The Contract Situation

[JHRover]

I've been going on for months suggesting that there has been minimal effort or engagement from the Club to try and keep these players. 

I think Waggott has just confirmed my suspicions. 

I remember when people were saying that it was a ludicrous suggestion that the Club would just sit back and make little/no effort to keep these players - I was called a conspiracy theorist and throwing baseless allegations around and the party line was that the Club had worked tirelessly to make good offers to these players which greedy players/agents had refused.

Not sure how you do that without even speaking to Nyambe's agent.

[JBiz]

On 28/02/2022 at 21:36, 47er said:

But it will cost more money to sign and pay Z than it would to keep Nyambe! Where's the logic?

If we keep playing hard-ball like this, we will  be producing great young players for everybody else for free!

 

All of this ignores a couple of key caveats that neither of us know; 

1. Does he even want to stay?

2. Are his demands acceptable?

I share the concern, but we also shared concerns, when certain players were given ridiculous contracts - some of those academy grads too (Lowe, Shakey Jake Kean et al).

Its a difficult balancing act, especially when our main competitors have 30m + in parachute payments per season before we even take turnover into account!

 

[RoversClitheroe]

In other news Pickering offered a contract offer as a reward for his progress.

If only they had done that with Nyambe, Rothwell and Lenihan

[JBiz]

1 minute ago, RoversClitheroe said:

In other news Pickering offered a contract offer as a reward for his progress.

If only they had done that with Nyambe, Rothwell and Lenihan

I was under the impression they’d been offered deals but rejected.

[simongarnerisgod]

stephen brown has been offered a 3 year contract,he must have impressed in training and with the u23`s,seems he`s the one to replace nyambe,zefuick to me seems a bit of a loose cannon,i think british football has come as a bit of shock to him

[only2garners]

45 minutes ago, JBiz said:

I was under the impression they’d been offered deals but rejected.

They have all had deals offered some time ago but none have signed. They all could choose to sign any time before the end of June.

[chaddyrovers]

On 01/03/2022 at 20:58, rigger said:

He will not get a bigger club than the Rovers.

I agree there

18 hours ago, rigger said:

Perhaps SW should, have some engagement with Nyambe's agent, if he wants to negotiate Nyambe's contract ?

I think the point is Nyambe's agent won't engagement with the club anymore. They were 5 meetings between the last week of January and First couple of weeks in February I read on another social media site 

[47er]

17 hours ago, JBiz said:

All of this ignores a couple of key caveats that neither of us know; 

1. Does he even want to stay?

2. Are his demands acceptable?

I share the concern, but we also shared concerns, when certain players were given ridiculous contracts - some of those academy grads too (Lowe, Shakey Jake Kean et al).

Its a difficult balancing act, especially when our main competitors have 30m + in parachute payments per season before we even take turnover into account!

 

I accept that it is possible that Nyambe could leave whatever was offered. I don't know how much he earns or how much he wants. But its strange that 3 players whose contracts run out at the end of the season all seem likely to leave.

That suggests to me that they feel undervalued but that's merely my opinion. Whatever the truth of it, there clubs don't seem to have this problem at this scale do they? Or have I got that wrong too?

[Admiral Nelsen]

10 minutes ago, 47er said:

I accept that it is possible that Nyambe could leave whatever was offered. I don't know how much he earns or how much he wants. But its strange that 3 players whose contracts run out at the end of the season all seem likely to leave.

That suggests to me that they feel undervalued but that's merely my opinion. Whatever the truth of it, there clubs don't seem to have this problem at this scale do they? Or have I got that wrong too?

 

A good question, I think there's a pretty good chance that this is going on a lot more than we appreciate. I know PNE had a similar situation a year or two ago when four of their best players (Davies, Pearson and maybe Fisher and another?) were all leaving at once. Not sure if all of them left in the end, but most did and it was certainly hanging over them for a while, like our situation has  this season. 

[tomphil]

I'm just assuming the club just didn't fancy 3 or 4 players at once jumping from a 3/5 grand a week to 8 or 10.

Players themselves were probably expecting good offers and a bit of parity with more established pay graders. Their agents sticking their oars in will want the money the likes of Dack and Gallagher are on.

And here we are but i'm pretty sure if they'd made some serious offers in the first place one or two would have signed. Too late once they realize you never really wanted to pay them better money in the first place. 

