in League 1 or 2. I've always said I would rather watch us in League 2 and owned by people who care than watch us in the Championship owned by Venkys

It is a matter of pride for me. Growing up away from Blackburn means I've always had it in the neck about Rovers. It used to be easy for me because we were better than everybody else, either on or off the pitch. Nowadays, it is difficult to have pride when you know the truth. Most other fans don't know what goes on at Rovers, and all they see is a club in decline with no fans, who sell all their players and never show ambition. Rather than talk about it over and over you end up just nodding. The Venkys have made what used to be a great source of pride, into a source of embarrassment

[ABBEY]

1 hour ago, 47er said:

The Trust should have more members. It can't be a key pressure group unless its truly representative of the supporters.

It hardly costs a fortune to join. If you're not a member you can't reasonably complain about it.

WHEN ITS GIVING CREDIT TOTHE OWNERS...NO CHANCE

[Dreams of 1995]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

But then surely if they are having to go to an Indian court every three months to release funds to pay basic obligations, I.e tax, then this kind of stuff will now become a regular occurrence?

Just need to give it up as a bad job as this stage, surely? Unfortunately we have the most stubborn, bizarre people possible as owners.

Yes Matty, I agree with this too

I do wonder what the league and even our own financial authorities make of this situation. Effectively, a British registered company is relying on a foreign government to release funds and allow them to comply with UK laws, ie not trade insolvent

Surely this would have some sort of regulation in place. I don't know. It seems a backward way about things with me; but then again, we are talking about a multinational conglomerate here, and nothing is every transparent in those companies

Quite how long a football club can be held to these types of restrictions is unknown to me. I think this may be a first case of this nature

[Miller11]

32 minutes ago, superniko said:

Likewise, i've been a member for 3 years and haven't received a single piece of communication on anything (newsletters, meeting notes etc.)

Can you drop me a DM with your name and email address. I’ll get it sorted

[StubbsUK]

2 hours ago, Hasta said:

Let's not forget the reason this is happening is because the owners have been fraudulently declaring money to be invested in the club which was being used for other non-Rovers related purposes.

This is the elephant in the room, we wouldn't be in any trouble with HMRC if we wern't being used as a way to funnel cash out of the country.

[wilsdenrover]

2 hours ago, Mike Graham said:

There has been very little criticism on Twitter apart from someone saying this is old news and they could not understand why it was released now.  It was not released because I am a lackey of the Club (I can assure you I am not) and it was not given to me to leak to deflect attention from the mess on the playing side.  It is purely factual information.

The ‘news’ is available openly and publicly, perhaps no one had spotted it.  The HMRC letter was dated April 2023 and the Court case was July 2023; this must have been a nightmare of a time for those at Ewood trying to balance the books.

I will explain the reason I put this out.  Firstly I believe the fan base should have a better knowledge of the Club’s financial predicament; if it was something told to me in confidence it would not have been released, as I said above it is in a public document.

Secondly the owners, whether fans like it or not, took the applications to the High Court at no doubt great expense.  They secured payments to Rovers and the HMRC, VAT, staff etc have all been paid.  Whether fans like it or not credit should be given to the owners for this.

The role of the Trust is to try and engage as a critical friend with the owners and their representatives whether they be the Venky’s, the Walker family or the Nolan sisters.  We will continue to try our very best to influence on behalf of our members.

We do not have secret meetings with the Club; if I or other Board members meet with the Club then the whole Trust Board are aware. Clearly we may receive confidential information from time to time - this will never be divulged by any Trust Board member.

 

Are there no circumstances where you’d think divulging information would trump maintaining the trust’s relationship with the board?

 

[broadsword]

Drives me bloody mad when I see "the owners deserve credit" or whatever.

 

They've turned this great club into a basket case. I'll tell you what they deserve, a bloody good barnacle tapping with a coal hammer

[Miller11]

9 minutes ago, wilsdenrover said:

Are there no circumstances where you’d think divulging information would trump maintaining the trust’s relationship with the board?

 

To be perfectly honest in the last 3 and a half years there hasn’t been anything confidential of the slightest bit of interest. 

To answer your question though, there definitely would be instances in theory. Long term health of the club is far more important than anything else.