Would their desire this season have waned had they been given double money 3 year deals in summer though ?  

It's an interesting conundrum as so far it hasn't affected performances, quite the opposite in some cases. Next season will be a mess though losing so many influences and good players so lets not kid ourselves.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, 47er said:

I accept that it is possible that Nyambe could leave whatever was offered. I don't know how much he earns or how much he wants. But its strange that 3 players whose contracts run out at the end of the season all seem likely to leave.

That suggests to me that they feel undervalued but that's merely my opinion. Whatever the truth of it, there clubs don't seem to have this problem at this scale do they? Or have I got that wrong too?

Personally, before this season, I'd have looked to explore other options too as a player.

Nobody expected us to be in this position, in fact most of us expected to go down/be in a relegation scrap! Interestingly, no other clubs are barging the door down to sign any of them 3 either, other than Bournemouth (how genuine that interest was I am somewhat skeptical about).

We don't even know who'll be in charge next season and we're already losing JPVH, Khadra and Giles, so committing to another 3/4 years is a huge call for the 3 players in question. Although none of them will get deals at clubs better than Rovers in my opinion bar maybe Rothwell (who has something like 18 CAREER assists) so not sure where his confidence of being better than us has come from.

My prediction based on the noise I've heard is that Rothwell and Nyambe have both made it very clear they're off (barring promotion I'd imagine but in that scenario I'd be telling both to feck off) but Lenihan will extend.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Mellor Rover

[JBiz]

1 hour ago, 47er said:

I accept that it is possible that Nyambe could leave whatever was offered. I don't know how much he earns or how much he wants. But its strange that 3 players whose contracts run out at the end of the season all seem likely to leave.

That suggests to me that they feel undervalued but that's merely my opinion. Whatever the truth of it, there clubs don't seem to have this problem at this scale do they? Or have I got that wrong too?

I get the feeling this is more of a national / global trend because of clubs cutting back from March 2020 due to income streams falling off a cliff.

Certainly looks that way if you put contracts ending 2022 into transfer market. Arguably the most valuable player in the world still hasn’t committed to arguably the richest club in the world…!

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/statistik/endendevertraege

 

[JHRover]

The Club will try and divide and conquer. They will try and make this out to be an issue with particular individuals, their approach and demands rather than it being a bigger issue with the club.

Easier to accept and blame individuals than face up to a bigger problem.

We can see that with Waggott's comments to the Forum. He's driven a wedge between the situation with Lenihan/Rothwell and that with Nyambe. The first two on the lookout for their final big pay day whereas Nyambe categorised differently, reference to no communication with his agent of course designed to heap responsibility on his camp.

So in the case of Nyambe the aim is to shift nearly all responsibility and blame away from the owners and Club onto Nyambe and his agent. Make them out to be unreasonable in their demands, make out that they weren't interested in staying and that no matter what the Club did it was always going to end in failure.

Of course Nyambe and his agent won't be able to defend that until it is too late and they are elsewhere.

This 'divide and conquer' strategy is to turn attention away from the alternative scenario - one which I firmly believe is the case - which is that the Club is almost entirely responsible for this situation, that the Club has done too little too late and behaved appallingly, like it has towards loyal supporters as well. In an attempt to cut corners and save a few quid in the short term they have blown it big time and are now losing assets.

Not one of the academy lads have signed new deals. Seems strange. Almost as though the common denominator - the Club - has some responsibility for that.

Tried saving a few quid on ticket refunds and price increases = result of collapsing ticket sales and attendances

Tried saving a few quid on getting by with the old pitch = games get called off when the weather is bad in humiliating fashion

Tried saving on contract extensions and pay rises = result is valuable players walk

All part of a big game going on here - losing Nyambe for nothing will rankle both in the stands and in Pune at the summit meeting so best get the BS out there quick.

Shame so many don't see when they are being played and taken for fools. I woke up to it many months ago and I think slowly more and more have.

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, JHRover said:

The Club will try and divide and conquer. They will try and make this out to be an issue with particular individuals, their approach and demands rather than it being a bigger issue with the club.

Easier to accept and blame individuals than face up to a bigger problem.

We can see that with Waggott's comments to the Forum. He's driven a wedge between the situation with Lenihan/Rothwell and that with Nyambe. The first two on the lookout for their final big pay day whereas Nyambe categorised differently, reference to no communication with his agent of course designed to heap responsibility on his camp.

So in the case of Nyambe the aim is to shift nearly all responsibility and blame away from the owners and Club onto Nyambe and his agent. Make them out to be unreasonable in their demands, make out that they weren't interested in staying and that no matter what the Club did it was always going to end in failure.

Of course Nyambe and his agent won't be able to defend that until it is too late and they are elsewhere.

This 'divide and conquer' strategy is to turn attention away from the alternative scenario - one which I firmly believe is the case - which is that the Club is almost entirely responsible for this situation, that the Club has done too little too late and behaved appallingly, like it has towards loyal supporters as well. In an attempt to cut corners and save a few quid in the short term they have blown it big time and are now losing assets.

Not one of the academy lads have signed new deals. Seems strange. Almost as though the common denominator - the Club - has some responsibility for that.

Tried saving a few quid on ticket refunds and price increases = result of collapsing ticket sales and attendances

Tried saving a few quid on getting by with the old pitch = games get called off when the weather is bad in humiliating fashion

Tried saving on contract extensions and pay rises = result is valuable players walk

All part of a big game going on here - losing Nyambe for nothing will rankle both in the stands and in Pune at the summit meeting so best get the BS out there quick.

Shame so many don't see when they are being played and taken for fools. I woke up to it many months ago and I think slowly more and more have.

Will it rankle in Pune? Even if there is an element of public politics, im sure the main driver is money and the way we could have a much better chance of signing them is with more financial flexibility to be able to protect the assets.

They don't seem to care about losing assets for free, Mowbray suggested that he was open minded to selling Rothwell to avoid him going for free and bringing in a couple of players with that money, yet Venkys stubbornly prevented that scenario. 

Also, Buckley, Wharton, Carter and Rankin Costello all signed new deals in the last year as academy lads.

[JHRover]

6 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Will it rankle in Pune? Even if there is an element of public politics, im sure the main driver is money and the way we could have a much better chance of signing them is with more financial flexibility to be able to protect the assets.

They don't seem to care about losing assets for free, Mowbray suggested that he was open minded to selling Rothwell to avoid him going for free and bringing in a couple of players with that money, yet Venkys stubbornly prevented that scenario. 

Also, Buckley, Wharton, Carter and Rankin Costello all signed new deals in the last year as academy lads.

I'm sure it will come up in their discussions - particularly when Mowbray asks for permission/money to go and sign replacements and we've brought in no money from their departures.

As I've pointed out before the situation with Buckley, Wharton, Carter vastly different to that for Nyambe, Lenihan, Travis.

Those players who signed within the last year were on their first contracts which they signed as u23 players and it will have been very easy to upgrade their deals to something more representative of a first team/squad player. They will still be on relative peanuts by the standards of the league and Club. The latter few will also be on relative peanuts in the scheme of things but have now reached senior player age/standard and therefore quite rightly expect an increase on that basis. They are no longer 19/20 years old hoping to break through - they are captains, vice captains and mainstays of the team. The club seems unwilling to reflect that new status in their pay.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, JHRover said:

The Club will try and divide and conquer. They will try and make this out to be an issue with particular individuals, their approach and demands rather than it being a bigger issue with the club.

Easier to accept and blame individuals than face up to a bigger problem.

We can see that with Waggott's comments to the Forum. He's driven a wedge between the situation with Lenihan/Rothwell and that with Nyambe. The first two on the lookout for their final big pay day whereas Nyambe categorised differently, reference to no communication with his agent of course designed to heap responsibility on his camp.

So in the case of Nyambe the aim is to shift nearly all responsibility and blame away from the owners and Club onto Nyambe and his agent. Make them out to be unreasonable in their demands, make out that they weren't interested in staying and that no matter what the Club did it was always going to end in failure.

Of course Nyambe and his agent won't be able to defend that until it is too late and they are elsewhere.

This 'divide and conquer' strategy is to turn attention away from the alternative scenario - one which I firmly believe is the case - which is that the Club is almost entirely responsible for this situation, that the Club has done too little too late and behaved appallingly, like it has towards loyal supporters as well. In an attempt to cut corners and save a few quid in the short term they have blown it big time and are now losing assets.

Not one of the academy lads have signed new deals. Seems strange. Almost as though the common denominator - the Club - has some responsibility for that.

Tried saving a few quid on ticket refunds and price increases = result of collapsing ticket sales and attendances

Tried saving a few quid on getting by with the old pitch = games get called off when the weather is bad in humiliating fashion

Tried saving on contract extensions and pay rises = result is valuable players walk

All part of a big game going on here - losing Nyambe for nothing will rankle both in the stands and in Pune at the summit meeting so best get the BS out there quick.

Shame so many don't see when they are being played and taken for fools. I woke up to it many months ago and I think slowly more and more have.

Whilst some of that may be true, it's happening across the football world, and across the championship.

Fabio Carvalho, Mawson, Hector, Kebano and Seri at Fulham, Basham and Robinson at Sheff United, Zemura, Brady and Anthony at Bournemouth (two had year extensions triggered yday) all out of contract in summer. 

Players want to see what's out there.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I'm sure it will come up in their discussions - particularly when Mowbray asks for permission/money to go and sign replacements and we've brought in no money from their departures.

As I've pointed out before the situation with Buckley, Wharton, Carter vastly different to that for Nyambe, Lenihan, Travis.

Those players who signed within the last year were on their first contracts which they signed as u23 players and it will have been very easy to upgrade their deals to something more representative of a first team/squad player. They will still be on relative peanuts by the standards of the league and Club. The latter few will also be on relative peanuts in the scheme of things but have now reached senior player age/standard and therefore quite rightly expect an increase on that basis. They are no longer 19/20 years old hoping to break through - they are captains, vice captains and mainstays of the team. The club seems unwilling to reflect that new status in their pay.

I'd be asking for a slice of the 15 million from Armstrong seen as we didn't spend a penny of it...

[roversfan99]

4 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I'm sure it will come up in their discussions - particularly when Mowbray asks for permission/money to go and sign replacements and we've brought in no money from their departures.

As I've pointed out before the situation with Buckley, Wharton, Carter vastly different to that for Nyambe, Lenihan, Travis.

Those players who signed within the last year were on their first contracts which they signed as u23 players and it will have been very easy to upgrade their deals to something more representative of a first team/squad player. They will still be on relative peanuts by the standards of the league and Club. The latter few will also be on relative peanuts in the scheme of things but have now reached senior player age/standard and therefore quite rightly expect an increase on that basis. They are no longer 19/20 years old hoping to break through - they are captains, vice captains and mainstays of the team. The club seems unwilling to reflect that new status in their pay.

He can't be questioned on Rothwell leaving on a free when it was Venkys that stopped us from getting a fee from him.

I agree that the mentioned players are different situations, I was just saying that they are all academy graduates and you said that "not one of the academy lads have signed new deals."

The 3 players are ones that presumably expect to be paid a wage befitting 3 key players in a team fighting for promotion, something Venkys seem unwilling to allow.

[JBiz]

35 minutes ago, JHRover said:

The Club will try and divide and conquer. They will try and make this out to be an issue with particular individuals, their approach and demands rather than it being a bigger issue with the club.

Easier to accept and blame individuals than face up to a bigger problem.

We can see that with Waggott's comments to the Forum. He's driven a wedge between the situation with Lenihan/Rothwell and that with Nyambe. The first two on the lookout for their final big pay day whereas Nyambe categorised differently, reference to no communication with his agent of course designed to heap responsibility on his camp.

So in the case of Nyambe the aim is to shift nearly all responsibility and blame away from the owners and Club onto Nyambe and his agent. Make them out to be unreasonable in their demands, make out that they weren't interested in staying and that no matter what the Club did it was always going to end in failure.

Of course Nyambe and his agent won't be able to defend that until it is too late and they are elsewhere.

This 'divide and conquer' strategy is to turn attention away from the alternative scenario - one which I firmly believe is the case - which is that the Club is almost entirely responsible for this situation, that the Club has done too little too late and behaved appallingly, like it has towards loyal supporters as well. In an attempt to cut corners and save a few quid in the short term they have blown it big time and are now losing assets.

Not one of the academy lads have signed new deals. Seems strange. Almost as though the common denominator - the Club - has some responsibility for that.

Tried saving a few quid on ticket refunds and price increases = result of collapsing ticket sales and attendances

Tried saving a few quid on getting by with the old pitch = games get called off when the weather is bad in humiliating fashion

Tried saving on contract extensions and pay rises = result is valuable players walk

All part of a big game going on here - losing Nyambe for nothing will rankle both in the stands and in Pune at the summit meeting so best get the BS out there quick.

Shame so many don't see when they are being played and taken for fools. I woke up to it many months ago and I think slowly more and more have.

 

You can call it “waking up” all you want, but that’s just baiting and patronising anyone who isn’t convinced that we’re the worst run club in the world.

It’s such a shame that there is no middle ground anymore according to your posts, and I just don’t understand the need to constantly seek out a rationale that supports “pointing the finger”.

Perhaps “waking up” to the FACT that the club CANNOT compete with anyone in the league above for wages OR with parachute payments…

You may realise why individuals considering their families, futures and bank balances - might not want to sign for a team (they don’t support like you or I)

[JBiz]

23 minutes ago, Mellor Rover said:

Whilst some of that may be true, it's happening across the football world, and across the championship.

Fabio Carvalho, Mawson, Hector, Kebano and Seri at Fulham, Basham and Robinson at Sheff United, Zemura, Brady and Anthony at Bournemouth (two had year extensions triggered yday) all out of contract in summer. 

Players want to see what's out there.

Precisely. 

[JHRover]

29 minutes ago, JBiz said:

 

You can call it “waking up” all you want, but that’s just baiting and patronising anyone who isn’t convinced that we’re the worst run club in the world.

It’s such a shame that there is no middle ground anymore according to your posts, and I just don’t understand the need to constantly seek out a rationale that supports “pointing the finger”.

Perhaps “waking up” to the FACT that the club CANNOT compete with anyone in the league above for wages OR with parachute payments…

You may realise why individuals considering their families, futures and bank balances - might not want to sign for a team (they don’t support like you or I)

Who said anything about the league above? I'm talking about Championship rivals.

 

[JBiz]

6 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Who said anything about the league above? I'm talking about Championship rivals.

 

Pretty sure said agents would’ve been talking about the league above, and 3 of our rivals are taking aprox 90m in receipts before turnover even starts.

You know this. Why is it such an excuse?

[JHRover]

17 minutes ago, JBiz said:

Pretty sure said agents would’ve been talking about the league above, and 3 of our rivals are taking aprox 90m in receipts before turnover even starts.

You know this. Why is it such an excuse?

So when he joins a non-Premier League club and not Fulham or Bournemouth what will the excuse be then?

Presumably Preston will be offering him £40,000 a week like Patrick Bauer?

[JBiz]

29 minutes ago, JHRover said:

So when he joins a non-Premier League club and not Fulham or Bournemouth what will the excuse be then?

Presumably Preston will be offering him £40,000 a week like Patrick Bauer?

A “When and if” scenario, compounded by a rumour we couldn’t sign someone who Preston took because of wages?

Surely there is better ways to make a point. In terms of Bauer - I thought the manager said it was because he didn’t want to come as an option, a squad player first - that he wanted assurances they wouldn’t give? 

[chaddyrovers]

5 hours ago, Mellor Rover said:

We don't even know who'll be in charge next season and we're already losing JPVH, Khadra and Giles, so committing to another 3/4 years is a huge call for the 3 players in question. Although none of them will get deals at clubs better than Rovers in my opinion bar maybe Rothwell (who has something like 18 CAREER assists) so not sure where his confidence of being better than us has come from.

Well we have to hope for a quick discuss from the Mowbray meeting with Venkys in May. 

5 hours ago, Mellor Rover said:

My prediction based on the noise I've heard is that Rothwell and Nyambe have both made it very clear they're off (barring promotion I'd imagine but in that scenario I'd be telling both to feck off) but Lenihan will extend.

Agree on Lenihan staying. With the other 2 leaving. Nyambe is leaving even if we make the PL

2 hours ago, Mellor Rover said:

Whilst some of that may be true, it's happening across the football world, and across the championship.

Fabio Carvalho, Mawson, Hector, Kebano and Seri at Fulham, Basham and Robinson at Sheff United, Zemura, Brady and Anthony at Bournemouth (two had year extensions triggered yday) all out of contract in summer. 

Players want to see what's out there.

You just got to look at the amount of players who are out of contract this summer and alot of players want to test the market and see what is out there.